Little Woolwich Gemini

[MtB]

I've always had a long term desire to own a historic boat, and as I educate myself with a view to achieving that goal I keep a weather eye open for historic boats on the market. The little Woolwich (or should that be small Woolwich, or doesn't it matter?) Gemini seems to match my requirements very well, as I see them at the moment.

 

Reading the apolloduck listing (http://narrowboats.apolloduck.co.uk/display.phtml?aid=160250) and looking at the photo I gather Gemini has a steel cabin conversion and the elm bottom has been replaced with steel. The back cabin doesn't look original to my eye though, and looks like a new one to me. Also has a Lister JP3 that is not the original engine.

 

Does anyone here know more about Gemini? Like why it still hasn't sold, as the price looks fair for a boat of this nature.

 

Maybe everyone ends up thinking the same as I am this morning, that with a new top, a new bottom, and a different engine, there is possibly not actually a great deal of historic boat still left here. Just the hull sides with everything else having been replaced. Possibly a less extreme example of the 'Dover' effect! Any thoughts, anyone?

 

There seems to be very little about Gemini on the net. There may be a page about Gemini on HNBOC but it says I am not authorised to view it. I wonder if this is because I am not a member. I'll think I'll join anyway.

 

Is Adrian (Gemini's vendor) a forum member here?

 

Mike

 

 

(Edited to correct some grammar and spelling errors.)

Edited March 20, 2011 by Mike the Boilerman

[M.t Major]

I've always had a long term desire to own a historic boat, and as I educate myself with a view to achieving that goal I keep a weather eye open for historic boats on the market. The little Woolwich (or should that be small Woolwich, or doesn't it matter?) Gemini seems to match my requirements as I see them at the moment, very well.

 

Reading the apolloduck listing (http://narrowboats.apolloduck.co.uk/display.phtml?aid=160250) and looking at the photo I gather Gemini has a steel cabin conversion and the elm bottom has been replaced with steel. The back cabin doesn't look original to my eye though, and looks like a new one to me. Also has a Lister JP3 that is not the original engine.

 

Does anyone here know more about Gemini? Like why it still hasn't sold, as the price looks fair for a boat of this nature.

 

Maybe everyone ends up thinking the same a I am thinking this morning, that with a new top, a new bottom, and a different engine, there is possibly not actually a great deal of historic boat still left here. Just the hull sides with everything else having been replaced. Possibly a less extreme example of the 'Dover' effect! Any thoughts, anyone?

 

There seems to be very little about Gemini on the net. There may be a page about Gemini on HNBOC but it says I am not authorised to view it. I wonder if this is because I am not a member. I'll think I'll join anyway.

 

Is Adrian (Gemin's vendor) a forum member here?

 

Mike

 

well i think is a bit to much money !!

[Chris Pink]

well i think is a bit to much money !!

 

A lot too much

 

...and if you are going to ask that much is it too much to ask to make a bit of effort with the photos. If the owner is this slapdash then beware.

[zenataomm]

If you are concerned about the historical accuracy, why are you prepared to accept a converted boat?

[MtB]

If you are concerned about the historical accuracy, why are you prepared to accept a converted boat?

 

Good question!

 

I'm not sure I am too concerned about historical accuracy. The quick answer is I'd like a historic boat but I don't like the idea of living on an unconverted one.

 

Maybe a big Woolwich converted under cloths would be a better bet.

 

I'm also very much taken with the wooden motor "Ian". Looks a bargain to me also, at half the price of Gemini. But no doubt plenty will say £30k for a wooden NB is also havin' a laugh :-)

 

 

http://www.wfbco.co.uk/narrowboats_for_sale/Ian

 

Mike

[Derek R.]

The owner of GEMINI is not listed as being a member of HNBOC, nor is there any information about the boat on the website, other than it was paired at one time with ARGUS.

Another site worth a look, but no GEMINI: http://www.canalnarrowboats.com/HISTORIC%20BOATS%20NEW.HTM

Matt's site: http://www.workingboats.org.uk/Boats/Boats.aspx?Boat=237 Looks smart, but disgraced by the fenders.

AM Models: http://www.ammodels.co.nr/ Mentions 'slightly shortened'. Haven't a clue!

[pete harrison]

I gather Gemini has a steel cabin conversion and the elm bottom has been replaced with steel. The back cabin doesn't look original to my eye though, and looks like a new one to me. Also has a Lister JP3 that is not the original engine.

 

Does anyone here know more about Gemini? Like why it still hasn't sold, as the price looks fair for a boat of this nature.

 

Maybe everyone ends up thinking the same as I am this morning, that with a new top, a new bottom, and a different engine, there is possibly not actually a great deal of historic boat still left here. Just the hull sides with everything else having been replaced. Possibly a less extreme example of the 'Dover' effect! Any thoughts, anyone?

 

Mike

 

 

The vast majority of G.U.C.C.Co. Ltd. narrow boats passed into the ownership of 'British Waterways' in 1948. 'British Waterways' continued to work most of these boats hard, but generally maintained them pretty well. 'British Waterways' rebottommed and refooted most of the former G.U.C.C.Co. Ltd. narrow boats during the mid 1950's, rebuilding / replacing cabins as required and finally replacing most of the National 2DM's with air cooled Petter PD2's and Parson Merganser's between 1957 and 1962. They even rebottomed at least one Small Woolwich composite motor with riveted steel as an experiment.

 

Since then most of these boats have passed to leisure use of one sort or another, and the hull / cabin / engine work carried out by 'British Waterways' has become life expired. This is where boats like GEMINI have become pleasure boats with full length steel cabin conversions and less historically relevant engines (GEMINI is fitted with a 1967 Lister JS3 - not a JP3). This is partly due to the owners lack of knowledge and partly to what was available (or "the done thing") at the time of conversion. There are now very few boats remaining with wooden back cabins, let alone wooden bottoms, and the current trend seems to be for over restored shiny 'historic' boats where much of the original character and detail has been removed.

 

It is my opinion that to purchase a boat like GEMINI is simply a matter of personal taste, and whether you feel its price is right. All 'historic' narrow boats, both converted and unconverted have now been subjected to major rebuilds where large parts of the original boat (hull / cabin / engine) have been replaced - leaving the boats historical value mainly in its name.

Edited March 20, 2011 by pete harrison

[Paul H]

Gemini whilst a maintenance boat at Bulls Bridge in the 70s was actually cut in two - with the major part becoming a hopper and the cabin/engine room part forming a pusher tug. The experiment was not apparantly successful as it was difficult to get the two parts to "mate" properly together partticularly when allowance had to be made for the hopper being empty orloaded and therefore of differing height.. When the boat was put back together by an enthusiast it has been suggested that it became perhaps a little wider than it should be (but a lot of small woolwiches are a bit fat in any case) and perhaps this is also why it is "slightly shortened."

 

To my mind. provided there are no nasty surprises, the boat looks good value but I wouldn't personally be happy with the shape of the back cabin.

 

The main reason the boat hasn't sold is I suspect because it has been so poorly advertised.

 

Paul

[Hairy-Neil]

Gemini whilst a maintenance boat at Bulls Bridge in the 70s was actually cut in two .... When the boat was put back together by an enthusiast it has been suggested that it became perhaps a little wider than it should be (but a lot of small woolwiches are a bit fat in any case) and perhaps this is also why it is "slightly shortened."

 

In light of this I'd say it was poorly described as....

 

possibly one of the most original star class hulls around today

 

'Corona' gets my vote on the most original star class Woolwich hull

[pete harrison]

'Corona' gets my vote on the most original star class Woolwich hull

 

Although CORONA is a very desirable Small Woolwich motor I would put MERCURY ahead as far as originality is concerned, after all it retains its composite hull (or it did the last time I spoke to its owner). Although not a part of the hull MERCURY also retains a wooden back cabin and a National 2DM ! I think I would then place PHOBOS a close second (I am sure PHOBOS is still composite, has a wooden back cabin and a National 2DM, but I am happy to be corrected).

[Chertsey]

Anyone who is interested in old boats should join HNBOC!

Says their newly appointed press officer.

[Skeggy]

 

Although CORONA is a very desirable Small Woolwich motor I would put MERCURY ahead as far as originality is concerned, after all it retains its composite hull (or it did the last time I spoke to its owner). Although not a part of the hull MERCURY also retains a wooden back cabin and a National 2DM ! I think I would then place PHOBOS a close second (I am sure PHOBOS is still composite, has a wooden back cabin and a National 2DM, but I am happy to be corrected).

Hi Pete
Phobos has a steel bottom (Simon Wain) and steel back cabin. I do not know who put this on. The conversion is the wooden one put on in the seventies when she was used as a 'hotel'
boat. The National was replaced with an RN which is still going strong.

[Timleech]

Hi Pete

Phobos has a steel bottom (Simon Wain) and steel back cabin. I do not know who put this on. The conversion is the wooden one put on in the seventies when she was used as a 'hotel'

boat. The National was replaced with an RN which is still going strong.

 

Judd

 

ALCOR still has a wooden bottom (some new boards just fitted here) and a National, though a steel back cabin and part-conversion.

 

 

Tim

[Hairy-Neil]

Although CORONA is a very desirable Small Woolwich motor I would put MERCURY ahead as far as originality is concerned, after all it retains its composite hull (or it did the last time I spoke to its owner). Although not a part of the hull MERCURY also retains a wooden back cabin and a National 2DM ! I think I would then place PHOBOS a close second (I am sure PHOBOS is still composite, has a wooden back cabin and a National 2DM, but I am happy to be corrected).

 

I thought we were talking hull condition.... Besides, both of those you mention have full conversions.

[Laurence Hogg]

Looks good value for money if all things are correct and as described. Cabin shape is not correct but one could live with that. As a conversion surely this represents the evolution of the craft from working boat through maintenance, being cut, then rstored for current usage. Of the BW maintenance boats recently sold, some in working condition, how many will be restored as over shiny looking representations of what their owners think they may have looked like? Sadly these boats are the final working guise of the "commercial career" they were part of. It seems that we may oneday regret destroying the history these boats have created. Thumbs up to the owners of Renton for keeping that with its "space age" cabin and Mike Turpin for keeping a light blue livery alive with Radiant".

[Derek R.]

I wonder if the Parrotts's have still got that beautiful BW cabin they took off SICKLE? Looks like they might have a prospective buyer.

 

[Hairy-Neil]

I wonder if the Parrotts's have still got that beautiful BW cabin they took off SICKLE? Looks like they might have a prospective buyer.

 

 

The BW back cabin from Saltaire was rescued from the scrap heap and became the engine room on a 'replica' inspection launch Pete Newman built at Langley Mill dock.

[alan_fincher]

Of the BW maintenance boats recently sold, some in working condition, how many will be restored as over shiny looking representations of what their owners think they may have looked like? Sadly these boats are the final working guise of the "commercial career" they were part of. It seems that we may oneday regret destroying the history these boats have created. Thumbs up to the owners of Renton for keeping that with its "space age" cabin and Mike Turpin for keeping a light blue livery alive with Radiant".

So would you keep all ex-working boats that have to some degree or greater been butchered by BW in a faithful copy of the way they were on disposal, Laurence ?

 

Keep the remains of Aynho as a floating sanitary station, because that represents the final phase of it's working career, for instance ?

 

I'm not sure what the answer is, but I would far sooner see Sickle as it is now, than the final state that BW had managed to bastardise it to.

 

Another cracking little tug is Sudbury - ironically probably the only motor from the second batch of Wendover boats that BW kept, and probably the only one to get cut. Chatting to it's current owner, he says many of the BW features will be left in place, as they do represent part of it's later history. But it has been returned to a more conventional engine room and back cabin. So it represents now something the boat never was in it's working life. Personally I don't have a problem - it has made a nice boat from the BW mess-up.

 

Difficult one, in my view, but I think I'd rather see someone try and recreate something reasonable out of Aynho, Carnaby, etc, rather than deliberately leaving them in their final BW bastardised state.

[mykaskin]

I think there is some heritage value in leaving some boats in "BW" condition, though I realise that they were converted for a particular role that is not necessarily useful for pleasure use.

 

Ling is a good example, but if I were owner I would still rearrange the engineroom and "living space".

 

 

Problem is, everybody thinks its just a BW workboat and treats as such, climbing over them, bashing into them etc... just ask Badsey!

 

Cheers,

 

Mike

[pete harrison]

Hi Pete

Phobos has a steel bottom (Simon Wain) and steel back cabin. I do not know who put this on. The conversion is the wooden one put on in the seventies when she was used as a 'hotel'

boat. The National was replaced with an RN which is still going strong.

 

Judd

 

I am obviously living too far back in the past ! I shall cross PHOBOS off the originality list then.

 

edit 22/03/2011 11:06:- I have just looked at my records again and see that PHOBOS was at Brinklow in 2007 - perhaps that is when it got its steel bottom / Russell Newbery (my records suggest the National was still fitted in 2001)

 

I thought we were talking hull condition.... Besides, both of those you mention have full conversions.

 

I am talking hull condition / originality. The other details were an aside and cabin conversions really do not matter much to me.

Edited March 22, 2011 by pete harrison

[Speedwheel]

It seems that we may oneday regret destroying the history these boats have created.

 

You mean such as removing the bollards/dollies from Tucana/Zodiac?

 

The horrible dollies might go though as they impracticable to work with.

Edited March 25, 2011 by Speedwheel

[sueb]

When I knew Gemini it was owned by someone who bestowed love and money on her. A really lovely boat but as someone has said 7ft wide.

Sue

[alan_fincher]

I may be out of touch, but had not actually heard until today that Gemini has sold.

 

It has been in the hands of it's new owner a few months, apparently.

 

I was talking with him today.

 

He says it will need considerable steelwork done quite soon, so perhpas that is the reason it remained unsold for quite a while ?