C&RT online moorings

[Ronniesonic]

Hi All- Regarding 'setting' the price of C&RT Moorings. (I know Alan has posed a question & received a 'secret' answer)

 

I do not get it! So many unsold.

 

Scenario;

200 metres of moorings with grass verge & gate etc. No water, leccy or elsan. Assume not the most desirable place.

2x 60ft boats historically pay £1200 per year but 8 spaces are vacant.

C&RT still have to maintain, cut grass etc..

Advertise at £1000 per 60ft space. No takers.

Surely it's more economical to fill each space for a 'lesser price' rather than keep costs high but berths remaining vacant.

This is the market setting the value? By a lesser price i do not mean a p*** taking £50 but something more in line with what Boaters would pay

The more prime areas retain / increase their berth value, just like houses in London for example.

 

Should C&RT take some revenue rather than nowt? Or will they just 'close' their Moorings, perhaps to get boats into Marinas?

 

What does everybody think. Am I confused or just a bumbling fool?

Edited October 3, 2012 by Ronniesonic

[LEO]

Hi All- Regarding 'setting' the price of C&RT Moorings. (I know Alan has posed a question & received a 'secret' answer)

 

I do not get it! So many unsold.

 

Scenario;

200 metres of moorings with grass verge & gate etc. No water, leccy or elsan. Assume not the most desirable place.

2x 60ft boats historically pay £1200 per year but 8 spaces are vacant.

C&RT still have to maintain, cut grass etc..

Advertise at £1000 per 60ft space. No takers.

Surely it's more economical to fill each space for a 'lesser price' rather than keep costs high but berths remaining vacant.

This is the market setting the value? By a lesser price i do not mean a p*** taking £50 but something more in line with what Boaters would pay

The more prime areas retain / increase their berth value, just like houses in London for example.

 

Should C&RT take some revenue rather than nowt? Or will they just 'close' their Moorings, perhaps to get boats into Marinas?

 

What does everybody think. I am confused or just a bumbling fool?

 

 

Why pay for something when you can get similar for free a few yards away (or perhaps better in this case)?.

 

Dear old BW or dull young thing CART - all the business sense in the world.

 

L.

[MtB]

Why pay for something when you can get similar for free a few yards away (or perhaps better in this case)?.

 

Dear old BW or dull young thing CART - all the business sense in the world.

 

L.

 

Because the payers can moor up and forget their boats for long periods without worrying about getting ticketed while they get on with their 'other life', on the bank.

 

Mike

[Tuscan]

Several reasons I suspect much more competition from Marinas , many of whom have spaces and are becoming price competitive and offer facilities, tacit CRT reduction of on line moorings in return for extra marina revenue hiding as Leo says for financial or why should I pay reasons an increase in CM'ers.

[Guest]

I can't help but feel too that this is something that CRT need to look at urgently. I have previously posted about how we got a mooring longer than we actually needed for a sum much less than another boater paid for a shorter one.

 

It doesn't stack up.

 

However I wonder that even if they sold them off again at a fixed price would they still sell? - is there the demand in all areas.

 

Perhaps the answer (where there is less/low demand) is to switch to a system whereby they offer them at a fixed highish price and each week incrementally drop the price by a fixed amount until there is a taker.

 

A kind of reverse auction if you like.

[BEngo]

Several reasons I suspect much more competition from Marinas , many of whom have spaces and are becoming price competitive and offer facilities, tacit CRT reduction of on line moorings in return for extra marina revenue hiding as Leo says for financial or why should I pay reasons an increase in CM'ers.

 

 

More competition from Marinas which are generally part-empty I would agree with, but CRT only get 9% of a (non-BWML) Marina mooring fee whereas they get all of an on-line mooring fee and under the new arrangements they know that they will get this for three years at least.

 

As far as MB's comment, "worrying about getting ticketed" isn't something that CART are causing anywhere near Leo or me.

 

N

Edited October 3, 2012 by BEngo

[Guest]

More competition from Marinas which are generally part-empty I would agree with, but CRT only get 9% of a (non-BWML) Marina mooring fee whereas they get all of an on-line mooring fee and under the new arrangements they know that they will get this for three years at least.

 

As far as MB's comment, "worrying about getting ticketed" isn't something that CART are causing anywhere near Leo or me.

 

N

 

Not quite correct - CRT are only guaranteed the first six months, after which you can give notice and terminate your LTM agreement.

[Tuscan]

Not quite correct - CRT are only guaranteed the first six months, after which you can give notice and terminate your LTM agreement.

 

 

 

There are probably public or hidden agreements in place with the many new marinas regarding a reduction in on line moorings.

[alan_fincher]

I have never bought the answer that BW / CaRT need to set the "reserve" price on mooring auctions as high as they do, because it is "uneconomic" to let the mooring go for less.

 

That is clearly nonsense - there really are no incremental costs to CaRT at a typical unserviced towpath long-term mooring if it has a boat tied up on it, than if it does not!

 

Clearly, if nothing else came into play, even if they only let a mooring for 50% of "guide" price that has to make more economic sense for them than not letting it at all. Collecting say £1000 per annum, even if other boats at the site are contributing £2000 per annum must simply be better than collecting £0 per annum.

 

But I firmly believe something else does come into play!

 

If I had a boat at a site where I am currently paying £2000 per annum, under "old pre tender/auction" arrangements, and became aware that other people were now getting a similar mooring at the same site at half the price, all I need to do is bid on one, and hopefully also win it at the greatly reduced price. I would generally only need to give a month's notice on my existing mooring, so even allowing for paying for two moorings for one "overlap" month, I am quickly in profit. Not only that, my price is then locked down and guaranteed for 3 years - I don't have to fear above inflation increases.

 

I believe quite a few people have done this - terminated an existing agreement, after having acquired an auctioned mooring much more cheaply. I believe, but can't prove, that that is the reason that BW and now CaRT have pushed typical "reserve" prices up from 75% of "guide" to first 80%, and recently 90%. With the minimum price accepted now only 10% below the "standard" rate for the site, I believe it far less likely people will be bothered to terminate existing arrangements to save a few quid.

 

Of course, the end result of trying to discourage people getting moorings cheaply is that many now haven't a hope in hell of being let. If you couldn't let them with an 80% "reserve" it isn't very likely they will then be sold with the "reserve" set at 90%, unless a customer happens to come along, who wasn't looking before.

 

I firmly believe BW went for this "let the ,market set the rate" approach out of greed, thinking it would push average prices up, but now firmly find themselves in many areas where it has totally backfired on them. I'd be amazed if even after you rule out all the costs of setting it up, and presumably extra administration, if they are not anyway making far far less out of moorings letting as a result.

 

I doubt they will ever admit it though, as it seems to have been a bit of a flagship policy.

 

The crazy thing is that when your three year fixed price contract for a tendered or auctioned mooring completes, they simply offer to revert you to old arrangements, and you start paying "guide" - exactly the same figure as paid by anyone else at the site who's agreement predates all this nonsense. (I am currently going through this with one of our moorings, so I'm sure of the facts).

 

So much for letting the market set the rate!

 

As you can see, this is a hobby horse of mine - I genuinely believe it is one of the daftest ideas they ever had!

[MtB]

As far as MB's comment, "worrying about getting ticketed" isn't something that CART are causing anywhere near Leo or me.

 

Indeed. It was a tongue in cheek comment. The only boat I've ever seen ticketed was one that had been moored and locked up for a week on the loading wharf/water point/sanitary station at Sutton's Stop.

 

I suspect that enforcing the moorings limits probably costs more in man-hours than it yields, hence BW's and CRT's long term reluctance to ever get to grips with the problem.

 

I notice that visitor mooring signs are all being changed now from "Max stay X days" to "Max stay without charge- X days". From this I infer one can stay anywhere one likes now for as long as one likes by paying the daily charge of £25.

[alan_fincher]

More competition from Marinas which are generally part-empty I would agree with, but CRT only get 9% of a (non-BWML) Marina mooring fee whereas they get all of an on-line mooring fee and under the new arrangements they know that they will get this for three years at least.

 

Not quite correct - CRT are only guaranteed the first six months, after which you can give notice and terminate your LTM agreement.

 

That's right - they only lock you in for 6 months, not the full three years.

 

Mooring agreements have varied over time, but AFAIK for people who's arrangements predate tenders and auctions on BW moorings only one month's notice usually applies.

 

That is why it is not expensive to jack one in, if you can get a significantly better deal bidding on an alternative one.

 

I think for both tendered and auctioned moorings, once that initial 6 motnhs are over, that the notice period becomes 2 months, not 1 month. However I believe it may have not been a constant, so you need to check the terms and conditions you agreed to when first taking up a mooring.

 

 

I could start to tell you how clumsy the arrangements are as you move back from a tendered mooring to a standard agreement, but that would take a whole heap longer. Suffice it to say, I was given a load of answers by someone a week or so back that appeared to have been nonsense at the time, and have since proved to be. It must by now be something they are doing a lot of, so I'm disappointed those answering questions seem completely unaware how the process really works!

[MtB]

I would certainly worry if I moored my boat on the towpath for a couple of months that it might take four weeks of £25 a day charges to accrue before I noticed.

[LEO]

Because the payers can moor up and forget their boats for long periods without worrying about getting ticketed while they get on with their 'other life', on the bank.

 

Mike

 

That's probably the thinking behind the CM/CM who has left a boat (with a 'for sale' notice on it) for 3 months near the winding hole at Cowroast.

 

ATB

 

L.

[alan_fincher]

That's probably the thinking behind the CM/CM who has left a boat (with a 'for sale' notice on it) for 3 months near the winding hole at Cowroast.

 

ATB

 

L.

 

From recent experience, it seems that enforcement only kicks in that area when.....

 

1) You have stop planks in a few hundred yards in one direction

2) You have padlocks on the gates a lesser direction in the other

3) The canal level is a foot or more down

4) There are over 2" of solid ice on the cut.

 

Once they had got all those conditions applying, unusually BW did move in on the boats on that stretch, and try and collect a winter mooring fee, (as you know!).

 

Whatever the rights and wrongs of those doing the "mooring" BW's behaviour is on occasions completely inexplicable, (well, to me, at least!)

[David Mack]

More competition from Marinas which are generally part-empty I would agree with, but CRT only get 9% of a (non-BWML) Marina mooring fee whereas they get all of an on-line mooring fee and under the new arrangements they know that they will get this for three years at least.

 

The Marina Investment Guide that BW produced a few years ago said that a marina operator would pay 9% of the mooring income to BW, calculated on the basis that the marina was fully occupied, whether or not it was actually full. So BW/CRT's income from the marina is fixed, and it is the marina operator who takes the risk on the level of occupancy. Presumably the relatively low 9% figure was determined to allow for the fact that most marinas will not be 100% full 100% of the time.

[Tuscan]

The Marina Investment Guide that BW produced a few years ago said that a marina operator would pay 9% of the mooring income to BW, calculated on the basis that the marina was fully occupied, whether or not it was actually full. So BW/CRT's income from the marina is fixed, and it is the marina operator who takes the risk on the level of occupancy. Presumably the relatively low 9% figure was determined to allow for the fact that most marinas will not be 100% full 100% of the time.

 

 

 

 

 

 

And there has been a substantial rise in marina berths in recent years , I wonder if hat is why Barby have not installed the pontoons yet?

[BEngo]

And there has been a substantial rise in marina berths in recent years , I wonder if hat is why Barby have not installed the pontoons yet?

 

The fee has to be calculated/agreed before BW/CART will sanction connection of the marina. Barby can expect a demand for fees based on the agreed length of mooring, regardless of whether the pontoons/boats etc. are actually there. The New Marinas unit are pretty good at working out how many boats you could get in a given space and are involved in the statutory Planning process so make sure that they know how many boats the marina is allowed to have. They then base their calculations on that.

 

N

[dor]

My CaRT mooring has several vacancies. I think part of the problem is that for years they have been increasing the rates, claiming they have to charge the going rate and not unfairly undercut other operators. It is quite clear now that they are overcharging, but to reduce the fee would be an admission that they are overcharging. As BW has demonstrated all the business acumen of a bankrupt cockroach, I don't suppose they can see that a fee of say 70% the current rate is better than no fee at all.

[LEO]

 

From recent experience, it seems that enforcement only kicks in that area when.....

 

1) You have stop planks in a few hundred yards in one direction

2) You have padlocks on the gates a lesser direction in the other

3) The canal level is a foot or more down

4) There are over 2" of solid ice on the cut.

 

Once they had got all those conditions applying, unusually BW did move in on the boats on that stretch, and try and collect a winter mooring fee, (as you know!).

 

Whatever the rights and wrongs of those doing the "mooring" BW's behaviour is on occasions completely inexplicable, (well, to me, at least!)

 

 

Err yes that was difficult to work out, perhaps the work being carried out on a Saturday may have had something to do with it.

 

I was a bit p****d off they way the thick ice was pushed around the canal into moored boats, not on one weekend but two consecutive ones.

 

L.

[Proper Job]

I would certainly worry if I moored my boat on the towpath for a couple of months that it might take four weeks of £25 a day charges to accrue before I noticed.

Surely if you moored your boat on the towpath for a couple of months without moving it, you would be highly likely to be charged the £25 per day over stay charge.

 

I wish they'd inforce it

[robdalej]

Just had similar situation on a mooring we have just won. decided we wanted to move our mooring and found one that we liked ,when it came up for auction I bid quite a lot more than the reserve price , the auction ran fr two weeks with us being the only bidder up until one day before the end , another bid then went in , which upped the price by another £165 a year, because I had already put in a maximum high offer we still got the mooring but it cost us an extra £170 p.a . A few days later another mooring became available on the same site for a 65 ft mooring(ours was for a 55ft) that auction finished with no takers and actually had alower reserve price on than the one we had won , so had I stuck out, I would have got a longer mooring for a cheaper price , crazy system badly thought out