Guide to Buying a Historic Narrowboat

[koukouvagia]

I'm not sure that the usual rules apply when buying an historic boat. Both of our boats were spur of the moment decisions. After all Josher motors don't come up very often, especially if they have semi diesel as part of the deal. Again, ten years later, when a rare Braithwaite and Kirk butty became available, we leapt in again. I didn't bother with surveys. It was obvious that both boats would need rebottoming and the butty needed refooting as well. I was surprised with the state of the cabin on the motor. It looked good – until I leant against the side and my hand squelched into the sodden woodwork.

 

I'd make the following observations:

 

Always go to one of the top restorers. These guys have years of experience and have huge pride in theirwork. Follow their advice – they've seen it all before. Of course, you may have to wait some time (I had to wait eighteen months) until they can fit you in. Also, don't get wound up over dates. Inevitably they will overrun on jobs while you're waiting for your slot.

 

It may sound cock-eyed, but I've never asked for more than a ball park figure. Once the major work begins there will always snags and unforeseen problems. I've always agreed to pay for an invoice which is submitted each month. The ones I got from WFBCo describe all the work in great detail and will provide an excellent reference if I ever get round to writing up the account of the restorations.

 

Keep in touch with your chosen restorer. I'd travel up from London to Stockton every Saturday to review the week's work and discuss what was going to happen next. This way there are no nasty surprises and misunderstandings.

 

The order I did the work was

1. the bottom and footings.

2. the engine

3. the cabin

4. the steelwork for the undercloth conversions

 

 

Estimating costs is very difficult and will depend on too many variables to give much sensible advice. In my case of the motor the cost of the restoration was five times the original cost of the boat; while to restore the butty it cost four times the price of the boat. In both cases I did all the fitting outmyself.

 

How long will it take to do all the necessary work? Again, a pretty impossible question to answer. When I only had weekends and holidays it took two and a half years to fit the motor out. When I was able to devote three or four days a week to fitting out the butty, it took six months.

 

Best of luck in your search.

[GSer]

Wasn't Cygnus recently plated as recently as 2009 / 2010 ?

 

 

A new baseplate was added then but the yard that did ithe work, wouldn't say if the footings? and knees were servicable at that time, if it were me putting a new bum on it i'd wan't to make sure all was well with what the new steel was welded to, the guy who did the work just said that wasn't always so, i got the feeling he was after me taking cygnus to him again for an out of water hull survey.

 

i chatted to a past owners son, Dave Harris, he said that he had pretty much rebuilt it 30 years ago, i know 30 years is a long time in the boat world, but that fact also gave me a little confidence. Then Added to that the fact that it had had money spent on the hull in the last few years did help me with my decision not to survey.

 

Over the last 6mths i've seen perhaps 10 boats surveyed here, of those, In my very humble opinion, perhaps half of the surveyors, missed some serious issues, this made me lose a little confidence in the surveyors trade, i'm sure there are good and bad surveyors just as there are good and bad tradesmen everywhere, its just this time i've decided to keep the cash in my pocket.

 

Paul

[alan_fincher]

Amy,

 

As some are treating this as you want a boat to restore, maybe you could make your intentions a bit clearer ?

 

In your circumstances, I kind of assumed you were looking for something you could live on more or less from point of purchase, even if work required.

 

So what are your constraints on this, because with the best will in the world, if you want one of the well known firms Koukouvagia refers to working on it, you might be a long while before you had a habitable boat.

 

Mike Askin's observations are interesting, because I would have said that Victoria at £30K is a pretty good deal, and he suggests another £10K to sort engine, paint, and other basics. That comes out at circa £40K for an unconverted GU motor, in reasonable order, and that seems fairly in line with what I have heard about other unconverted GU motors that have sold.

 

Now if you want a converted one, and still something with as much "pedigree", I reckon you are probably looking easily at another £20K for something with a full steel cabin, well equipped, with a reasonable fit-out. So if you are lucky, maybe something advertised at the £60K kind of level, but bought maybe nearer to £50K, but with Mike's "plus £10K" expectation of spend still bringing it back up more around the £60K mark. This is perhaps backed up by the considerable doubts I have heard about some converted boats at that kind of money, where hull condition sounded questionable. (And of course it is harder to ascertain what knees and other bits are like, if the boat has a conversion!).

 

Of course £60K (say) for a beautiful 70 foot live-aboard isn't that bad when compared to some fairly middle of the road modern boats on the market for similar (or more!) money, but I think is a reasonable planning assumption. Much less than that, and my guess is it will either be a considerably less "desirable" boat, or have issues where you are going to need a large heap of cash in reserve to tackle them.

 

We did spend time investigating taking on a historic boat, already being restored with a full tug-style cabin conversion, when we planned to replace our modern boat, (rather than keep it, and run a second boat in addition). That experience led me to believe that if you commission one for yourself, the likely total bill may be well in excess of taking on one that somebody has already done. Others may disagree, but even with Sickle, though we didn't get her cheaply, I think she would have cost us far more if we had bought the hulk, and started there, rather than buying somebody else's (largely) completed project.

[Proper Job]

Baldock was advertised at £60K IIRC?

 

Fully converted and in pretty good order

[Chertsey]

Baldock was advertised at £60K IIRC?

 

Fully converted and in pretty good order

The problem with a fully converted boat of course is that you can't inspect the baseplate, knees etc. Even the seller may have no idea about what state they're in or what has been done to them in the past.

 

I would fully concur with everything KK says above. If you have a restorer in mind, if you can, take them to look at the boat before you buy it. I would say you'd get much more relevant and useful information from this than from a standard survey.

 

Another point to add to Mike's - if it's got a wooden conversion, be even more aware of possible spreading issues - ask how the sides have been held in. And check very carefully for water ingress that could be rotting the hull from inside.

 

A tape measure isn't very useful; make yourself a gauge from a piece of wood with two weighted strings attached. Fix one string at one end and make the other one moveable and mark the stick off at 7' and upwards in half inch intervals. The boat needs to be level side to side for this to work so take a spirit level too. Rest the stick across the cabin top/gunnels and adjust so that the string just clears/barely touches the sides. Well, that's the theory anyway. I'll tell you if it works after we've tried to get Bakewell into Hurleston.

Edited February 22, 2012 by Chertsey

[Black Ibis]

Thanks all for your contributions so far! It's very useful reading.

 

Amy,

 

As some are treating this as you want a boat to restore, maybe you could make your intentions a bit clearer ?

 

In your circumstances, I kind of assumed you were looking for something you could live on more or less from point of purchase, even if work required.

 

 

 

I don't mind people giving titbits of advice about buying to convert, as I'm sure others would benefit from the info, but yes, you're quite right, we would like something which we can live in immediately, and make our 'forever' boat - i.e it may not be perfect condition but we would gradually work on it over the years as and when we could afford it (with money in a contingency savings account in case of urgent repairs!).

 

The problem with a fully converted boat of course is that you can't inspect the baseplate, knees etc. Even the seller may have no idea about what state they're in or what has been done to them in the past.

 

I would fully concur with everything KK says above. If you have a restorer in mind, if you can, take them to look at the boat before you buy it. I would say you'd get much more relevant and useful information from this than from a standard survey.

 

Another point to add to Mike's - if it's got a wooden conversion, be even more aware of possible spreading issues - ask how the sides have been held in. And check very carefully for water ingress that could be rotting the hull from inside.

 

A tape measure isn't very useful; make yourself a gauge from a piece of wood with two weighted strings attached. Fix one string at one end and make the other one moveable and mark the stick off at 7' and upwards in half inch intervals. The boat needs to be level side to side for this to work so take a spirit level too. Rest the stick across the cabin top/gunnels and adjust so that the string just clears/barely touches the sides. Well, that's the theory anyway. I'll tell you if it works after we've tried to get Bakewell into Hurleston.

 

Love this idea of the string. Will definitely be bringing one when we visit any boats!

Edited February 22, 2012 by Black Ibis

[Admiral]

I think there has been some very informative stuff issued here.

 

I think the biggest concern with buying a converted historic boat is as Chertsey points out a)Its very hard to see the inside of the hull b)If something does need doing its very destructive on the interior.

 

I have owned 7 old boats and never had a survey, ( I think Alan F did a survey on ratio of boats bought without a survey?) as was mentioned previously they never really find everything and with me its about the boat.

 

My advice would be to ask boat builders (there are a few good ones that really know their stuff) and try to keep your heart from overpaying!

 

My current boat I wanted for years and when eventually I got it the 5k price tag reflected what was need to be done to it and the costs of restoring are approaching 15X the cost of the boat!

 

Good luck with your searching.

[Chertsey]

I think there has been some very informative stuff issued here.

 

I think the biggest concern with buying a converted historic boat is as Chertsey points out a)Its very hard to see the inside of the hull b)If something does need doing its very destructive on the interior.

 

I have owned 7 old boats and never had a survey, ( I think Alan F did a survey on ratio of boats bought without a survey?) as was mentioned previously they never really find everything and with me its about the boat.

 

My advice would be to ask boat builders (there are a few good ones that really know their stuff) and try to keep your heart from overpaying!

 

My current boat I wanted for years and when eventually I got it the 5k price tag reflected what was need to be done to it and the costs of restoring are approaching 15X the cost of the boat!

 

Good luck with your searching.

It was me that did that poll, I think, if anyone was thinking of looking for it. As I recall, about one person out of fifteen had a survey prior to purchasing a historic boat. This is largely because you assume that it will need work, and let's face it, a survey isn't going to change your mind about buying the boat, so why waste the money!

[Admiral]

"a survey isn't going to change your mind about buying the boat, so why waste the money!"

 

Exactly..!!

[GSer]

"a survey isn't going to change your mind about buying the boat, so why waste the money!"

 

Exactly..!!

 

 

My thoughts exactly!

[bargemast]

My thoughts exactly!

 

 

Hello Paul,

 

congratulations with your butty, I hope that friday will be a very happy day for you, and that the boat is in an even better condition then you'de hoped for.

 

Cheers,

 

Peter.

[MtB]

Hi, I too am hunting for a historic NB. the HNBOC AGM is that 3rd March?

 

Are you aware the Kevin Whittle's boat 'Tebay' is for sale in this month's HNBOC mag? A bargain at £35k IMO.

 

Mike

[Admiral]

My thoughts exactly!

 

I looked at Cygnus before the last guy bought her. Good and straight boat. My boat was delayed going onto the dock when the wooden bottom on Cygnus started leaking after a docking, was a case of having to put a new bottom on. From what I can remember the rest of the hull was good. I think if you were going to convert the boat only then maybe get the footings done? Are you bring to Braunston this year? Could come and give you a tow....

[alan_fincher]

Are you aware the Kevin Whittle's boat 'Tebay' is for sale in this month's HNBOC mag? A bargain at £35k IMO.

 

Mike

You what ?!?

 

I didn't notice that!

 

Now can I get away with buying a third boat before I get found out ?!?

 

 

 

(Lovely!.....)

[Speedwheel]

Ah, but our insurance doesn't require a survey, so genuinely does cost only sixty nine quid.

£69! You were done. Think I paid about £62.

[Tiggers]

Get away with you Alan, Ive got my eye on her! Literally, she is moored next to me, just had a survey so I think she may have been sold Shame, she would look nice next to Canis, and I could banish the other half to Tebay when he touches the stove or engine, he will never learn...

Edited February 22, 2012 by Tiggers

[Speedwheel]

 

(Lovely!.....)

 

Really? I've always thought it was horrible. I think the cabin looks all wrong and with far to much upward sweep at the back. As a result the rams head is far to high. New cabin and rams head and it would be a nice boat. And what is going on with that fender?

[Derek R.]

- And what is going on with that fender?

 

It's missing its friends.

 

Speaking of missing something . . .

[Timleech]

Really? I've always thought it was horrible. I think the cabin looks all wrong and with far to much upward sweep at the back. As a result the rams head is far to high. New cabin and rams head and it would be a nice boat. And what is going on with that fender?

 

Agreed, in fact it looks as though the ram's head isn't high enough, as judging from that picture the tiller bar wouldn't clear the tops of the doors. Also the counter wrapper seems to be leaning backwards.

 

Tim

[Chertsey]

£69! You were done. Think I paid about £62.

But isn't yours shorter?

[Laurence Hogg]

I think there has been some very informative stuff issued here.

 

I think the biggest concern with buying a converted historic boat is as Chertsey points out a)Its very hard to see the inside of the hull b)If something does need doing its very destructive on the interior.

 

I have owned 7 old boats and never had a survey, ( I think Alan F did a survey on ratio of boats bought without a survey?) as was mentioned previously they never really find everything and with me its about the boat.

 

My advice would be to ask boat builders (there are a few good ones that really know their stuff) and try to keep your heart from overpaying!

 

My current boat I wanted for years and when eventually I got it the 5k price tag reflected what was need to be done to it and the costs of restoring are approaching 15X the cost of the boat!

 

Good luck with your searching.

 

I never have had a survey either on any of my boats. Just went round with a big hammer and looked for the obvious signs, construction techniques and materials were much more reliable than modern steel boats and simply outlast. As with my wooden boats the big hammere was the sounding tool, never let me down.

[Chertsey]

Agreed, in fact it looks as though the ram's head isn't high enough, as judging from that picture the tiller bar wouldn't clear the tops of the doors. Also the counter wrapper seems to be leaning backwards.

 

Tim

Not sure about the bale of hay on the cabin top either... Unless it's a missing fender?

[GSer]

I looked at Cygnus before the last guy bought her. Good and straight boat. My boat was delayed going onto the dock when the wooden bottom on Cygnus started leaking after a docking, was a case of having to put a new bottom on. From what I can remember the rest of the hull was good. I think if you were going to convert the boat only then maybe get the footings done? Are you bring to Braunston this year? Could come and give you a tow....

 

 

Any conversion in place now will be removed, the bits of it will be reintsated to suit me, i'll keep most of the hold as a creative space, but i want the accomodation to be suitable for visitors, sort of a granny flat comfey and cosy i love visitors to stay but i love them more when they leave!

 

I'd love to go to braunston if the dates suit, would i not be allowed in with Apache and cygnus? It all depends on water levels of course, in my head i'm sort of resigned to a summer on the thames.

 

Paul

[Admiral]

would i not be allowed in with Apache and cygnus?

 

Paul

 

I did not know that your motor was an old boat sorry..

 

Steve

[MtB]

You what ?!?

 

I didn't notice that!

 

Now can I get away with buying a third boat before I get found out ?!?

 

Well I could almost have been persuaded to sell Reginald to buy Tebay, prior to SpeedWheel pointing out the daft back cabin shape. Now I'm not so sure...

 

Fancy going halves?

 

Hard to imagine another real josher ever coming to market for just £35k.... No doubt someone will be along to tell me it isn't a josher now, such is my limited knowledge

 

Mike