alan_fincher Posted February 6, 2020 Author Report Share Posted February 6, 2020 32 minutes ago, pete harrison said: DORY now on Ebay with a number of £65K https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Dory-70-foot-traditional-working-narrow-boat/174174294425?hash=item288d98d199:g:De0AAOSwvwFeMVzH Curiously it is still PoA on "the Duck". Is that a record for any serious attempt to sell an unconverted working boat? As it is £20K more than another FMC motor from the same sellers, I am curious whether most of it is down to Bolinder versus Lister. I suppose motors with Bolinders do only come up very rarely, but even so..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete harrison Posted February 6, 2020 Report Share Posted February 6, 2020 On 26/01/2020 at 17:59, magnetman said: A little birdie told me that the town class motor with the Perkins HD engine in it might be up for sale soon. No comment Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBiscuits Posted February 6, 2020 Report Share Posted February 6, 2020 On 04/02/2020 at 09:32, Athy said: But I can't see how RIMA can stand for Royal Academy for Magical Arts. Medical Definition of rima : an anatomical fissure or cleft Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MtB Posted February 6, 2020 Report Share Posted February 6, 2020 6 hours ago, alan_fincher said: I suppose motors with Bolinders do only come up very rarely, but even so.... I'd be delighted to pay a premium of only £20k for a boat with a Bolly over a similar boat wjth a Lister. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Mack Posted February 7, 2020 Report Share Posted February 7, 2020 8 hours ago, pete harrison said: IBEX back on Apollo Duck at £44950 https://narrowboats.apolloduck.co.uk/boat/fellows-morton-clayton-70-traditional/622118 And on ebay. https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/184151725089 "The bed hole is larger than what is standard in a Josher cabin". So is the back cabin longer than usual (and the engine room forward of the normal position), or have they taken space from the table cupboard and/or range shelf? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ditchcrawler Posted February 7, 2020 Report Share Posted February 7, 2020 This thread is so long this may have been posted already https://www.apolloduck.com/boat/narrow-boats-traditional/625780 Elizabeth at £30000 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paddle Posted February 13, 2020 Report Share Posted February 13, 2020 ARIES & BIRCHILLS NO 2 are now free to a good home in the next round of disposals from the Museum - this doesn't seem to have been posted here yet? There are also rowing boats and other wrecks to fantasise over. https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/refresh/media/thumbnail/41302-further-information-on-the-boats-we-are-rehoming.pdf Offers by 18 May. ARIES had a load of money spent on it forty years ago, according to the thread below, and the same source implies that you therefore won't be getting the motor with the boat/firewood. BIRCHILLS NO 2 had a monster Gardner in it and went like stink, but I think it is a composite boat so should be rather more reasonable a project - anybody know? How did the museum acquire BIRCHILLS - it was in private ownership on loan to the museum thirty years ago iirc - a bit like ARIES. And where did CHILTERN and others from the first round end up? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jrtm Posted February 13, 2020 Report Share Posted February 13, 2020 58 minutes ago, Paddle said: ARIES & BIRCHILLS NO 2 are now free to a good home in the next round of disposals from the Museum - this doesn't seem to have been posted here yet? There are also rowing boats and other wrecks to fantasise over. https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/refresh/media/thumbnail/41302-further-information-on-the-boats-we-are-rehoming.pdf Offers by 18 May. ARIES had a load of money spent on it forty years ago, according to the thread below, and the same source implies that you therefore won't be getting the motor with the boat/firewood. BIRCHILLS NO 2 had a monster Gardner in it and went like stink, but I think it is a composite boat so should be rather more reasonable a project - anybody know? How did the museum acquire BIRCHILLS - it was in private ownership on loan to the museum thirty years ago iirc - a bit like ARIES. And where did CHILTERN and others from the first round end up? Before I bought towy I asked about birchills and was told it could only go to a group / trust that could prove they would also use her for education. I bought towy. But she was 1of my very first boats I enquired about. If they have reconsidered this position then I'll happily try again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dav and Pen Posted February 13, 2020 Report Share Posted February 13, 2020 I was on the IWA council when John Heap was chairman, not sure what he would think about Birchills now. Was a great boat in those days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jrtm Posted February 13, 2020 Report Share Posted February 13, 2020 51 minutes ago, Dav and Pen said: I was on the IWA council when John Heap was chairman, not sure what he would think about Birchills now. Was a great boat in those days. As long as the metal hull is sound, - engine easy rebuildable or replacement same type in the bottoms are wooden bottoms (same as any wooden bottom but alot shorter to deal with) Uxter boards more problematic but as it would need full strip down not so bad, As said as long as hull metal is sound and if they alow work while it's there 20k and you'll have a sound hull and a bare cabin, might not get deck for that price but being fairly short and doing work yourself. Year turn around and 20k will get you floating I would say Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete harrison Posted February 13, 2020 Report Share Posted February 13, 2020 4 hours ago, Paddle said: ARIES & BIRCHILLS NO 2 are now free to a good home in the next round of disposals from the Museum. https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/refresh/media/thumbnail/41302-further-information-on-the-boats-we-are-rehoming.pdf Offers by 18 May. ARIES had a load of money spent on it forty years ago, according to the thread below, and the same source implies that you therefore won't be getting the motor with the boat/firewood. BIRCHILLS NO 2 had a monster Gardner in it and went like stink, but I think it is a composite boat so should be rather more reasonable a project - anybody know? How did the museum acquire BIRCHILLS - it was in private ownership on loan to the museum thirty years ago iirc - a bit like ARIES. I can't see there being many takers for ARIES as its restoration costs would be horrendous with its final value being quite low. It does however have some valued parts which could help in the restoration of other 'historic' boats (I know which bits I would like). I do hope BIRCHILLS finds the right new owner as it would be such a shame for it to lose its history and character with the fitting of a steel bottom, steel gunwales and steel cabin - let alone overly shiny paint and the internal fittings of a modern pleasure cruiser. For the record the engine in BIRCHILLS was / is a Gardner 4LW, unlike ENTERPRISE which has a GARDNER 5L2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parahandy Posted February 13, 2020 Report Share Posted February 13, 2020 35 minutes ago, pete harrison said: I can't see there being many takers for ARIES as its restoration costs would be horrendous with its final value being quite low. It does however have some valued parts which could help in the restoration of other 'historic' boats (I know which bits I would like). I do hope BIRCHILLS finds the right new owner as it would be such a shame for it to lose its history and character with the fitting of a steel bottom, steel gunwales and steel cabin - let alone overly shiny paint and the internal fittings of a modern pleasure cruiser. For the record the engine in BIRCHILLS was / is a Gardner 4LW, unlike ENTERPRISE which has a GARDNER 5L2 Can I ask Pete and I am totally ignorant about these things so forgive me if I sound stupid . You and I have corresponded in the past on Jaguar Forums about restoration of Cars and I use this as my template when I ask this question . How does a Boat like ARIES decline to such a state after having many thousands of Pounds spent on her in a previous restoration , is it simply a case of an Owner failing to maintain her ? It must be heartbreaking for Grawar to witness this decline after effectively selling everything in pursuit of his dream to see her fully restored and back on the Cut Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jrtm Posted February 13, 2020 Report Share Posted February 13, 2020 26 minutes ago, Parahandy said: Can I ask Pete and I am totally ignorant about these things so forgive me if I sound stupid . You and I have corresponded in the past on Jaguar Forums about restoration of Cars and I use this as my template when I ask this question . How does a Boat like ARIES decline to such a state after having many thousands of Pounds spent on her in a previous restoration , is it simply a case of an Owner failing to maintain her ? It must be heartbreaking for Grawar to witness this decline after effectively selling everything in pursuit of his dream to see her fully restored and back on the Cut I know was to pete but in my op because its wooden. Pete yes I do too, why I has so interested in birchills due to it not being messed about. It's exactly what I like about a boat old character, wooden bits where wood should be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete harrison Posted February 13, 2020 Report Share Posted February 13, 2020 (edited) 41 minutes ago, Parahandy said: Can I ask Pete and I am totally ignorant about these things so forgive me if I sound stupid . You and I have corresponded in the past on Jaguar Forums about restoration of Cars and I use this as my template when I ask this question . How does a Boat like ARIES decline to such a state after having many thousands of Pounds spent on her in a previous restoration , is it simply a case of an Owner failing to maintain her ? It must be heartbreaking for Grawar to witness this decline after effectively selling everything in pursuit of his dream to see her fully restored and back on the Cut ARIES has clearly suffered in a similar way to many wooden narrow boats, even though it was subject to major works 40 years ago. In working days wooden narrow boats had a life expectancy of 20 to 30 years, and during this time would be subject to regular dockings and maintenance. In working days there were countless boatyards throughout the waterways system that had the facilities as well as the skilled workers to maintain these wooden hulled boats. As commercial carrying came to an end so did the majority of boatyards that could maintain a wooden hull, leading to the condition of most wooden boat deteriorating and losing value - and when combined with 'enthusiasts' buying them as cheap boats is far from ideal. A few 'enthusiasts' had / have the commitment and finances to restore these life expired boats, regardless of time and costs, hence a boat like ARIES being a survivor. Once a wooden boat is restored it then goes straight back into the 20 to 30 year life cycle again, although a boat restored nowadays probably will last longer as modern building and coating practices are much improved. The vast majority of wooden narrow boats restored in the 1970's and 1980's have suffered through lack of docking as boatyards with the facilities and skilled staff remain few and far between, so problems that should be dealt with regular dockings are usually left to the point of near failure by which time an expensive repair is required that can easily be more than the value of the boat. This is harder to accept with a museum exhibit such as ARIES, which clearly has not been maintained for several years by its owners at Ellesmere Port - for which they will claim multiple reasons. I expect restoration cost for ARIES would easily exceed £100k, but its end value would be less than £50k (and that is being generous). It has to be said that whilst metal hulled 'historic' boats appear a better proposition they are not really, except that worn out or heavily corroded iron / steel can be patch overplated and worn rivets welded up. This method of repair is O.K. if done properly but can cause bigger problems later on, but because these boats are 'desirable' an owner will sooner or later replate the hull - and a good restoration of a metal hulled boat will easily exceed its end value just like a wooden boat. I am not sure how much of the above is just my perception or whether I have answered you question edit = and do I regret selling my Jaguar XK Dynamic R - yes I do, but I do not regret buying my boat. Edited February 13, 2020 by pete harrison 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parahandy Posted February 13, 2020 Report Share Posted February 13, 2020 (edited) 11 minutes ago, pete harrison said: ARIES has clearly suffered in a similar way to many wooden narrow boats, even though it was subject to major works 40 years ago. In working days wooden narrow boats had a life expectancy of 20 to 30 years, and during this time would be subject to regular dockings and maintenance. In working days there were countless boatyards throughout the waterways system that had the facilities as well as the skilled workers to maintain these wooden hulled boats. As commercial carrying came to an end so did the majority of boatyards that could maintain a wooden hull, leading to the condition of most wooden boat deteriorating and losing value - and when combined with 'enthusiasts' buying them as cheap boats is far from ideal. A few 'enthusiasts' had / have the commitment and finances to restore these life expired boats, regardless of time and costs, hence a boat like ARIES being a survivor. Once a wooden boat is restored it then goes straight back into the 20 to 30 year life cycle again, although a boat restored nowadays probably will last longer as modern building and coating practices are much improved. The vast majority of wooden narrow boats restored in the 1970's and 1980's have suffered through lack of docking as boatyards with the facilities and skilled staff remain few and far between, so problems that should be dealt with regular dockings are usually left to the point of near failure by which time an expensive repair is required that can easily be more than the value of the boat. This is harder to accept with a museum exhibit such as ARIES, which clearly has not been maintained for several years by its owners at Ellesmere Port - for which they will claim multiple reasons. I expect restoration cost for ARIES would easily exceed £100k, but its end value would be less than £50k (and that is being generous). It has to be said that whilst metal hulled 'historic' boats appear a better proposition they are not really, except that worn out or heavily corroded iron / steel can be patch overplated and worn rivets welded up. This method of repair is O.K. if done properly but can cause bigger problems later on, but because these boats are 'desirable' an owner will sooner or later replate the hull - and a good restoration of a metal hulled boat will easily exceed its end value just like a wooden boat. I am not sure how much of the above is just my perception or whether I have answered you question edit = and do I regret selling my Jaguar XK Dynamic R - yes I do, but I do not regret buying my boat. I tell the Boys you will be back , perhaps with an E Type ? Thanks for your kind reply , its most informative . As Billy said earlier the method of Construction is a major reason . The conduct of the People at Ellesmere Port takes a lot of comprehending . Edited February 13, 2020 by Parahandy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete harrison Posted February 13, 2020 Report Share Posted February 13, 2020 2 minutes ago, Parahandy said: I tell the Boys you will be back , perhaps with an E Type ? Thanks for your kind reply , its most informative . Definitely not an E-Type as I do not like them (but I do appreciate the heritage), but a late XKR-S coupe in Italian Racing Red...……………………could be tempting Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parahandy Posted February 13, 2020 Report Share Posted February 13, 2020 1 minute ago, pete harrison said: Definitely not an E-Type as I do not like them (but I do appreciate the heritage), but a late XKR-S coupe in Italian Racing Red...……………………could be tempting I counted about eight on the Autotrader so you have no excuse ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete harrison Posted February 13, 2020 Report Share Posted February 13, 2020 Just now, Parahandy said: I counted about eight on the Autotrader so you have no excuse ? Except that I am one of those committed owners who is have a 'historic' boat restored at considerable cost, and I would like to retire sooner rather than later Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parahandy Posted February 13, 2020 Report Share Posted February 13, 2020 1 minute ago, pete harrison said: Except that I am one of those committed owners who is have a 'historic' boat restored at considerable cost, and I would like to retire sooner rather than later It obviously gives you great pleasure and I especially enjoy reading the Historic Section , I made the opposite choice and will doubtless be working for ever . 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paddle Posted February 13, 2020 Report Share Posted February 13, 2020 1 hour ago, pete harrison said: a Gardner 4LW, unlike ENTERPRISE which has a GARDNER 5L2 Thank you. That is what I recalled, but it is rather a long time ago - and reading on the internet this afternoon of ENTERPRISE's 5-pot made me doubt my mind. BIRCHILLS should be sold; got to be worth 15k at least. Then the cash could be frittered away on some other firewood at the museum and BIRCHILLS could go to somebody who would love her and spend the fortune on her that she deserves. She shifts... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete harrison Posted February 13, 2020 Report Share Posted February 13, 2020 2 minutes ago, Paddle said: BIRCHILLS should be sold; got to be worth 15k at least. Then the cash could be frittered away on some other firewood at the museum and BIRCHILLS could go to somebody who would love her and spend the fortune on her that she deserves. She shifts... Except that the £15k would more likely be spent on story / interpretation boards or blinds in somebodys office or a managers bonus or suchlike. The 4LW will not make BIRCHILLS shift on its own as it needs to be mated to the correct gearbox and propeller. I suspect the shape of the hull and its draught will help, but ultimately it is the steerer and their understanding of how the boat interacts with the water that will make BIRCHILLS 'shift' 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paddle Posted February 13, 2020 Report Share Posted February 13, 2020 27 minutes ago, pete harrison said: there were countless boatyards throughout the waterways system that had the facilities as well as the skilled workers to maintain these wooden hulled boats. I am sure I once read that when they were knocking wooden boats out in the '30s that Yarwoods (or somebody similar) had space to build 8 such boats at once, and could knock out two a week. That suggested four weeks to build a wooden boat. They must have had an army behind them. Maybe I misremembered, but doubtless somebody can correct me. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paddle Posted February 13, 2020 Report Share Posted February 13, 2020 1 minute ago, pete harrison said: Except that the £15k would more likely be spent on story / interpretation boards or blinds in somebodys office or a managers bonus or suchlike. The 4LW will not make BIRCHILLS shift on its own as it needs to be mated to the correct gearbox and propeller. I suspect the shape of the hull and its draught will help, but ultimately it is the steerer and their understanding of how the boat interacts with the water that will make BIRCHILLS 'shift' Re the 15k, probably better than spending it on ETHEL (long gone). BIRCHILLS shifted, well mated with the various parts. I was lucky enough to crew for a week or more, rather a long time ago now. Quite gloriously preposterous; doubtless with six dumb boats behind it would have been a more polite experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete harrison Posted February 13, 2020 Report Share Posted February 13, 2020 8 minutes ago, Paddle said: I am sure I once read that when they were knocking wooden boats out in the '30s that Yarwoods (or somebody similar) had space to build 8 such boats at once, and could knock out two a week. That suggested four weeks to build a wooden boat. They must have had an army behind them. Maybe I misremembered, but doubtless somebody can correct me. . Yarwood's did not built many wooden boats, but like many other of the larger and established builders they churned out iron and steel narrow boats in quick succession, and pretty much in the timeframe you have quoted - as did the builders of wooden narrow boats such as Yates in the Black Country and W.H. Walker & Bros Ltd. at Rickmansworth amongst others 3 minutes ago, Paddle said: Re the 15k, probably better than spending it on ETHEL (long gone). BIRCHILLS shifted, well mated with the various parts. I was lucky enough to crew for a week or more, rather a long time ago now. Quite gloriously preposterous; doubtless with six dumb boats behind it would have been a more polite experience. You will like this image then courtesy of Colin Scrivener Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paddle Posted February 13, 2020 Report Share Posted February 13, 2020 *full* dumb boats.... But I do like the picture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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