Please help me understand overstaying

[RLWP]

 

 

I have a prediction....in the next few years, local councils will levy council tax on EVERY liveaboard, in every marina...and the canals will be full of people evacuating marinas...for the towpath. THEN, yes, we will have a huge problem, but for now I reckon it's only bad in some areas, and most areas are lovely.

 

Are you worried that you have picked the wrong lifestyle?

 

Richard

[Paul C]

Look ladies and gentleman. I obviously do know that overstaying is a huge issue for some, in some hotspot areas. If YOU are aware of the issue, then clearly CRT does too. (I'm 80% sure). I guess my real point is that it has never affected me much....at all in fact......and perhaps I did pass an overstaying boat once in a while, they were not the biggest issue (to me) on the canals...(reckless drunk day hirers are the worst). It just seems that so many people get so hyped up about this issue, when all they really should be doing, is notifying CRT ? Then it will most likely be handled IF there is a legal basis for them to do it. CRT aren't idiots..they're aware of the situation, and probably prioritise some areas more than others, based on their resources at any given time. My point is...should we be getting them to check every nook and cranny up and down every offshoot of every canal, under every branch of every tree, or should we just tell them the 10 worst spots, and all stop worrying about it

 

 

Its basically a regional issue. While it happens everywhere, its insignificant in many regions and areas of the country.

[DeanS]

Hi Dean

 

I think you have missed the boat on this one mate. Many councils tried to levvy council tax on some long term moorers about twenty years ago. leicester was one of them. It all crumbled away to nothing especialy when some councils realised if they were not careful they could end up losing many thousands of pounds rehoming some boaters.

 

Tim

 

 

Possibly, except I arrived in a marina, signed a 5 month winter mooring contract, and then got charged 5 months of Council tax for that period. Yes I spent weeks communicating with the various depts trying to tell them every other boater was also stuck due to ice/stoppages during that time, but they wouldnt have any of it. Fair enough, I was on a residential mooring, but it was a temp contract I signed for a 5mth period (at the time)

 

Are you worried that you have picked the wrong lifestyle?

 

Richard

 

 

Doesnt affect me. I already pay council tax in my marina. I'm sure many dont....yet.

[Paul C]

Doesnt affect me. I already pay council tax in my marina. I'm sure many dont....yet.

 

Do you also own/rent/live in a house, on which you pay council tax?

Edited January 15, 2013 by Paul C

[Keeping Up]

Doesnt affect me. I already pay council tax in my marina. I'm sure many dont....yet.

 

It nearly affected me. The council tried to charge me council tax, even though I don't live aboard when the boat is on the mooring. When that failed they tried to charge me council tax on the boat as a second home. When that failed they said they would try and charge me busines rates on my mooring. I haven't heard fgrom them for over a year now so I'm hoping they've given up for the time being.

[Dave_P]

Its non existent in Leeds.

It's non existent in Manchester.

It's non existent in Doncaster.

It's non existent in Wakefield.

It's non existent in Sheffield.

It's non existent in Skipton.

 

Since you're focussing on the north, try the Rochdale canal above and around Hebden Bridge. Plenty of overstaying going on around there. You don't need to come back weeks later to tell either. When you find that the whole towpath and surrounding areas have been annexed for said boaters' assorted junk, you can be pretty sure that they're not moving very often!

 

Personally I don't mind too much about overstaying but when I see rubbish and mess everywhere, I get cross. Also when people set up camp right on a lock-landing - I kid you not.

 

Dean is right though. It is only a problem in certain areas.

[DeanS]

Do you also own/rent/live in a house, on which you pay council tax?

 

Paul, I only have the boat. I have no issue paying council tax. I merely raised it in this thread, because if the local councils do try and chase every liveaboard for council tax, beginning where it's easy to find them (marinas), then it could cause some to move out of marinas, and the overstaying issue may then worsen. I see no difference between myself on a residential mooring paying council tax, and someone living "under the radar"....but if councils are running out of money, and they decide to chase boaters, it may have quite an impact. If they can charge me, I dont see what's stopping them charging every liveaboard at some point. Their easiest place to begin would be local marinas...they would just walk in and ask..."how many permanent liveaboards in this marina".

I for one, am VERY interested in CRTs new winter mooring scheme soon to be announced.....I'd rather cruise all year, and moor up "anywhere in a designated zone" for the winter months.

 

I'd like to also re-iterate, that I'm a relatively NEW boater, and my comments are NOT the most knowledge-filled, accurate, based in reality comments....I just enjoy discussing some things on the forum when I'm bored. As you can tell, I was a little bored today it seems ...due to the weather I think

 

Since you're focussing on the north, try the Rochdale canal above and around Hebden Bridge. Plenty of overstaying going on around there. You don't need to come back weeks later to tell either. When you find that the whole towpath and surrounding areas have been annexed for said boaters' assorted junk, you can be pretty sure that they're not moving very often!

 

Personally I don't mind too much about overstaying but when I see rubbish and mess everywhere, I get cross. Also when people set up camp right on a lock-landing - I kid you not.

 

Dean is right though. It is only a problem in certain areas.

 

 

Yep, I did see the teepee community amongst the trees while cruising past...they did look like a squatter camp....but I put it partly down to the fact that the local shops in the area are "green, enviro" traders, selling crystals, and that type of thing. The hippees have to live somewhere

[David Mack]

... unless there is sine-age ...

 

Do you mean "signage"?

 

Perhaps simpler to say "unless there are signs".

[Paul C]

Paul, I only have the boat. I have no issue paying council tax. I merely raised it in this thread, because if the local councils do try and chase every liveaboard for council tax, beginning where it's easy to find them (marinas), then it could cause some to move out of marinas, and the overstaying issue may then worsen. I see no difference between myself on a residential mooring paying council tax, and someone living "under the radar"....but if councils are running out of money, and they decide to chase boaters, it may have quite an impact. If they can charge me, I dont see what's stopping them charging every liveaboard at some point. Their easiest place to begin would be local marinas...they would just walk in and ask..."how many permanent liveaboards in this marina".

 

Every liveaboard boater should already be paying council tax.

[DeanS]

Are you worried that you have picked the wrong lifestyle?

 

Richard

 

I LOVE the canals. You can throw my ashes into a lock.

[mrsmelly]

Every liveaboard boater should already be paying council tax.

 

Under the present LAW this is in many circumstances impossible. A continuous cruiser who travels properly across the country is in a different council location far too often to pay the ever changing bill, the costs as you know vary immensely from area to area and there is at present no central office to register with or price available to pay. I tried this years ago when I worried about getting a large bill some day. Councils simply are not interested. If you personaly dont like this fact and you live in a boring house then I suggest you sell it like I did and have your freedom to roam anywhere on a boat, everybody with a reasonable amount of equity in their house is quite at liberty to do so.

 

Tim

[DeanS]

Under the present LAW this is in many circumstances impossible. A continuous cruiser who travels properly across the country is in a different council location far too often to pay the ever changing bill, the costs as you know vary immensely from area to area and there is at present no central office to register with or price available to pay. I tried this years ago when I worried about getting a large bill some day. Councils simply are not interested. If you personaly dont like this fact and you live in a boring house then I suggest you sell it like I did and have your freedom to roam anywhere on a boat, everybody with a reasonable amount of equity in their house is quite at liberty to do so.

 

Tim

 

 

 

I'll whisper this.....do you think there are lots of liveaboards in marinas (fixed in specific council zones) , who the councils dont know about

[Paul C]

Under the present LAW this is in many circumstances impossible. A continuous cruiser who travels properly across the country is in a different council location far too often to pay the ever changing bill, the costs as you know vary immensely from area to area and there is at present no central office to register with or price available to pay. I tried this years ago when I worried about getting a large bill some day. Councils simply are not interested. If you personaly dont like this fact and you live in a boring house then I suggest you sell it like I did and have your freedom to roam anywhere on a boat, everybody with a reasonable amount of equity in their house is quite at liberty to do so.

 

Tim

 

Yep, it was more a 'should' in terms of a moral obligation; or a lack of exemption from paying taxes. I accept there's huge impracticalities. I have a neutral viewpoint on the topic anyway.

 

Interesting that DeanS mentions a possible change in coucils' policy, while you cite present LAW. For example, councils may interpret any boat (ie leisure/non-liveaboard as well as liveaboard) as a valid target for trying to extract council tax off of.

[DeanS]

Yep, it was more a 'should' in terms of a moral obligation; or a lack of exemption from paying taxes. I accept there's huge impracticalities. I have a neutral viewpoint on the topic anyway.

 

Interesting that DeanS mentions a possible change in coucils' policy, while you cite present LAW. For example, councils may interpret any boat (ie leisure/non-liveaboard as well as liveaboard) as a valid target for trying to extract council tax off of.

 

 

The real point of my comment was that if I left the marina, I wouldnt pay council tax. I'm sure many would leave their marinas if the councils starting tighting the noose. This would then impact overstaying big time. It's not an issue now, but it could go that way. Let's hope it doesnt, but as someone who's invested a lot to live on the canals, I'm quite prepared for it to happen at some point.......

[Wanted]

Of course there are more boats in London, there is more of everything in London. Do we really think that a a city with a population of over eight million wouldn't have more boats than a town up north with only a few ferret botherers? ( )

 

I know the Hanwell flight has been closed but I went up to the Fox at the weekend and got a space right by the pub, amongst another four boats. Hardly rammed.

 

ETA for weird auto correct!

Edited January 15, 2013 by Wanted

[Keeping Up]

Interesting that DeanS mentions a possible change in coucils' policy, while you cite present LAW. For example, councils may interpret any boat (ie leisure/non-liveaboard as well as liveaboard) as a valid target for trying to extract council tax off of.

 

 

Indeed (as per my post above)

[mrsmelly]

The real point of my comment was that if I left the marina, I wouldnt pay council tax. I'm sure many would leave their marinas if the councils starting tighting the noose. This would then impact overstaying big time. It's not an issue now, but it could go that way. Let's hope it doesnt, but as someone who's invested a lot to live on the canals, I'm quite prepared for it to happen at some point.......

 

Council tax is sometimes levied on residential moorings as most people then have some rights to stay put in that area. You are right in that councils did realise years ago that forcing people out on to the cut into their catchment areas could end up costing them thousands. ( costing the councils that is )

 

Tim

Edited January 15, 2013 by mrsmelly

[BEngo]

Yep, it was more a 'should' in terms of a moral obligation; or a lack of exemption from paying taxes. I accept there's huge impracticalities. I have a neutral viewpoint on the topic anyway.

 

Interesting that DeanS mentions a possible change in coucils' policy, while you cite present LAW. For example, councils may interpret any boat (ie leisure/non-liveaboard as well as liveaboard) as a valid target for trying to extract council tax off of.

 

 

No. A boat is a chattel and as such is NEVER liable for CT. A residential mooring may be liable to Council Tax at Band A, much depends on the terms of the mooring agreement. If you have a residential mooring which is liable for CT you are entitled to a rebate if you are not occupying the mooring (out cruising, moored somewhere else etc).

 

N

Edited January 16, 2013 by BEngo

[MtB]

No. A boat is a chattel and as such is NEVER liable for CT. A residential mooring may be liable to Council Tax at Band A, much depends on the terms of the mooring agreement. If you have a residential mooring which is liable for CT you are entitled to a rebate if you are not occupying the mooring (out cruising, moored somewhere else etc).

 

N

 

Really? Why is that then? it doesn't apply to houses.

 

The best one can get on an empty house is relief form paying council tax on the property for up to six months, and this is a concession and not a right which may be claimed.

 

(And worse, once the property has been empty for a total of six months (previous vacant periods are added in), it is actually cheaper for the house owner to make up a fictitious single person tenancy and pay the CT himself, as the single person qualifies for 25% single occupancy discount, whilst an empty property does not, so I understand.)

 

MtB

[Tigerr]

I LOVE the canals. You can throw my ashes into a lock.

That is exactly the sort of anti social behaviour that gives boaters a bad name. I was at Crofton this summer and the towpath was littered with the ash dumps of peopel who woudl claim to love the canals. Use a bin.

[bowten]

That is exactly the sort of anti social behaviour that gives boaters a bad name. I was at Crofton this summer and the towpath was littered with the ash dumps of peopel who woudl claim to love the canals. Use a bin.

Yer don't want to go in a bin when yer dead do yer Dean!

[DeanS]

Yer don't want to go in a bin when yer dead do yer Dean!

 

 

LOL. Talk about going off topic ;-)

Mind you, THAT might be construed as being a complete overstayer...having your ashes in the canal system....they'll never get rid of me....;-)

[rgreg]

On the Lancaster Canal (about as North as you can get) there are certainly a number of shufflers who go to and from Lancaster and nearby places. Not necessarily so much overstaying in one place, but maximum stay in place A, move to place B for maximum stay,then back to place A and the cycle begins again.

[bowten]

That is exactly the sort of anti social behaviour that gives boaters a bad name. I was at Crofton this summer and the towpath was littered with the ash dumps of peopel who woudl claim to love the canals. Use a bin.

Have yer never heard of cinder paths?Thats what people up Norf always did with their ashes from the fire,made great paths.

 

On the Lancaster Canal (about as North as you can get) there are certainly a number of shufflers who go to and from Lancaster and nearby places. Not necessarily so much overstaying in one place, but maximum stay in place A, move to place B for maximum stay,then back to place A and the cycle begins again.

If it's far enough between A and B that's ok.

[rgreg]

 

 

 

If it's far enough between A and B that's ok.

So how far's far enough?