cc,ing and the RBOA

[boathunter]

1) I don't believe that keeping a log of your progress is the law. It might be a way of demonstrating your movements over a period of time. Not much else.

 

2) If CaRT are keeping track of movements so well as to challenge a fake log, what is the point of keeping a log?

Same as insurance companies calling bluff on holiday insurance claims - weeds out a few just with a letter...

[Paul C]

See post #3 (carlt's post) for the relevant area of the law. If you believe you can satisfy the requirement without a log, then you'd also need to convince a judge in court. A log is a pretty good way of doing this. I doubt you'd have access to C&RT's internal records on enforcement for individual boats, so you would not be able to use these in a court of law, etc.

 

I've already illustrated how a 'fake' log is easily discovered only by an incomplete record of movements and a side-by-side comparison of the two. C&RT aren't keeping a record "so well" as to prove genuine CCing, but its enough to disprove a fake log. After all, they'd only have to have evidence of you in one place at one point in time, and a fake log differ, to prove it (or at least that part of) the log is inaccurate. And this would throw doubt onto the rest of it. 2 non-matches would probably be enough to put the nail in the coffin of a fake log.

 

In any case, I believe the log-keeping is a bit of a non-issue, since C&RT don't pursue all but the most serious breaches of CC rules. I don't think they've used this line of enquiry in court.

[jenlyn]

 

 

In any case, I believe the log-keeping is a bit of a non-issue, since C&RT don't pursue all but the most serious breaches of CC rules. I don't think they've used this line of enquiry in court.

It's been used several times, in fact matty 40's used photos to help someone who had been wrongly accused by CRT.

[Paul C]

It's been used several times, in fact matty 40's used photos to help someone who had been wrongly accused by CRT.

 

Can you give more details of this? What I meant was, that C&RT wouldn't/haven't used the non-existance of a log against anyone in isolation. Its always been that C&RT have observed someone remaining in the one place for longer than 14 days (normally, MUCH longer) which is provided as evidence. I vaguely remember the instance where matty40s helped someone out, but can't remember the details - can you find the thread is was discussed on?

[jenlyn]

Can you give more details of this? What I meant was, that C&RT wouldn't/haven't used the non-existance of a log against anyone in isolation. Its always been that C&RT have observed someone remaining in the one place for longer than 14 days (normally, MUCH longer) which is provided as evidence. I vaguely remember the instance where matty40s helped someone out, but can't remember the details - can you find the thread is was discussed on?

Ok, I thought you meant a log had not been used, sorry.

[Jerra]

2) If CaRT are keeping track of movements so well as to challenge a fake log, what is the point of keeping a log?

 

Personally I doubt that they would need much of a system to prove a log was fake. They only need to record you in one place when you claim to have been 50 miles away and it is an obvious fake.

 

Having said that it would mean they didn't need many personnel tracking boats and so save money for important jobs like maintenance.

 

Also I can't see a problem with keeping a log it could be as simple as date and where moored for the night. Hardly an onerous task.

[ditchcrawler]

1) I don't believe that keeping a log of your progress is the law. It might be a way of demonstrating your movements over a period of time. Not much else.

 

2) If CaRT are keeping track of movements so well as to challenge a fake log, what is the point of keeping a log?

CaRT are not suggesting anyone keeps a log RBOA are

[PiRSqwared]

CaRT are not suggesting anyone keeps a log RBOA are

Yes, to show to CaRT to prove you're ccing

[ditchcrawler]

Yes, to show to CaRT to prove you're ccing

But my point is, is CaRT interested in looking at it. I have seen two CaRT checkers in two weeks. I am sure they know who is moving and who isn't without the hassle of inspecting logs. What if you can't write, does that mean you can't boat?

[PiRSqwared]

Yes I agree, I think it's a bit pointless

[bizzard]

The CaRt checker might not be able to read either.

[cotswoldsman]

1) its the law

 

 

What law is that?

[jelunga]

At every lock on the Thames your boat number and name are logged and licence checked. Bunny.

And at the manned locks on the Trent.

 

1) I don't believe that keeping a log of your progress is the law. It might be a way of demonstrating your movements over a period of time. Not much else.

 

2) If CaRT are keeping track of movements so well as to challenge a fake log, what is the point of keeping a log?

I keep a log. Records engine hours and mooring location.

A) it is covering my arse

helps me keep track of engine hours for serviceing

C) reminds me where I am if my brain gets addled.

[Monkey 1]

But my point is, is CaRT interested in looking at it. I have seen two CaRT checkers in two weeks. I am sure they know who is moving and who isn't without the hassle of inspecting logs. What if you can't write, does that mean you can't boat?

 

Agreed. It's not difficult to spot those not complying, a tow path patrol now & again with give cart all the info they need without genuine boaters having to jump through hoops.

[jenlyn]

Agreed. It's not difficult to spot those not complying, a tow path patrol now & again with give cart all the info they need without genuine boaters having to jump through hoops.

Now and again, all the info they need? Emphasis on the now and again bit, would that be reliable?

[John V]

Now and again, all the info they need? Emphasis on the now and again bit, would that be reliable?

 

why not? Surely if part of a statement is proved to be a lie ALL the rest is proved to be from an unreliable scource

[jenlyn]

why not? Surely if part of a statement is proved to be a lie ALL the rest is proved to be from an unreliable scource

You do realise the "now and again" remark was about towpath patrols? Would "now and again" towpath patrols provide CRT with reliable information on boat movements, or do you think regular patrols on a weekly basis would give a better picture?

[John V]

You do realise the "now and again" remark was about towpath patrols? Would "now and again" towpath patrols provide CRT with reliable information on boat movements, or do you think regular patrols on a weekly basis would give a better picture?

 

They don't need to provide information on boat movements generally. You only have to prove someone a liar once and random accurate information is perfectly adequate to do just that, sorting it however could be a whole different ball game.

[Allan(nb Albert)]

They don't need to provide information on boat movements generally. You only have to prove someone a liar once and random accurate information is perfectly adequate to do just that, sorting it however could be a whole different ball game.

 

From October's NABO news -

 

As we go to press, the Trustees will have debated the issues of mooring

and enforcement. A sorry tale. BW introduced the 1995 Act to address

this problem and have spectacularly failed to use these powers, with only

one case brought before the courts in 17 years despite NABO complaints.

[owen]

While I do not have any problem personally with this idea if I was a lone female CC'er or indeed had a specific reason why I did not want "somebody" to know where I was I would be extremely concerned that my location could be tracked. By "somebody" I do not mean the authorites but I am thinking of people who may potentiall have someone stalking them for all the wrong reasons - this would equally apply to many males as well of course.

 

One of the great attractions of the canals is that you can literally get lost in the middle of nowhere and not really care where you are exactly apart from the vicinty of an attractive tree or a view on the horizon.

:clapping: completely agree

[jenlyn]

They don't need to provide information on boat movements generally. You only have to prove someone a liar once and random accurate information is perfectly adequate to do just that, sorting it however could be a whole different ball game.

Well, that reply has left me somewhat amused.

[muddywaters]

Personally I would not have a problem with keeping a log to show that I was a genuine C'Cer.

And before anyone say's anything I intend to CC one day when I retire.

[owen]

I hear what your saying and I agree.

CRT do need a foolproof system of monitoring though, they don't have one at the moment.

i agree with both of you but surely its up to crt to do the work like all of us who are working do .I dont ask someone who im working for at their home to sweep up after ive finished working for them. When i retire i want to do what i want such as keep a journal of places visited or not, my decision not crts.they are getting paid to sort things out so let them sort it .Let all us boaters just enjoy boating and get on with enjoying it taking everyone as they come and not judging someone just because of where and how long they moor for life is to short

[FadeToScarlet]

When you buy diesel, you get a dated receipt of some kind. You could use these to show where you had been.

 

Admittedly not foolproof if your diesel tank is particularly large, but a paper trail is produced, such as diesel, Chandlery, gas, coal etc receipts which prove your cruising area. All you'd have to do is put receipts into a file, and straight away you've a written record.

Edited October 7, 2012 by FadeToScarlet

[MtB]

When you buy diesel, you get a dated receipt of some kind. You could use these to show where you had been.

 

Admittedly not foolproof if your diesel tank is particularly large, but a paper trail is produced, such as diesel, Chandlery, gas, coal etc receipts which prove your cruising area. All you'd have to do is put receipts into a file, and straight away you've a written record.

 

This is a very good idea. A series of till receipts (showing a geographical journey) can just be shoved into the ticket drawer, which is a whole lot easier to do than keeping a hand written log.

 

I'm sure if CRT refused to accept them as evidence of a continuing journey, a court of law would.