Mystery location of ca 1900s canal photograph

[photosofthepast]

Hi, a contact on Flickr suggested that I sign up here, so hope you don't mind me posting this. I have a mystery image of a commercial boat from ca 1900 that I wonder if anyone can identify? A possible name for the boat owner is 'Ball & Griffith' and another Flickr contact has found some interesting census records. You can see the image, and a few comments, at

[cotswoldsman]

Edited to say should have read the question I was trying to identify the location

Edited December 17, 2012 by cotswoldsman

[Ray T]

[Guest]

Edited to say should have read the question I was trying to identify the location

 

Given the thread title - fairy nuff I would say...

[Laurence Hogg]

The carriers name is JOHN GRIFFITHS of Bedworth. They had an office at Brentford so the location is lower Grand union possibly Brentford area. Boat may well be "Tay" which was photographed extensivly by the Illustated London News.

The location is just above Brentford gauging lock.

Edited December 17, 2012 by Laurence Hogg

[alan_fincher]

Well I agree with those who have said that you clearly asking for location in the thread title, and on Flickr!

 

I don't know if it is a trick question in respect of who's boats they are, but it looks for the world to me like they are from the fleet of John Griffiths.

 

John Griffiths was a well known Bedworth based carrier, and operated a large fleet.

 

My only hesitation is that usually I thought it said "Bedworth" on the cabin side, but this one doesn't.

 

Pete Harrison will probably now exactly identify the boats and year!

 

EDITED TO ADD:

 

I would say any attempt to link this to census records is likely to be doomed to abject failure.

 

Census records will show you the "master" or "captain" of a narrow boat, but not generally tell you who owned that narrow boat. Only if they were a "number one", (i.e. an owner / operator), is there much likelihood that the name painted on the cabinside is also the person on board on census night. That is relatively unusual, and it is far more likely that a Mr Griffiths owned this boat than that he actually operated it, I think.

 

Think of the "Fellows, Morton and Clayton" nalaogy - you are likely to find messrs Fellows, Morton or Clayton living in big houses, possibly with servants, in a census. They will not be found in the back cabins of the boats that had their names on the outsides!

 

ALSO:

 

Why do we think it is "circa 1900" - I'd say it looks and "feels" later than that.

Edited December 17, 2012 by alan_fincher

[GUMPY]

Ive been looking at location as well.

There are about 3 places I can think of on the GU where tne canal leaves the lock hard left. Hanwell, Nash Mills top and halway up Maffers none of which seem to fit this as they have other features that would have been there at that time but are not in the picture.

[Laurence Hogg]

he location is just above Brentford gauging lock, the boat is the "Tay" run by John Griffiths, the date I would stab at is 1910 as the livery matches other photos from that period in the same location.

[photosofthepast]

Thanks folks, looks like I did the right thing to post here given the quick and thorough response!

 

To clarify, whilst my primary thought was to identify the location any other information about the boat, company, date etc is much appreciated. As far as the date goes, my dating was very much an estimate. It's a lantern slide which in itself makes it quite difficult to date (compared say to earlier carte de visite etc) and there are no fashion clues, which is the other thing that I can typically date images by. If people have a better idea, even if it's just a gut feeling, then do shout!

 

Interesting comment re: Brentford. I live in Hanwell, have an allotment practically next to the Grand Union at the bottom of the Hanwell flight, and in the summer months used to cycle down the tow path to Brentford when I worked in Kew. I did wonder if that wall to the far right might be the wall of the old Hanwell Asylum but I don't feel that it is. For reference here are a few pictures of my own taken along that stretch. Should anyone be interested here are a few of my own photographs from along there - http://www.flickr.com/photos/whatsthatpicture/tags/grandunioncanal/

 

he location is just above Brentford gauging lock, the boat is the "Tay" run by John Griffiths, the date I would stab at is 1910 as the livery matches other photos from that period in the same location.

 

We posted our comments at the same time. So it is Brentford? I shall have to pop down there and have a look. Thanks

[tafelberg]

I thought the Hanwell Flight. Then I read the posts... Brentford Gauging lock, my how things have changed.

Edited December 17, 2012 by tafelberg

[GUMPY]

I thought the Hanwell Flight. Then I read the posts... Brentford Gauging lock, my how things have changed.

Yes that lock got washed away in a flood.......

There used to be a cottage there just out of sight to the right.

I have a picture in a book somewhere but forgot about it!

[Derek R.]

You won't recognise it as being anything like that shot!

 

There's an oval plaque on the balance beam which could conceivably be 100, but it is unclear. Wasn't so sure about the wall and the lie of the land until I browsed my library and found this: Brentford in the 1890's

 

 

In the OP's shot the ladies are wearing white bonnets. Whilst not definitive, many changed to black in respect of Queen Victoria after her death in 1901.

Edited December 17, 2012 by Derek R.

[alan_fincher]

he location is just above Brentford gauging lock, the boat is the "Tay" run by John Griffiths, the date I would stab at is 1910 as the livery matches other photos from that period in the same location.

If it is the gauging locks at Brentford, then it must be a long while before that, I think.

 

Pictures claimed to be 1903 show the locks as already having the capstan operated gates without balance beams that survived up until the modern electrically operated locks went in.

 

So as what is shown has conventional gates with balance beams, it must pre-date 1903, at least, I think.

 

Does anyone know when those highly individual gates got installed at Brentford?

 

However, if it is pre-1903, and the list I'm looking at is correct the Tay didn't enter the John Griffiths fleet until 1906, so I can't see how you could have the Tay posing with those lock gates.

 

EDITED TO ADD IMAGE FOUND ON E-BAY, (which shows 1903 date, and later lock gates....)

 

Edited December 17, 2012 by alan_fincher

[photosofthepast]

The 1896 1:2,500 map on http://www.old-maps.co.uk/maps.html suggests it was still only a single lock at that date. But it also doesn't show any buildings in positions matching those in the shot, so I'm unsure. I wonder also what that wall is to the right? I love that 1903 postacrd, and have another Wakefield (that's the photographer, not the place) image of the same period but up at Ealing Common - http://www.historypin.com/map/#!/geo:51.511743,-0.293766/zoom:18/dialog:14364008/tab:streetview/

[photosofthepast]

Just to say that I have replaced the original image (the one showing the full lantern slide) with a version as high-res as I could - see

 

I believe that the rectangular plate on the lock wall is numbered 259 (or possibly 859 or 359). I can't make out what it says on the oval plate I'm afraid.

 

And apologies, I've only just spotted Derek R's comment and the matching wall in that Brentford shot - I guess that absolutely seals the location!

[alan_fincher]

I believe that the rectangular plate on the lock wall is numbered 259 (or possibly 859 or 359). I can't make out what it says on the oval plate I'm afraid.

What is in the stonework will be a date relating to when it was put there - 1859, it seems, so not original to the opening of the canal. Many such stones still survive on the Grand Union, showing huge ranges of dates.

 

What will be on the circular plate on the balance beam is the lock number, 100, for Brentford Gauging Lock. It was originally the one hundredth lock down the Grand Junction, starting with Lock 1 at Braunston, although by this date was actually the 101st lock, as the early introduction of an additional lock in the Apsley area resulted in there being locks still called both 69 and 69A, with none of the remaining locks south of 69A ever renumbered to allow for the new interloper.

[pete harrison]

Pete Harrison will probably now exactly identify the boats and year!

No he will not, not enough detail for me except the cabin is lettered "John Griffiths" "Canal Carrier"

[alan_fincher]

No he will not, not enough detail for me except the cabin is lettered "John Griffiths" "Canal Carrier"

But we have come to expect so much of you Pete!

 

Can you confirm a build date then please for John Griffiths' "Tay", which Laurence thinks it is. The date I have is after the 1903 dtae where the lock gates already seem to have been replaced by the windlass operated ones with no balance beams, so unless some of my information is wrong, I think it has to be a boat built before those (claimed)1903 floods.

[pete harrison]

But we have come to expect so much of you Pete!

 

Can you confirm a build date then please for John Griffiths' "Tay", which Laurence thinks it is. The date I have is after the 1903 dtae where the lock gates already seem to have been replaced by the windlass operated ones with no balance beams, so unless some of my information is wrong, I think it has to be a boat built before those (claimed)1903 floods.

Gauge and health registration records suggest John Griffiths had only one boat named TAY, built early 1906.

[ChimneyChain]

A good picture shot (i think) taken from the opposite side in the "anyone recognise this location" thread on the 17/112011

 

Darren

[Laurence Hogg]

Having now processed the higher res image on our imaging system the name still reads three letters which appear to be TAY, even in negative with histogram adjustments the same evidence is there. The lock number does not in my opinion read anything but 100, the type of serif letter used is casting a shadow which in low res is confusing. There is no doubt that this is Brentford. As for the date, the beams look very tired so maybe just before a rebuild of the lock.

[photosofthepast]

Thank you everyone. But do we still have a contradiction in that Tay wasn't built until 1906 yet the image must be before the locks were rebuilt, which was pre-1903?

[photosofthepast]

A good picture shot (i think) taken from the opposite side in the "anyone recognise this location" thread on the 17/112011

 

Darren

 

Thanks for that, I finally found it (I was looking at wrong date!). Great picture - http://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=42669&st=0&p=781205&hl=location&fromsearch=1entry781205

 

It's actually from the same side, further up to the left. So in the picture you mention the gauging lock in my view is to the right. I've mocked up roughly the locations I think these were taken from here - http://www.whatsthatpicture.com/kml/BrentfordLock.kml?p=2'>https://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=http://www.whatsthatpicture.com/kml/BrentfordLock.kml?p=2

 

Edit: click on the yellow pins to see pictures, and if you open http://www.whatsthatpicture.com/kml/BrentfordLock.kml in Google Earth it will actually pan to what I think is about the right angle for each, albeit in aerial view

Edited December 18, 2012 by photosofthepast

[Derek R.]

The postcard of the 1903 floods would appear to show the OP's slide as pre-1903.

 

If that is TAY, and from my limited ability to enhance the bend, I can see no letters at all, just some shadowy shapes close together at the left hand end, and if Griffiths TAY was not built until 1906, then either this is a previous TAY, or something else.

 

What other boats were in the Griffiths fleet prior to 1903? (There are two boats aside each other in that shot).

[alan_fincher]

The postcard of the 1903 floods would appear to show the OP's slide as pre-1903.

 

If that is TAY, and from my limited ability to enhance the bend, I can see no letters at all, just some shadowy shapes close together at the left hand end, and if Griffiths TAY was not built until 1906, then either this is a previous TAY, or something else.

 

What other boats were in the Griffiths fleet prior to 1903? (There are two boats aside each other in that shot).

A listing in Narrow Boat magazine implies that from 1885, there were probably about 30 boats that joined the John Griffiths fleet prior to 1903.

 

That also shows no "Tay" built prior to the 1906 one.

 

I think without more to go on, we are unlikely to positively identify those boats.

 

It must be a point of record somewhere when the gauging locks got altered from having standard gates and paddles, though, I would have thought.

Edited December 18, 2012 by alan_fincher