Mystery location of ca 1900s canal photograph

[antarmike]

I read it but I must be honest, I'm really not that bothered where or when the photo was taken.

 

I joined in the discussion making a light hearted response to something you posted and am not too interested in getting dragged into a deep debate about something which, at the end of the day, will remain just a theory.

 

My personal theory is that it is a watercourse, probably natural, that is running through some rich bod's grounds (hence the ornamental trees) and he has probably had a flat packhorse bridge replaced with something that enables him to navigate without banging his bonce.

Sorry been a bad day, dead central heating, cold, off work waiting for the "man who does" to turn up late without the parts he needs, wait for him as he goes to Lincoln to get the bits "only be an hour" and continue waiting till he gets back 2 1/2 hours. and then the bill.

 

I know we will never know, didn't mean to be short with you.

Edited December 19, 2012 by antarmike

[Derek R.]

Blimey! It's 'Gardener's Question Time' . . .

[antarmike]

Blimey! It's 'Gardener's Question Time' . . .

 

If there are clues you have got to use them....

[Pluto]

The French Canal builders are dafter than I thought, Lombardy Polar roots spread far and wide and are very destructive, just what you want next to a canal you want to hold water, But we digress, the poplars I refer to are to far from the known course of the river or canal to have been planted by the Canal Company. I refer to them as a feature of adjoining land and what that land is likely to be.

...

 

discuss

There are a few letters about trees alongside canals in the Gentleman's Magazine:

 

Dec 1792, pp1080-1

Letter from Dendrophilus re planting trees alongside canals to reduce water loss.

 

March 1793, pp217-8

Further letter from Dendrophilus re correspondence over his tree idea. Other letters April 1793, pp301-2, Aug 1793, p715, Sept 1793, pp800-1, Oct 1793, pp907 (with good quote on boatmen stealing from farmers fields)

 

The argument centred over whether the shade provided by the trees made it a better place for boatmen to work and reduced evaporation, compared to the damage they do to the canal structure and the loss of water caused by the trees themselves. Bear in mind that natural drainage provides a significant supply of water to canals, and trees will affect this. The answer seems to have been that trees were worth planting in France, particularly in the sunnier south, but that the damage they caused made them less benficial to British canals.

[Chris Pink]

The French Canal builders are dafter than I thought, Lombardy Polar roots spread far and wide and are very destructive, just what you want next to a canal you want to hold water, But we digress, the poplars I refer to are to far from the known course of the river or canal to have been planted by the Canal Company. I refer to them as a feature of adjoining land and what that land is likely to be.

 

Probably not relevant to this discussion but the plane trees I have seen on French canals form a network of roots running down the bank and provide a wonderful framework to keep the banks in place.

 

I don't know whether this applies to Lombardy poplars but if it does, maybe the French canal builders were not as daft as you thought.

 

Especially as they were at it 100 years before the Duke of Bridgewater and while we were still hauling coal through the mud on horseback.

[Pluto]

Probably not relevant to this discussion but the plane trees I have seen on French canals form a network of roots running down the bank and provide a wonderful framework to keep the banks in place.

 

I don't know whether this applies to Lombardy poplars but if it does, maybe the French canal builders were not as daft as you thought.

 

Especially as they were at it 100 years before the Duke of Bridgewater and while we were still hauling coal through the mud on horseback.

Actually, I have seen it suggested that the trees lining the Canal du Midi were only planted 100 years after the canal opened. It is something I am hoping to research in the coming year. And even if they do consolidate the banks, there is still the considerable amount of water which a tree requires and which is lost through their leaves which can damage a canal's operation.

[luctor et emergo]

The part of the 'canal' in the photograph need not have been dug by hand. It may be a natural water feature (lake, pond, stream etc) that has been incorporated into a canal. I think that the bridge looks very 'industrial', and would have thought an ornamental bridge would have been more fancy.

It may well be one of those many, many shortlived canal(branches) such as which sprang up during the era of 'canal fever', having been abandoned and now used as a pleasure feature.

[Timleech]

Actually, I have seen it suggested that the trees lining the Canal du Midi were only planted 100 years after the canal opened. It is something I am hoping to research in the coming year. And even if they do consolidate the banks, there is still the considerable amount of water which a tree requires and which is lost through their leaves which can damage a canal's operation.

 

I remember being told by a BW engineer that trees don't really strengthen banks but ultimately weaken them, though I can't remember the exact logic.

 

Any civil engineers here care to comment?

 

Tim

[Pluto]

I remember being told by a BW engineer that trees don't really strengthen banks but ultimately weaken them, though I can't remember the exact logic.

 

Any civil engineers here care to comment?

 

Tim

I suspect it depends upon whether the canal is lined with clay puddle, or whether the subsoil holds water. With a clay lining, tree roots can cause damage and leakage as they search for water. Where there is no such lining, the tree roots just extract water directly. Having talked to CRT (BW at the time) water engineers, they have no figures for how much water trees take from a canal, though in the eighteenth century, canal engineers were worried about the extraction of water by trees. It seems to be another bit of lost knowledge.

[Derek R.]

Interesting point about some trees. There was some communication I had - by internet or speech I cannot now recall - but the upshot was that Poplars can draw from the ground as much as 10,000 gallons of water in the course of a year, I think it was a year, may have been less. Seem to recall the conversation was over wood suitable for burning, and Poplar being at the bottom of the list due to water retention.

 

Edited to add:

 

Wasn't it Napoleon who planted trees all along the French roads to shade his troops whilst on the march? Nowadays they cut them down due to the carnage they cause when they jump out in front of cars. (So say the insurance claims).

Edited December 20, 2012 by Derek R.

[RLWP]

<snip>

 

the shade provided by the trees made it a better place for boatmen to work and reduced evaporation

 

<snip>

 

You wouldn't want your boatmen evaporating, would you

 

Is that my coat?

 

Richard

[Timleech]

I suspect it depends upon whether the canal is lined with clay puddle, or whether the subsoil holds water. With a clay lining, tree roots can cause damage and leakage as they search for water. Where there is no such lining, the tree roots just extract water directly. Having talked to CRT (BW at the time) water engineers, they have no figures for how much water trees take from a canal, though in the eighteenth century, canal engineers were worried about the extraction of water by trees. It seems to be another bit of lost knowledge.

+

From what I remember, this was more to do with strength of embankments than water loss.

 

Tim

[Pluto]

+

From what I remember, this was more to do with strength of embankments than water loss.

 

Tim

Ah, but it could be the variation in water conditions at different times of the year, based on tree growth, that causes instability in the ground conditions. Interestingly, on Ludwig's Canal in Bavaria, orchards were planted on the side of embankments to help with stabilising the earthworks. It seems to be something to which there is no simple answer.

Edited December 20, 2012 by Pluto

[alan_fincher]

Interesting point about some trees. There was some communication I had - by internet or speech I cannot now recall - but the upshot was that Poplars can draw from the ground as much as 10,000 gallons of water in the course of a year, I think it was a year, may have been less.

Again I can't recall the numbers, but I'm sure it was claimed last year when Tring summit water shortages were big news that the fact it now supports masses of large trees, never there in the more distant past, was one of the ways water is being used up in large amounts.

[bargemast]

 

Edited to add:

 

Wasn't it Napoleon who planted trees all along the French roads to shade his troops whilst on the march? Nowadays they cut them down due to the carnage they cause when they jump out in front of cars. (So say the insurance claims).

 

 

I think that the trees you write about, and that jump out in front of cars, were only planted to detect drunk drivers.

 

Peter.

[Chris Pink]

Again I can't recall the numbers, but I'm sure it was claimed last year when Tring summit water shortages were big news that the fact it now supports masses of large trees, never there in the more distant past, was one of the ways water is being used up in large amounts.

 

Without some weighing of the reduction in evaporation due to shade that is an un-informed opinion (yes I know it wasn't your opinion).

[Derek R.]

Again I can't recall the numbers, but I'm sure it was claimed last year when Tring summit water shortages were big news that the fact it now supports masses of large trees, never there in the more distant past, was one of the ways water is being used up in large amounts.

 

Well, don't forget that there are many railway cuttings that have equally become overgrown, and which have infamously caused the railway companies to claim 'leaves on the line' causing extensive delays. The embankment that runs from Boxmoor Station to Berkhamsted was covered in shrubs and trees until a more recent attack from the 'cleaners' made all quite bald again. Did look strange to see the trains again.

 

Flora will absorb huge amounts of water during Spring through to Autumn given the right conditions - enough Sun. This year's been pretty wet, so Thames has had warning signs out very frequently, whereas during 2011 there were none.

[antarmike]

There are a few letters about trees alongside canals in the Gentleman's Magazine:

 

Dec 1792, pp1080-1

Letter from Dendrophilus re planting trees alongside canals to reduce water loss.

 

March 1793, pp217-8

Further letter from Dendrophilus re correspondence over his tree idea. Other letters April 1793, pp301-2, Aug 1793, p715, Sept 1793, pp800-1, Oct 1793, pp907 (with good quote on boatmen stealing from farmers fields)

 

The argument centred over whether the shade provided by the trees made it a better place for boatmen to work and reduced evaporation, compared to the damage they do to the canal structure and the loss of water caused by the trees themselves. Bear in mind that natural drainage provides a significant supply of water to canals, and trees will affect this. The answer seems to have been that trees were worth planting in France, particularly in the sunnier south, but that the damage they caused made them less benficial to British canals.

Not the same tree I know but a large mature Oak, at the height of summer, takes water at a rate of 600 gallons per day from the ground and transpires it through its leaves (also quoted is 40,000 gallons per year per Oak tree but transpiration only occurs when in leaf, so there is a long dormant period with no transpiration at all), the actual rate depending on the wind, temperature etc. 600 gallons has to be the absolute maximum. 90 (ish)Oak trees planted on a bank and getting their water from the canal could equate roughly to one lock full of water wasted per day sucked out of the cut, I wonder if the tree planting for shade theory took this into account? Other sources say a Maple shifts 40 gallons per hour, the average figure quoted for a non specific tree is around 160 - 250 gallons per day.

Edited December 20, 2012 by antarmike

[luctor et emergo]

So 90 oaks shading the canal, use. Only a lock full of water a day? That seems like a good deal.

[RLWP]

Well, don't forget that there are many railway cuttings that have equally become overgrown, and which have infamously caused the railway companies to claim 'leaves on the line' causing extensive delays. The embankment that runs from Boxmoor Station to Berkhamsted was covered in shrubs and trees until a more recent attack from the 'cleaners' made all quite bald again. Did look strange to see the trains again.

 

Flora will absorb huge amounts of water during Spring through to Autumn given the right conditions - enough Sun. This year's been pretty wet, so Thames has had warning signs out very frequently, whereas during 2011 there were none.

 

There was an excellent article about this in one of the railway mags last year. Trees put a lot of 'strain' onto the surface of a cutting or embankment. If you have ever come across a tree fallen over in a cutting, you'll get some idea of the damage they can do.

 

I know that railway embankments and cuttings were mown by gangs with scythes - mostly to cut the fire risk of course, although it did provide fodder for railway horses. Did the canals do likewise?

 

Richard

[ChimneyChain]

I think BW/CART actually do nothing to discourage the growth of trees next to the bank until the pilings buckle and split in two. In fact they actively encourage it by planting shrubs for modern day bank protection. ( Has that got any thing to do with what is being talked about )

 

Darren

[J R ALSOP]

Slash and burn, that is the way forward. When I started boating nearly 60 years ago the thing that really gave me a interest was the fantastic views over the hedges as i steered the boat along, the telltale plume of smoke from the lengthsman fire where he was cutting grass and trimming the laid hedges. This memory is what has kept me going ( 52 years of having a licence with BTC, BWB and now CART) . I know it has been said before many times but if we had still got lengthsmen we would not be in the same mess as we are now in. Alas though now every canal looks the same ( a green tunnel), gone are the days when every canal channel was different, sometimes on the towpath side sometimes on the off side, but now it is a shallow canal evenly filled with muck and rubbish.

I am now getting ready to go for a Christmas cruise with like minded friends till the new year.

[GUMPY]

OK having remembered to get my book out to see if the date that this lock was washed away is in there.....

 

It is, this lock went in the floods of 1898, so this picture must predate that.

[alan_fincher]

OK having remembered to get my book out to see if the date that this lock was washed away is in there.....

 

It is, this lock went in the floods of 1898, so this picture must predate that.

So if that lock ceased to exist in 1898, that would seem to take out Laurence's next two suggestions for possible identities of the boat, as both Thames and Trent are not claimed to have joined the John Griffiths fleet until 1899.

 

That aside the new image that has come from more powerful software has shown us more detail, even at the res available here it is definate that the first letter is a "T". There scond letter is probably a "R" or a "H". This would point ot Trent or Thames,both are shown as 1899 registered boats and Thames is ex Joseph Phipkin which might explain the odd "canal Carrier" (partial repaint?).

Edited December 26, 2012 by alan_fincher

[luctor et emergo]

So, judging by this photograph, knackered lockgates (and lack of (preventative) ) maintenance is nothing new then