bloody trusts

[Chertsey]

Its not different, its essentially an equivalent qualification.

On paper perhaps, but standards of training and examining are very variable. I have heard many good reports of CCBM but my own experience suggested that it was not very stringent at all.

 

There will always be a problem with 'trust' boats which is essentially that they are crewed by volunteers who may have a great deal more enthusiasm than experience/expertise, and who may also not be primarily interested in the boating aspect of the organisation. This is compounded by the fact that often the trainers are not that good either, or only have limited experience.

 

On the whole I would cut them some slack, they are no doubt doing their best, but if the organisation itself is refusing to respond to complaints a word with Community Boats Association, of which the organisation in question is no doubt a member, might be in order.

[ditchcrawler]

Its not different, its essentially an equivalent qualification.

I would suggest that you dont say that to people who hold a Boatmasters ticket and have paid out for the training, medical and examination see here

[Chertsey]

Are you sure about this? I had always thought that to skipper a boat carrying up to 12 pasengers you needed either the RYA Inland Waterways Helsmans certificate or the Community Boats one. For boats over 12 passengers, I thought you needed the boatmasters certificate as issued by the MCA. With all the "bits" (fire , water safety, first aid etc certificates also needed) to get the MCA certificate, I don't think it is an equivalent qualification.

 

haggis

No, you need nothing for 12 passengers and up to 3 crew. The CCBM allows you to go over that limit in certain circumstances, I think it is taken to be equivalent to the most basic Boatmaster qualification (non tidal etc).

 

I would suggest that you dont say that to people who hold a Boatmasters ticket and have paid out for the training, medical and examination see here

Sorry but rightly or wrongly it is accepted by some bodies (including the MCA) in some circumstances. My knowledge of Boatmaster is sketchy but I believe there is a basic ticket and then lots of add-ons for specific circumstances, waterways etc. CCBM is only equivalent to the most basic level.

[haggis]

No, you need nothing for 12 passengers and up to 3 crew. The CCBM allows you to go over that limit in certain circumstances, I think it is taken to be equivalent to the most basic Boatmaster qualification (non tidal etc).

 

Sorry but rightly or wrongly it is accepted by some bodies (including the MCA) in some circumstances. My knowledge of Boatmaster is sketchy but I believe there is a basic ticket and then lots of add-ons for specific circumstances, waterways etc. CCBM is only equivalent to the most basic level.

 

I think it must depend on where you boat! In Scotland, to skipper a boat which is carrying up to 12 passengers, you MUST have either the RYA or the CCBM. None of the organisations up here with passenger boats would let you skipper otherwise. I don't know about other canal societies but I know that the one I am most involved with, our boat insurance has that as a condition. Getting a boatmasters certificate (even the basic one) from the MCA is not easy. As the link Ditchcrawler mentioned says, you need to have a medical, certificates in fire safety, water safety and first aid and then submit an application stating what experience you have had (as assistant skipper etc). Then, if that is all acceptable to the MCA (and I know of some which have been turned down at this stage) you get a practical test on knowledge of the boat and the water you are applying to skipper on and a boat driving test. You need to renew your licence every 5 years which involves submitting valid certificates, having another medical and giving evidence of your skippering experience in the previous 5 years. You need to have done a minumum number of trips.

The chap who skippered the QE2 for several years has recently passed his RYA IW test and is now being trained for his MCA test which will enable him to do work for canal charities driving passenger boats! Ludicrous, I know, but thems the rules we have to operate to.

If some organisations down south are accepting the RYA IW or CCBM when the boat is carrying more than 12 passenmgers then I wonder if they are operating legally and therefore have insurance cover. As I understand it, the MCA has been given responsibility from the Government to lay down the rules for passenger boats on inland waterways.

At one point, the MCA proposed that skippers of under 12 passenger boats should have an MCA boatmasters and this was vehemently opposed by organisiations like the Seagull Trust and canal societies and a compromise of the RYA or CCBM was introduced. At the time the IWA offered to train, test and provide certification but I don't know if they still do that or not.

 

haggis

 

haggis

[Tim]

I think it must depend on where you boat! In Scotland, to skipper a boat which is carrying up to 12 passengers, you MUST have either the RYA or the CCBM. None of the organisations up here with passenger boats would let you skipper otherwise. I don't know about other canal societies but I know that the one I am most involved with, our boat insurance has that as a condition. Getting a boatmasters certificate (even the basic one) from the MCA is not easy. As the link Ditchcrawler mentioned says, you need to have a medical, certificates in fire safety, water safety and first aid and then submit an application stating what experience you have had (as assistant skipper etc). Then, if that is all acceptable to the MCA (and I know of some which have been turned down at this stage) you get a practical test on knowledge of the boat and the water you are applying to skipper on and a boat driving test. You need to renew your licence every 5 years which involves submitting valid certificates, having another medical and giving evidence of your skippering experience in the previous 5 years. You need to have done a minumum number of trips.

The chap who skippered the QE2 for several years has recently passed his RYA IW test and is now being trained for his MCA test which will enable him to do work for canal charities driving passenger boats! Ludicrous, I know, but thems the rules we have to operate to.

If some organisations down south are accepting the RYA IW or CCBM when the boat is carrying more than 12 passenmgers then I wonder if they are operating legally and therefore have insurance cover. As I understand it, the MCA has been given responsibility from the Government to lay down the rules for passenger boats on inland waterways.

At one point, the MCA proposed that skippers of under 12 passenger boats should have an MCA boatmasters and this was vehemently opposed by organisiations like the Seagull Trust and canal societies and a compromise of the RYA or CCBM was introduced. At the time the IWA offered to train, test and provide certification but I don't know if they still do that or not.

 

haggis

 

haggis

 

The reality is that all you need to do to revalidate your license with the MCA is to get a medical every 5 years or every year if over 65. Boatmaster licenses will be classified as to what type of water, 'A' is normal for canals, they also usually restrist you to a specific area of operation, mine limits me to the Basingstoke canal. It costs in the region of £750 to get all the certificates and MCA check. As I mentioned previously, the boat handling check is very basic.

[Paul C]

I would suggest that you dont say that to people who hold a Boatmasters ticket and have paid out for the training, medical and examination see here

 

The boat handling bit is the same, though.

[haggis]

The boat handling bit is the same, though.

 

I suppose that will depend on what the MCA or RYA or CB examiner wants you to do to show him that you can competently handle the boat.

 

Re Tims point about renewal, I think you need to have valid certificates for the various bits and if the last ones you submitted don't have an end date on them, then, yes, you just need the medical - and the fee :-)

haggis

Edited August 1, 2012 by haggis

[Pentargon]

Although most of the information handed down in this thread is not 'erroneous' a lot of it seems to be opinion rather than fact. I am a crew volunteer with Canalability in Harlow. Note: not mate, not skipper, crew. I completed a 2day CCC course which showed me all they expected me to know. the level of the course was about same as RYA day skipper. I also was expected to and did 10 River Practice Days on four different boats. Up to 68' long and 12'6" in the beam. I was assessed during these RPDs on ability to helm the boat safely, wind them, reverse long distances, moor up, operate locks. Before going out on my 1st real assignment I was obliged to do in house training on how to deal with disabled passengers, be CRBd, and other niceties. I am now into my 1st season and still will not be considered for 1st mate duties. I might mention that separately I own my own narrow-boat and have 58yrs recreational experience mostly under canvas and hold RYA yachtmaster 'qualifications'. Every skipper in canalability is not only CCCMd but is also a boat owner with considerable experience. (EG one skipper also skippers the steam NB "President".) I get the distinct impression that on this thread/topic I am the only contributor with actual experience of actual voluntary staffing of "trust" boats. In fairness I must finish by saying that two of the Canalability fleet are hired out to 'private' users and I have no idea what goes on in that side. I also have no experience at all of any other trust.

Edited August 1, 2012 by Pentargon

[haggis]

Although most of the information handed down in this thread is not 'erroneous' a lot of it seems to be opinion rather than fact. I am a crew volunteer with Canalability in Harlow. Note: not mate, not skipper, crew. I completed a 2day CCC course which showed me all they expected me to know. the level of the course was about same as RYA day skipper. I also was expected to and did 10 River Practice Days on four different boats. Up to 68' long and 12'6" in the beam. I was assessed during these RPDs on ability to helm the boat safely, wind them, reverse long distances, moor up, operate locks. Before going out on my 1st real assignment I was obliged to do in house training on how to deal with disabled passengers, be CRBd, and other niceties. I am now into my 1st season and still will not be considered for 1st mate duties. I might mention that separately I own my own narrow-boat and have 58yrs recreational experience mostly under canvas and hold RYA yachtmaster 'qualifications'. Every skipper in canalability is not only CCCMd but is also a boat owner with considerable experience. (EG one skipper also skippers the steam NB "President".) I get the distinct impression that on this thread/topic I am the only contributor with actual experience of actual voluntary staffing of "trust" boats. In fairness I must finish by saying that two of the Canalability fleet are hired out to 'private' users and I have no idea what goes on in that side. I also have no experience at all of any other trust.

Well done to Canalability on taking the responsibilities of crewing and skippering their boats so seriously. I am sure that most charitable organisations who run trip boats act responsibibly and the ones who don't are in the minority.

 

haggis

Edited August 1, 2012 by haggis

[Tim]

I suppose that will depend on what the MCA or RYA or CB examiner wants you to do to show him that you can competently handle the boat.

 

Re Tims point about renewal, I think you need to have valid certificates for the various bits and if the last ones you submitted don't have an end date on them, then, yes, you just need the medical - and the fee :-)

haggis

 

The MCA license revalidation form only asks for the medical, I've been onto the MCA about the first aid as it's only valid for 3 years, they can't answer the query! In reality I believe that you should have a valid first aid certificate, but the form does not require you to submit one. I know a number of boatmaster license holders that have out of date certificates!

[KenK]

The K&A Trust just had on 31st July an examination for new Boatmaster license, it included man overboard, fire on board both near a weir, numerous questions, it is certainly not easy. The First Aid certificate is a requirement for the Boatmaster license and must be renewed every three years. The MCA examine the boats, two out of water in five years and an in water every year, plus a paperwork inspection between the in water inspections, boat and crew paperwork. All our crews are trained not just the Boatmaster and we take any complaints very seriously.

 

I also know the organisation the OP complained about, the office is not always manned, hence possibly the failure to respond. The people crewing the boats have hired them, they do get some training before hiring because they are in charge of disabled people but be realistic these are big boats crewed by possibly inexperienced people giving up their time to help others, they make mistakes like all of us.

 

Ken

[Chertsey]

Although most of the information handed down in this thread is not 'erroneous' a lot of it seems to be opinion rather than fact. I am a crew volunteer with Canalability in Harlow. Note: not mate, not skipper, crew. I completed a 2day CCC course which showed me all they expected me to know. the level of the course was about same as RYA day skipper. I also was expected to and did 10 River Practice Days on four different boats. Up to 68' long and 12'6" in the beam. I was assessed during these RPDs on ability to helm the boat safely, wind them, reverse long distances, moor up, operate locks. Before going out on my 1st real assignment I was obliged to do in house training on how to deal with disabled passengers, be CRBd, and other niceties. I am now into my 1st season and still will not be considered for 1st mate duties. I might mention that separately I own my own narrow-boat and have 58yrs recreational experience mostly under canvas and hold RYA yachtmaster 'qualifications'. Every skipper in canalability is not only CCCMd but is also a boat owner with considerable experience. (EG one skipper also skippers the steam NB "President".) I get the distinct impression that on this thread/topic I am the only contributor with actual experience of actual voluntary staffing of "trust" boats. In fairness I must finish by saying that two of the Canalability fleet are hired out to 'private' users and I have no idea what goes on in that side. I also have no experience at all of any other trust.

No you are not. I also speak from experience of crewing, being trained and qualifying as a 'skipper' on a community boat. My experience is very different from yours.

 

The K&A Trust just had on 31st July an examination for new Boatmaster license, it included man overboard, fire on board both near a weir, numerous questions, it is certainly not easy. The First Aid certificate is a requirement for the Boatmaster license and must be renewed every three years. The MCA examine the boats, two out of water in five years and an in water every year, plus a paperwork inspection between the in water inspections, boat and crew paperwork. All our crews are trained not just the Boatmaster and we take any complaints very seriously.

 

I also know the organisation the OP complained about, the office is not always manned, hence possibly the failure to respond. The people crewing the boats have hired them, they do get some training before hiring because they are in charge of disabled people but be realistic these are big boats crewed by possibly inexperienced people giving up their time to help others, they make mistakes like all of us.

 

Ken

This is the other issue isn't it, that for more than twelve passengers the BOAT must be MCA inspected, which is also quite onerous.

[BargeeSpud]

..... and is then happy to use abusive and rude comments about other people.

Mate, you want rude & abusive, try some of the football club forums! We're positively polite on here even when there are serious disagreements, which I find very refreshing.

[carlt]

Mate, you want rude & abusive, try some of the football club forums!

Association Football is for scoundrels and vagabonds and one can expect nothing but mischief and caddish behaviour from such scamps.

[Tuscan]

The K&A Trust just had on 31st July an examination for new Boatmaster license, it included man overboard, fire on board both near a weir, numerous questions, it is certainly not easy. The First Aid certificate is a requirement for the Boatmaster license and must be renewed every three years. The MCA examine the boats, two out of water in five years and an in water every year, plus a paperwork inspection between the in water inspections, boat and crew paperwork. All our crews are trained not just the Boatmaster and we take any complaints very seriously.

 

I also know the organisation the OP complained about, the office is not always manned, hence possibly the failure to respond. The people crewing the boats have hired them, they do get some training before hiring because they are in charge of disabled people but be realistic these are big boats crewed by possibly inexperienced people giving up their time to help others, they make mistakes like all of us.

 

Ken

 

 

 

 

 

I would really rather they didn't "make mistakes like all of us" given they are in charge of disabled passengers.

[BargeeSpud]

Association Football is for scoundrels and vagabonds and one can expect nothing but mischief and caddish behaviour from such scamps.

 

You're a Rugger man then, I take it old bean.

[GSer]

Going back to the complaint about the trust boats, i have to agree a bit I suppose, i'm not too sure where the blame lyes.

 

A few weeks back I was moored below a lock quite local to a trust, i was working on my boats so was there all day for 3 days, each time one of the trust boats went through the lock they left it in one of two states, either draining the pound above or starving the pound below, for the first two boats I just popped out with the windlass and set it all back correctly, the third boat left the top gates open and then lifted the lower paddles, I thought this was a bit dodgy seeing as there was a flight ahead so i took a stroll with the dogs and approached the steerers, they were great and all was friendly but the bit that shocked me was that they claimed that their 'instructor' had told them to just leave the locks any old how, as there was always somebody about to put it right???????

 

I can't believe anybody in the Trust would tell them that so i'm guessing there is a communication issue at handover, should be simple enough to fix, but it does certainly need sorting.

 

As for the speeding & small collisions, I don't think you can just pick out the Trust's boats for attention, it's increasingly obvious that there are plenty of selfish ignorant boaters that just can't handle a boat at anything less than cruising speed, certainly too common an event to just single out the hirers from the trust.

[Ally]

I suppose some trust boats come under closer scrutiny for speeding past moored boats, because they are frequent passers by. Whilst the floods were here, there was only a short distance that could be travelled by ourselves and many other boats, including a particular trust. This meant we would see them pass sometimes 4 times in a day, and yet, even with just a short arm to travel, they still went like a bat out of hell......I can't think of one single reason for that. Their time must have been plenty, indeed one of them told us they had been booked for 4 days by one group, who had to just go between the junction or basin at Loughborough, and the winding hole at Pillings....perhaps an hour at average speed.......so why rush it???

 

**speeding day boats and private boats are also available**

[Tony Brooks]

Going back to the complaint about the trust boats, i have to agree a bit I suppose, i'm not too sure where the blame lyes.

 

A few weeks back I was moored below a lock quite local to a trust, i was working on my boats so was there all day for 3 days, each time one of the trust boats went through the lock they left it in one of two states, either draining the pound above or starving the pound below, for the first two boats I just popped out with the windlass and set it all back correctly, the third boat left the top gates open and then lifted the lower paddles, I thought this was a bit dodgy seeing as there was a flight ahead so i took a stroll with the dogs and approached the steerers, they were great and all was friendly but the bit that shocked me was that they claimed that their 'instructor' had told them to just leave the locks any old how, as there was always somebody about to put it right???????

 

I can't believe anybody in the Trust would tell them that so i'm guessing there is a communication issue at handover, should be simple enough to fix, but it does certainly need sorting.

 

As for the speeding & small collisions, I don't think you can just pick out the Trust's boats for attention, it's increasingly obvious that there are plenty of selfish ignorant boaters that just can't handle a boat at anything less than cruising speed, certainly too common an event to just single out the hirers from the trust.

 

 

I can confirm that late last week one of their boats was leaving all four paddles up on the Crofton flight and another boater had to reset them. When told the hirers said they had been told to leave all the paddles up.

 

This is not only miscommunication back at base but also a total inability to read the clear notices on the balance beams that explain exactly how locks should be left.

[Dominic M]

Association Football is for scoundrels and vagabonds and one can expect nothing but mischief and caddish behaviour from such scamps.

Carlt - Captain, Leader, Legend. Or was that Johnt?

[GSer]

I can confirm that late last week one of their boats was leaving all four paddles up on the Crofton flight and another boater had to reset them. When told the hirers said they had been told to leave all the paddles up.

 

This is not only miscommunication back at base but also a total inability to read the clear notices on the balance beams that explain exactly how locks should be left.

 

 

I got the feeling that at those locks the instructions sould be on all beams not just the bottom beams, i'm no great lover of over signing locks but inevitably if the boat is travelling upstream the crew tend to congregate at the upstream end whilst the lock is filling.

[carlt]

You're a Rugger man then, I take it old bean.

Only for the purposes of the joke.

 

Rugby League, Football then Union coming up a distant third.