Pre-purchase surveys on historic boats

[Chertsey]

Just curious. I didn't, and I suspect many others likewise. It's a bit of a different scenario from buying a newish used boat. Prospective purchasers are perhaps more likely to have the experience (or the contacts) to check a boat out for themselves. It may be taken as read that the boat needs work - why waste money to be told what you already know? It might be a case of having to have it regardless, because it is rare, or you have wanted one for twenty years, so, again why waste the money on info you won't act on? It might be a case of having to act fast and knowing there are other prospective purchasers who won't be so fussy.

 

There might be reasons to have a survey as well of course - I'll leave others to fill those in. Genuinely interested to see what the proportions are.

[twbm]

Last years compulsory four yearly insurance survey on Nuneaton revealed wear on the chines under the engine room that wouldn't necessarily have been pick up otherwise and would probably have sunk her on the coal run. Point being I think owners of old deepish drafted boats should know what hull thickness they're working with and what condition the rivets are in so they can plan repairs etc. We had the rest of the rear end chines done this year so are happy we're probably OK for another 5 years, but if the insurance company want us to prove it before then, we'll have her out of the water again. No point spending weeks/months/years making 'em look pretty then have them sink.

[Chertsey]

Last years compulsory four yearly insurance survey on Nuneaton revealed wear on the chines under the engine room that wouldn't necessarily have been pick up otherwise and would probably have sunk her on the coal run. Point being I think owners of old deepish drafted boats should know what hull thickness they're working with and what condition the rivets are in so they can plan repairs etc. We had the rest of the rear end chines done this year so are happy we're probably OK for another 5 years, but if the insurance company want us to prove it before then, we'll have her out of the water again. No point spending weeks/months/years making 'em look pretty then have them sink.

Granted, but a. Do you need/want to know this before you buy it, and b. Do you need a surveyor to tell you?

First thing I did after buying Chertsey was get it out of the water and have a thorough inspection - chines and bottom plate inter alia needed attention - but I'd have been surprised if they hadn't.

[twbm]

With you now, yes, it's not the same rationale as when purchasing a newer boat, and anyone who has a good reputation for fixing them can give you an honest opinion re what needs doing.

[Tim Lewis]

Just curious. I didn't, and I suspect many others likewise. It's a bit of a different scenario from buying a newish used boat. Prospective purchasers are perhaps more likely to have the experience (or the contacts) to check a boat out for themselves. It may be taken as read that the boat needs work - why waste money to be told what you already know? It might be a case of having to have it regardless, because it is rare, or you have wanted one for twenty years, so, again why waste the money on info you won't act on? It might be a case of having to act fast and knowing there are other prospective purchasers who won't be so fussy.

 

There might be reasons to have a survey as well of course - I'll leave others to fill those in. Genuinely interested to see what the proportions are.

 

When we bought Fulbourne the then owner gave us a copy of a survey he had had done by, I believe, Malcolm Braine. Scrawled across the top of the survey was 'This will frighten you to death'

 

Tim

[carlt]

I voted no but I have always taken an experienced friend along, to try and talk me out of it, and likewise, they drag me along, too.

 

I am currently looking for another boat and have a list of about 10, to look at.

 

I'll go to look at them all but I already know which one I will have, if it is still for sale when I'm ready to buy.

 

When we bought Fulbourne the then owner gave us a copy of a survey he had had done by, I believe, Malcolm Braine. Scrawled across the top of the survey was 'This will frighten you to death'

 

Tim

When I bought Taplow it came with a condemnation notice, signed by Malcolm Braine.

 

She's still floating and boating, Malc! (middle finger smiley)

[alan_fincher]

I voted no but I have always taken an experienced friend along, to try and talk me out of it, and likewise, they drag me along, too.

We have been trying to be sensible, and seek advice from others who have experience, (in some cases lots), of purchase of old boats.

 

However, it quickly became apparent as I started getting answers in from them, that using only people who had made fairly brave decisions about what they themselves had already taken on, we are not going to get many "no, don't do it!", answers.

 

A good strategy, because questions like "isn't that a bit excessive ?", have always been answered with "no, it doesn't sound that way at all, to me!..."

 

(The "guilty" parties, you know who you are, if you read this!......)

 

My only regret is that a certain forum member badly seems to want to act as "matchmaker" between old boats and new owners, and that the one she fancied marrying us off to didn't work out for us. Keep trying, you'll "partner someone up" eventually!...

 

Barring disasters, expect public announcement soon!

Edited May 9, 2011 by alan_fincher

[Chertsey]

We have been trying to be sensible, and seek advice from others who have experience, (in some cases lots), of purchase of old boats.

 

However, it quickly became apparent as I started getting answers in from them, that using only people who had made fairly brave decisions about what they themselves had already taken on, we are not going to get many "no, don't do it!", answers.

 

A good strategy, because questions like "isn't that a bit excessive ?", have always been answered with "no, it doesn't sound that way at all, to me!..."

 

(The "guilty" parties, you know who you are, if you read this!......)

 

My only regret is that a certain forum member badly seems to want to act as "matchmaker" between old boats and new owners, and that the one she fancied marrying us off to didn't work out for us. Keep trying, you'll "partner someone up" eventually!...

 

Barring disasters, expect public announcement soon!

Nah, no regrets... I just want all my friends to have a nice old boat!

[FadeToScarlet]

Nah, no regrets... I just want all my friends to have a nice old boat!

 

Matchmaker matchmaker make me a match.... I'm interested to see if your ideas for what I need match mine!

 

In terms of relevance I think I'd ask someone knowledgeable to do a survey- Roger Fuller, say- but we might just have to be brave and move quickly!

[alan_fincher]

So just one more to get to double figures for "didn't bother to survey".....

 

Can we get there before one single person says "yes I did" ?

 

(Suspect I have just buggered the poll, as several non-historic boat owners will now vote "yes" to derail this!)

 

I must say 9:0 for "No", (so far!) is not what I might have guessed, if genuine.

 

Clearly all historic boat owners are either surveyors, stinking rich, or just plain daft! (Some may even be all three, I suppose...)

[Liam]

I have just voted.

 

And for the record I am neither a surveyor or stinking rich

[alan_fincher]

I have just voted.

 

And for the record I am neither a surveyor or stinking rich

Ta! Da!

 

(I note you only ruled out two of the three possibilities!)

[Liam]

Well noted

[Derek R.]

I have seen a survey of my boat as done for a previous prospective owner, and confess there are several errors in the description.

I have also seen a copy of a survey commissioned by a prospective owner of one of my previous boats, and having been present during said survey, was surprised at the content and description as it contradicted some of what had occurred.

 

Surveys are full of caveats to protect the surveyor, similarly, the Boat Safety Certificate is valid for one day only - just the same as any M.O.T. certificate is for a vehicle. They may be valid as a form of check, and maybe necessary to comply with regulations, but what happens in the interim period between examinations is left uncovered.

 

You may find out things about your prospective vessel through a survey, but will it really be so?

 

Ultimately, one would need to watch one's own boat built from scratch to truly know what its condition is. Other than that, we are subject to our own knowledge, experience, wits, gut feeling, how much we can afford, or how much we trust the surveyor.

[Mrs Humdinger]

Am not sure we'd be able to manage an old boat, but I have to admit, it does have a certain appeal. If you wanted an old boat, where do you find them? Not that I've really looked, but I don't recall ever seeing any advertised for sale. Is there a special secret old boat website?

[carlt]

Is there a special secret old boat website?

No but all prospective owners are subject to a full survey and stringent interview process, to ensure their suitability.

 

Anybody who fails the process is automatically offered a wooden boat, as punishment compensation.

[Guest]

Am not sure we'd be able to manage an old boat, but I have to admit, it does have a certain appeal. If you wanted an old boat, where do you find them? Not that I've really looked, but I don't recall ever seeing any advertised for sale. Is there a special secret old boat website?

 

and to add to that if you did want one surveyed is it 'specialist' surveyor you would employ - as in are the principles and techniques the same as surveying a modern boat?

 

(Accepting of course equivalent levels will be different obviously)

[Chertsey]

I think I would go so far as to venture to say that if you're the sort of person who'd insist on a survey before buying, then you're possibly not the sort of person to be buying an old boat. Old boats are not conducive to happiness for people who worry too much, who are bothered by the prospect of extensive repairs, or who are interested in value for money!

[Guest]

I think I would go so far as to venture to say that if you're the sort of person who'd insist on a survey before buying, then you're possibly not the sort of person to be buying an old boat. Old boats are not conducive to happiness for people who worry too much, who are bothered by the prospect of extensive repairs, or who are interested in value for money!

 

I concur with that as it happens - but was curious that's all.

[Chertsey]

and to add to that if you did want one surveyed is it 'specialist' surveyor you would employ - as in are the principles and techniques the same as surveying a modern boat?

 

(Accepting of course equivalent levels will be different obviously)

Well, as I've said, I didn't have a survey, and didn't see the boat out of the water - but I did take a friendly expert (boatbuilder/restorer) with me to the first viewing, and his opinion was very helpful (I wonder if I would have taken so much notice if he'd said no, don't buy it...) This is a different kettle of fish however to the delay involved in getting the boat out of the water for an official survey.

 

Stories of surveyors and BSS examiners who simply don't understand the needs and vagaries of old boats are legion.

 

Equivalent levels of what btw?

Edited May 10, 2011 by Chertsey

[Guest]

Equivalent levels of what btw?

 

Daft typo. I meant - equipment levels....

[alan_fincher]

Old boats are not conducive to happiness for people who worry too much, who are bothered by the prospect of extensive repairs, or who are interested in value for money!

Bugger! Really ?

 

I (genuinely) have always been one of life's natural worriers.

 

I will let you know in a few months if I'm currently in the process of making one of life's big mistakes !

 

Being serious, though, there can be a very different slant on things.....

 

I can't remember what I have said on the forum but for around 20 years now one of my closest friends has been a former school class mate, who I didn't know well at school, but who I re hooked up with when we were all circa 40, and who has been an enormous supporter to me at a difficult patch in my life a few years ago.

 

Just over a week ago, I heard he had a massive coronary on the Saturday, didn't regain conciousness, and was dead about a day later. Coming after several not dissimilar happenings over quite a short while, it has shaken both I and Cath to the core.

 

Increasingly I start to wonder if my usual uber-cautious approach to life is a total mistake. If you don't sometimes take and seize an opportunity now, perhaps with an element of risk, (and even some overspend!), you may never get the chance to realise an ambition.

 

(Sorry! - lecture about life's philosophies now ends!).

 

I still couldn't possibly recommend any narrow boat buyer not to have a survey though!

 

EDITED TO ADD:

 

Bloomin 'eck - now standing at 12:0 for no:yes! I really would never have predicted that!

Edited May 10, 2011 by alan_fincher

[Derek R.]

Am not sure we'd be able to manage an old boat, but I have to admit, it does have a certain appeal. If you wanted an old boat, where do you find them? Not that I've really looked, but I don't recall ever seeing any advertised for sale. Is there a special secret old boat website?

 

As Carl says, there's no secret and no specific website for sales as such. There are several yards up and down the country that specialise in ex-working boats, their preservation and repair, and general knowledge of the cut and its history will be all that is needed to discover them. The Fuller's; Brinklow Boats; Stockton Dry Dock - and more, and many that don't have websites.

 

One clue is in becoming familiar with the boats names. All the ex-working boats are well documented in many books, and scanning the general boat sales columns in the various publications will find them out.

 

For general information there's the Historic Narrow Boat Owners Club. Events listed, and plenty of opportunities to meet and chat. Old boats, like old steam loco's, traction engines and vintage cars, are a lifestyle, but expensive. Love it and live it, or best left alone and maybe just watched. Sensible people will watch and admire/criticise, but then along comes an emotion . . . an interest . . then a longing. "We're doomed Mrs. Humdinger - doomed!"

[Guest]

Bugger! Really ?

 

I (genuinely) have always been one of life's natural worriers.

 

 

It used to be my sig. on here - but one of Jan's colleagues use to have a saying-

 

'Life Isn't a rehearsal' -

 

 

 

Just do it - worst that can happen is it will bankrupt you, or of course you could just sell it if it's not for you/costing too much, they sound as is they are in some demand.

[alan_fincher]

Being new to this, I have been quite surprised to learn just the little I think I still know about "old boats" changing hands.

 

It seems very little gets openly advertised - quite the opposite in fact, and if for example there are 4 or 5 working boats on "the Duck", that isn't really the pool of boats potentially for sale.

 

People know people, who know people.

 

It's all a bit frustrating.

 

Having thought we had rather specific requirements about what we might like to own, I came to the conclusion that things that came close to a match to our requirement were a very rare beast.

 

We are well advanced with a "plan B", not at all how we started out, and I'm relaxed about what we are going for.

 

But, within a short space of committing I have been tipped off to two boats, both "possibly for sale - not sure" - one of them actually motoring past, as we were trying to finalise a deal on our "plan B".

 

It would possibly be better if there was an authoritative list of boats that the owners might sell to the right people, but that's not how it works, it seems.

 

(On the other hand, I'm aware of at least 4 full length working boats currently advertised at normal brokerage sites, although two are butties, and one is "Dover"!)