Pre-purchase surveys on historic boats

[Chertsey]

If I didn't like my current sig so much, I'd replace it with 'Nothing matters very much, and very few things matter at all' (attributed to Arthur Balfour). I speak as a former, now happily recovered, worrier.

[Derek R.]

Just don't jump in with pockets full of cash not knowing the depth. Survey away - but you will find things different to a surveyor after six months.

If it worries you - leave well alone.

If you have everything to lose - be very careful.

If you worry about losing anything - you will worry yourself into an early grave.

If you worry about missing out - stop worrying! Look around and enjoy what good things you have.

 

People aren't 'born' worriers, they just learn it along the way - some more than others. Life is short, but only the one we are currently in.

[Hairy-Neil]

Last years compulsory four yearly insurance survey on Nuneaton revealed wear on the chines under the engine room that wouldn't necessarily have been pick up otherwise and would probably have sunk her on the coal run. Point being I think owners of old deepish drafted boats should know what hull thickness they're working with and what condition the rivets are in so they can plan repairs etc. We had the rest of the rear end chines done this year so are happy we're probably OK for another 5 years, but if the insurance company want us to prove it before then, we'll have her out of the water again. No point spending weeks/months/years making 'em look pretty then have them sink.

 

I was present at a 'Nuneaton' insurance survey in the late 90s and was the bod who sanded off the blacking at, perhaps, a dozen randomly chosen places on the hull sides where the surveyer had chalked a X. An ultrasound test was then carried out. The hull survey passed with flying colours, though the man added an advisory remark about a crack in the rudder that I had noticed and drawn his attention to.

 

With the little knowledge of old boats I had at the time, my thoughts were that he was daft to measure randomly. I would have checked out known weaknesses, such as corrosion around the knees and wear near the cabin bulkheads. As the trust's put upon welder/fabricator at the time I was happy the formality was securred with flying colours and the the spots I knew were weak points could be tackled at a more leisurely pace.

 

For a proper appraisal of hull condition I would be going to a repairer of historic boats for an honest opinion based on a lifetime of experience, rather than a man with a van and an electronic gadget....

[LEO]

Bugger! Really ?

 

I (genuinely) have always been one of life's natural worriers.

 

I will let you know in a few months if I'm currently in the process of making one of life's big mistakes !

 

Being serious, though, there can be a very different slant on things.....

 

I can't remember what I have said on the forum but for around 20 years now one of my closest friends has been a former school class mate, who I didn't know well at school, but who I re hooked up with when we were all circa 40, and who has been an enormous supporter to me at a difficult patch in my life a few years ago.

 

Just over a week ago, I heard he had a massive coronary on the Saturday, didn't regain conciousness, and was dead about a day later. Coming after several not dissimilar happenings over quite a short while, it has shaken both I and Cath to the core.

 

Increasingly I start to wonder if my usual uber-cautious approach to life is a total mistake. If you don't sometimes take and seize an opportunity now, perhaps with an element of risk, (and even some overspend!), you may never get the chance to realise an ambition.

 

(Sorry! - lecture about life's philosophies now ends!).

 

I still couldn't possibly recommend any narrow boat buyer not to have a survey though!

 

EDITED TO ADD:

 

Bloomin 'eck - now standing at 12:0 for no:yes! I really would never have predicted that!

 

go for it Alan,

 

I used to have a cautious approach, but since I became ill I tend to 'live for the day' - purchased both my boats without a survey (not old boats) but because they were 'what I wanted'.

 

Just bear in mind that ownership of an old boat is like owning and old cottage or a vintage car - you always have to shell out on maintenance - and keep on top of it.

 

Best of Luck.

 

Leo.

 

PS 'm just about to shell out on an expensive paint job - you can't take it with you!.

[c c]

Clearly all historic boat owners are either surveyors, stinking rich, or just plain daft! (Some may even be all three, I suppose...)

 

None of them - just realistic. We bought Badsey KNOWING it had a seethrough bottom and a Perkins engine that I hated. We just assumed that over time we would have to replace everything and that we would not get the investment back if we sold it. We had a survey done AFTER we bought it but that was just to establish how much Brinklow Boats would have to replace. The result can be seen on www.badseys.co.uk

And for the forum fatalists - Badsey is not for sale and is in our will to the grandchildren who enjoy staying on it when they visit.

Live Long or Prosper!

[carlt]

We had a survey done AFTER we bought it

The owner of the boat I expect to buy (if timings are right) asked when I would like to have it surveyed.

 

I told him a few weeks after I've bought it.

 

Once the boat is mine I will go over it with a fine tooth comb, to form a restoration plan, and if it is a lot worse than I think I will get a couple of other boat builders to look and offer an opinion.

 

Then again I found another boat, last night, 30 years older, needing more work, in completely the wrong location and 2 grand dearer, but we both fell in love with.

[Mrs Humdinger]

As Carl says, there's no secret and no specific website for sales as such. There are several yards up and down the country that specialise in ex-working boats, their preservation and repair, and general knowledge of the cut and its history will be all that is needed to discover them. The Fuller's; Brinklow Boats; Stockton Dry Dock - and more, and many that don't have websites.

 

One clue is in becoming familiar with the boats names. All the ex-working boats are well documented in many books, and scanning the general boat sales columns in the various publications will find them out.

 

For general information there's the Historic Narrow Boat Owners Club. Events listed, and plenty of opportunities to meet and chat. Old boats, like old steam loco's, traction engines and vintage cars, are a lifestyle, but expensive. Love it and live it, or best left alone and maybe just watched. Sensible people will watch and admire/criticise, but then along comes an emotion . . . an interest . . then a longing. "We're doomed Mrs. Humdinger - doomed!"

 

That is interesting, and I will go and have a read, although Mr Hum is about as resistant as it gets! A bit off topic but a couple of weeks ago I saw NB Lapal, one of Barry Hawkins boats. There was a Gardner engine, complete with lots of shiny brass bits and the wall plaque, thumping away in the engine room. I have to confess, I watched wide-eyed as it went past - one of those "i want one of those" moments. Maybe I just like engines!!! Anyway, I duly went back and made Mr Hum come out and look. There was a look of total abject horror on his face as he peered into the engine room. OK, so it wasn't in any way a historic boat or an historic engine, but Mr Hum thinks that "proper" engines take 10 times more looking after than our Beta 43. Is this the case, or is it really just a knack?

[Chertsey]

That is interesting, and I will go and have a read, although Mr Hum is about as resistant as it gets! A bit off topic but a couple of weeks ago I saw NB Lapal, one of Barry Hawkins boats. There was a Gardner engine, complete with lots of shiny brass bits and the wall plaque, thumping away in the engine room. I have to confess, I watched wide-eyed as it went past - one of those "i want one of those" moments. Maybe I just like engines!!! Anyway, I duly went back and made Mr Hum come out and look. There was a look of total abject horror on his face as he peered into the engine room. OK, so it wasn't in any way a historic boat or an historic engine, but Mr Hum thinks that "proper" engines take 10 times more looking after than our Beta 43. Is this the case, or is it really just a knack?

Dunno, but they're more fun.

[carlt]

OK, so it wasn't in any way a historic boat or an historic engine, but Mr Hum thinks that "proper" engines take 10 times more looking after than our Beta 43. Is this the case, or is it really just a knack?

The most I ever did, to my 'vintage engines' was change the oil and filters, though I did do a head gasket, on the AS3 that had been underwater for 4 years...took a couple of hours.

 

The relatively modern Fords, in the lifeboat, however, are heaps of junk that require more cosseting than a temperamental baby.

 

Anyone know where I can get a pair of 6 pot Gardners?

[Derek R.]

More people get more trouble with modern engines than those built with fewer complexities. Sounds like you have a mountain to move!

 

Will these do Carl?

 

 

PS There are 'strings' attached.

 

Another PS: Mrs. Hum, that Gardner you saw will stil be running sweet long after we are all pushing up Daisies. Will the Beta?

You will often find 'old' stuff being better catered for than many modern equivalents. Engineering shops usually warm to something well built and with historic attachments.

Edited May 10, 2011 by Derek R.

[mykaskin]

Just remember, that if you want an historic boat you may well have to folk out large amounts of money to keep it afloat. Don't buy it if you don't want to do this!

 

Since Victoria managed to get from Watford to Buckby without falling apart I assumed that it was mostly OK, and after checking the usual parts of the hull to check it's soundness visually, I went for it.

 

The engine was well worn but still worked (hand started so can't be all that bad), and trusted the sellers version of what the last survey said (4 years old), and that he'd done the work needed. Trevor Whitling did the survey and he's very thorough.

 

Mike

[twbm]

and to add to that if you did want one surveyed is it 'specialist' surveyor you would employ - as in are the principles and techniques the same as surveying a modern boat?

 

(Accepting of course equivalent levels will be different obviously)

 

Fundamentally, yes. Hull thickness, gas fittings, if appropriate, fuel line condition etc etc. What you have to watch is surveyors who are not vintage boat savvy and insist on compliance with stuff that adversely affects the appearance of the the boat and the HBOC has already negotiated on, but don't notice the worn rivets on the chines. Fortunately Steve Priest from Brinklow Boats did spot them. He'd be the sort of chap it'd be worth paying to come and give an honest opinion, which in my experience he will.

[Hairy-Neil]

OK, so it wasn't in any way a historic boat or an historic engine,

 

Every Gardner is an historic engine. The factory might only have ceased production 15 years ago or so, but the engines they were making at the end, especially those suitable for narrowboats, were to an ancient design.

[twbm]

Just remember, that if you want an historic boat you may well have to folk out large amounts of money to keep it afloat. Don't buy it if you don't want to do this!

 

Since Victoria managed to get from Watford to Buckby without falling apart I assumed that it was mostly OK, and after checking the usual parts of the hull to check it's soundness visually, I went for it.

 

The engine was well worn but still worked (hand started so can't be all that bad), and trusted the sellers version of what the last survey said (4 years old), and that he'd done the work needed. Trevor Whitling did the survey and he's very thorough.

 

Mike

 

There wasn't much tread left on that tyre ....

[Laurence Hogg]

To add my thoughts to this.

Most surveyors used to modern day craft wont have much of a clue about "working boats" many have no experience at all. Do we all remember the surveyor who claimed a boat was too wide recently and caused a boat builder to go down? if you do, thats the sort of person who needs to be a million miles away from any older boat. Even the seasoned surveyors will cover themselves up to the hilt with warnings, reccomendations etc. I trust the old whopping sledge hammer and a good intuition of the type, plus a second or more pair of knowledgable eyese is worth having along. these beasts are all well past the sell by date, most having a designed life of 25-30 years and now proving that 3 and 4x that are possible (with care!). As for wooden craft, then even more intuition is needed, better pay someone like Carl than some "specced up" candidate straight out of theory school. Theres no question "working boats" and older craft need a fuller appreciation than modern stuff, anyone making the transcend would be well advised to get to know some of us around the system as they will learn more that way than any other way.

[carlt]

As for wooden craft, then even more intuition is needed, better pay someone like Carl than some "specced up" candidate straight out of theory school.

Whilst very flattered and always willing to go and prod any wooden boat, from a pram dinghy to a tall ship, I would never charge for the pleasure.

 

The down side is that you would have no come back, if it all went poo-shaped (not that there is much come back if a surveyor misses anything).

 

If I was to engage a surveyor to look at a wooden boat then there is only one (that I know of) that I would trust to do the job and that would be Trevor Whitling who owned and restored the wooden Peter Keay tug Progress.

 

I would rather pay a builder experienced with wooden boats to have a good look over her, such as Phil Trotter or Malcolm Webster, than a surveyor more used to playing with modern steel boats.

[johnthebridge]

Agree wholeheartedly with Chertsey.

My 88 year old Luxemotor lives in Ireland, on third party insurance supplied at a very attractive price by an English company. I have to have RYA membership (open to anyone, at about 40 quid a year) to obtain this price.

I look at this way:-previously, for fully comp. my former (English) insurance company wanted five times as much as for their third party premium, the excess was put at £750 (which probably meant that most "ordinary" claims wouldn't have been covered anyway), they wanted her out for a looksee every four years (meaning a full hull survey costing several hundred, plus a docking fee and a lot of inconvenience) and they required two extra crew to accompany me on any trip (although I suspect this may have only applied to barges, rather than narrowboats).

I did a simple monetary calculation that I could most likely get any necessary work done (minor damage, theft, loss etc.) for less than these costs, and it's proved to be the right decision, by far. Having said that, I'm not someone who worries about what might happen. At my age, life's just too short to care any more.

Somebody said to me once that he, "never had a survey done on an old boat, because I might find something I don't like", and I'm afraid that remains my policy.

[Guest]

 

If I was to engage a surveyor to look at a wooden boat then there is only one (that I know of) that I would trust to do the job and that would be Trevor Whitling who owned and restored the wooden Peter Keay tug Progress.

 

 

Nice chap too - he did our (none wooden clonecraft) survey - we were very happy.

[Chertsey]

I would rather pay a builder experienced with wooden boats to have a good look over her, such as Phil Trotter or Malcolm Webster, than a surveyor more used to playing with modern steel boats.

And I would likewise place far more trust in someone who's worked with and on (and loves) historic steel boats for years to look at one of them than someone doing a survey 'by the book'.

[Derek R.]

Interestingly, this brings to light a general distrust uncertainty amongst those who are enthusiasts of ex-working boats towards surveyors in general, and whose owners and prospective owners have gained some knowledge of their boats and their histories, in comparison to those who are attracted to boats in general, both modern and old (though with the emphasis on modern) who are more inclined to let a 'qualified expert' loose in their wallet and supply in return sheets of paper.

 

Both Laurence and Carl have summed it up and Sara endorses (me too) - if you are going for a survey, get someone who knows the boats from building/working on them on a regular basis. Makes sense to me.

[Chertsey]

Interestingly, this brings to light a general distrust uncertainty amongst those who are enthusiasts of ex-working boats towards surveyors in general, and whose owners and prospective owners have gained some knowledge of their boats and their histories, in comparison to those who are attracted to boats in general, both modern and old (though with the emphasis on modern) who are more inclined to let a 'qualified expert' loose in their wallet and supply in return sheets of paper.

 

Both Laurence and Carl have summed it up and Sara endorses (me too) - if you are going for a survey, get someone who knows the boats from building/working on them on a regular basis. Makes sense to me.

Mmm... The point I was making really was that I would rather have someone who knows old boats THAN a qualified surveyor (people who are both being very few and far between). And I would rather have friendly informal advice than reams of paper hedged around with caveats and get-out clauses.

[Derek R.]

Ah! Sorry Sara, I should have left "survey" out of the last line and inserted "an old boat". I misled.

[madcat]

Please recommend a surveyor who will do a hull survey in the midlands that will satisfy the insurance company .Boat is big northwich 1936 vintage.I used to go up to Manchester but retirement means finding a new surveyor.

[Paul H]

Please recommend a surveyor who will do a hull survey in the midlands that will satisfy the insurance company .Boat is big northwich 1936 vintage.I used to go up to Manchester but retirement means finding a new surveyor.

 

Paul Smith is your man. Brought up on FMC Laurel, worked with Malcolm Braine, sensible about old boats and thoroughly nice guy.

 

website

 

Paul

Edited May 12, 2011 by Paul H

[marcus]

Please recommend a surveyor who will do a hull survey in the midlands that will satisfy the insurance company .Boat is big northwich 1936 vintage.I used to go up to Manchester but retirement means finding a new surveyor.

Mike Carter – www.marinesurveysltd.co.uk

He was brought up on a royalty pair and owns his own big Northwich, he is used a lot by historic narrowboat owners including the museums.