Paddle gear types - a question

[magpie patrick]

In my capacity as a Heritage Lottery Fund monitor, I'm currently trying to get one applicant to understand why they can't just put bog-standard or even brand new design paddle gear in. The clue is in HERITAGE lottery fund. I've resisted Worcester and Birmingham type because that belongs on the Worcester and Birmingham and Droitwich Canals, however, I've been told it's used all over the place.

 

Now, I've cruised a lot of canals but I can't recall seeing this very distinctive gate paddle gear on any other waterways except possibly on the odd lock on the BCN. Does anyone else know of this?

 

I'm also of the view that "creep" of paddle gear from one waterway to another hasn't been that widespread, although on some canals the historic stuff has been replaced with standard modern gear, Leeds and Liverpool especially. Thoughts anyone?

[RLWP]

In my capacity as a Heritage Lottery Fund monitor, I'm currently trying to get one applicant to understand why they can't just put bog-standard or even brand new design paddle gear in. The clue is in HERITAGE lottery fund. I've resisted Worcester and Birmingham type because that belongs on the Worcester and Birmingham and Droitwich Canals, however, I've been told it's used all over the place.

 

Now, I've cruised a lot of canals but I can't recall seeing this very distinctive gate paddle gear on any other waterways except possibly on the odd lock on the BCN. Does anyone else know of this?

 

I'm also of the view that "creep" of paddle gear from one waterway to another hasn't been that widespread, although on some canals the historic stuff has been replaced with standard modern gear, Leeds and Liverpool especially. Thoughts anyone?

 

Pictures please Patrick?

 

Richard

[magpie patrick]

Pictures please Patrick?

 

Richard

 

A Worcester and Birmingham Gate Paddle

 

 

edited to add, they may be on the Southern Stratford, which for various murky reasons has a lot of paddle gear from different canals, most notably the Montgomery

Edited December 23, 2010 by magpie patrick

[Derek R.]

They are indeed all over the place on the Worcester & Birmingham, as are other types on other waterways.

 

No reflection on the OP, but it's a bit like asking the Austin 7 Mini owners, why don't they drive those new 'BMW' Mini's.

Ignorance is always remedied with a little education. If that doesn't work, smile and walk away.

 

Beautiful gear that.

[Pluto]

I wrote a report for BW in 2007 looking at what original drawings were available for lock gates, and this took in paddle gear. There were some late 19th century drawings for paddle gear, though only for railway owned canals where they had easy access to a drawing office. On other canals, paddle gear seems to have been produced by the local maintenance workshop to a specification known to the workers but rarely recorded. On the L&LC, the paddle gear varied from workshop to workshop - there were four on the canal. The only way to identify the various types is from old photos, which obviously means that the earliest paddle gear cannot be recorded. On a survey I did of the Rochdale canal paddle gear, I identified three distinct chronological types, besides those installed during the recent reconstruction. None of the earliest type survive. As far as I could establish. there were no top gate paddles on any canal prior to the mid-19th century, when they were introduced to speed up traffic to compete with railways.

[magpie patrick]

They are indeed all over the place on the Worcester & Birmingham, as are other types on other waterways.

 

No reflection on the OP, but it's a bit like asking the Austin 7 Mini owners, why don't they drive those new 'BMW' Mini's.

Ignorance is always remedied with a little education. If that doesn't work, smile and walk away.

 

Beautiful gear that.

 

I think you've slightly missed the point, I have argued against W&B paddles on another canal on the basis that it should be kept only for W&B/Droitwich (for which it was specified in the HLF grant). I am now being told it's use is widespread across the system and in my experience it is not. I'm asking is there something I don't know about, like is it being used on another canal I have not visited

 

I'm a complete paddle gear anorak I'm afraid, although I do realise that both modern safety requirements, and the need for locks to be operated by families rather than professionals who lift small buildings over their heads as training, means compromise is somethimes needed.

 

Pluto, while we're at it, have you any idea how L&L style scissor board gate paddles came to be used on Junction Lock on the Stroudwater Canal?

[Derek R.]

I don't think I missed your point Patrick. It appeared that someone had told you they were "all over the place" implying that they were all over the system, clearly this is not so, hence my tongue in cheek quip. The 'Mini' analogy was meant to show how silly it would be for an entire idiosynchratic and definitive to a Canal Companies paddle gear, to be replaced with something 'standardised' and fitted all over the place - shades of hydraulics - heaven forbid!

 

I didn't think it was you who were suggesting that such gear should be more widely used, hence my attempt to disassociate that comment from yourself.

 

That's probably as clear as mud now. I think.

 

Vive la difference.

Edited December 23, 2010 by Derek R.

[magpie patrick]

I think I get it, in your analogy, my client is the silly twit asking why I don't drive a BMW mini...

[Alan Saunders]

A Worcester and Birmingham Gate Paddle

 

 

edited to add, they may be on the Southern Stratford, which for various murky reasons has a lot of paddle gear from different canals, most notably the Montgomery

Likely I do not understand the question!

 

This gear can be seen on the K&A but, like the Stratford, it is a restoration so possibly not original. I guess the K&A probably holds the record for the most various paddle-gear solutions - each 'improvement' being inferior to its predecessor. I believe the K&A gear did not originally (pre-restoration) accept standard BW windlasses.

 

The economic priority must be restoration of the waterway for use by leisure boaters. One or two locks should be required to maintain the original gear. What is 'original', as it was originally built or as it was when it was abandoned? By the time a waterway was abandoned it is likely that many repairs had been made using redundant gear from other canals.

 

Imagine a flight of locks that preserved every known type of paddle gear, each with a notice crediting its origin; that would be Heritage!

 

Alan

(from the No. 9 Peckham Bus)

[ditchcrawler]

I don't think I missed your point Patrick. It appeared that someone had told you they were "all over the place" implying that they were all over the system, clearly this is not so, hence my tongue in cheek quip. The 'Mini' analogy was meant to show how silly it would be for an entire idiosynchratic and definitive to a Canal Companies paddle gear, to be replaced with something 'standardised' and fitted all over the place - shades of hydraulics - heaven forbid!

 

I didn't think it was you who were suggesting that such gear should be more widely used, hence my attempt to disassociate that comment from yourself.

 

That's probably as clear as mud now. I think.

 

Vive la difference.

Well you lost me

[alan_fincher]

The problem with the paddle gear on the W&B, if I recall, is not the gear itself, but the fact that BW have decided to replace wooden paddles in plastic, which distort because of the pressure of water on them.

 

Despite that gear obviously having a substantial reduction on it, I remember W&B paddles being relative bastards considering it's only got narrow canal sized paddles.

 

Maybe that was more the "grounds" though ?

 

Can't say I've seen a lot of that paddle gear other than on W&B, but then we've yet to do either Southern Stratford or K&A. (Do they really have that on the K&A ??).

 

I think it's good if they can keep to appropriate type for a canal, but have noticed quite a few places where it looks as if the standards from another canal have been imported to a canal (or river navigation), that didn't previously have them.

 

However, anything, absolutely anything is better than bloody hydraulic!

[Derek R.]

Well you lost me

 

Must be my recent exposure to political shenanigens.

 

I love to see different gear, and prefer original Mini's over the modern BMW effort. Though much prefer the Citroen 2cv, as well as proper half cab double deckers - crew operated. And roads not turned into physical and financial tank traps, and, and, and . . .

 

Be careful which pill you take.

[alan_fincher]

I love to see different gear, and prefer original Mini's over the modern BMW effort. Though much prefer the Citroen 2cv, as well as proper half cab double deckers - crew operated. And roads not turned into physical and financial tank traps, and, and, and . . .

 

Be careful which pill you take.

Nurse! NURSE!!

 

Derek has got out of bed again, nurse!

[Pluto]

 

Pluto, while we're at it, have you any idea how L&L style scissor board gate paddles came to be used on Junction Lock on the Stroudwater Canal?

I have been told that, as there was no money at the time (1960s) for new Stroudwater gates, old gates from the L&LC were refurbished for use on the junction lock. Similar scissor-type paddles were also used on the Rochdale according to contemporary drawings, though with the rack running on top of the balance beam instead of along the side. I would have thought it too vulnerable there, which may be why it did not survive long.

[twbm]

May we know what paddle gear is being proposed for where and what your preferences are? The ensuing debate should keep us going right through Christmas.

[Derek R.]

Nurse! NURSE!!

 

Derek has got out of bed again, nurse!

 

Oh it was YOU was it! Listen - The bed in the corner is MINE - 'Pole' position in the Ward! They'll mend your bones, but steal your mind.

 

You've been there too I see.

 

Nurse has let me show you this:

 

 

Rufford arm if I recall, 1983. Rack and pinion.

[Max Sinclair]

The original paddle gear on the Droitwich Barge Canal and the swing bridge frames were cast at the Dale Foundry Ironbridge ( Coalbrooke) several years before the Ironbridge was built. Unfortunately the foundries records have been lost as they would have provided valuable information about our early canals.When the Junction canal was designed in Gloucester the paddle gear was standardised with the Worcester Birmingham.Records should never be thrown away but for safety consigned to County Records Offices.

[the grinch]

we have a multitude of differing gear on the W&A, because likewise we aquired gates and paddles from other places 2nd hand.

since C.2000 we have brought new and these have been made for us by Hargreaves in Halifax.

what is traditional anyway? as can be shown by a boat having a colour scheme in private hands longer than it did in its original colours Baldock is a good example in having Foxton Boat livery longer than it ever carried a GUCCCo one.

[Biggles]

How about this one?

 

This is a lock about 100m up stream from the place John Constable painted the Haywain

 

Biggles

Edited December 24, 2010 by Biggles

[Speedwheel]

The original paddle gear on the Droitwich Barge Canal and the swing bridge frames were cast at the Dale Foundry Ironbridge ( Coalbrooke) several years before the Ironbridge was built. Unfortunately the foundries records have been lost as they would have provided valuable information about our early canals.When the Junction canal was designed in Gloucester the paddle gear was standardised with the Worcester Birmingham.Records should never be thrown away but for safety consigned to County Records Offices.

 

 

I'm sure you are already well aware but just incase, and for the info of others, the Ironbridge Institute (part of Birmingham University and Ironbridge Gorge Museum Trust) also have a huge number of records. Many relating to foundaries and quite a few relating to canals (The Rolt Collection!). The librarian/archivist (whos name escapes me at the moment - Edit John Powell) is very helpful and knows his stuff.

 

http://www.ironbridge.org.uk/about_us/library_and_archives/

Edited December 24, 2010 by Speedwheel

[Max Sinclair]

I'm sure you are already well aware but just incase, and for the info of others, the Ironbridge Institute (part of Birmingham University and Ironbridge Gorge Museum Trust) also have a huge number of records. Many relating to foundaries and quite a few relating to canals (The Rolt Collection!). The librarian/archivist (whos name escapes me at the moment - Edit John Powell) is very helpful and knows his stuff.

 

http://www.ironbridge.org.uk/about_us/library_and_archives/

It was John Powell who advised me Ironbridge do not have their early Foundry records.

There is a very early canal book in the Shropshire records office with fine engravings of lock gear.

[Max Sinclair]

It was John Powell who advised me Ironbridge do not have their early Foundry records.

There is a very early canal book in the Shropshire records office with fine engravings of lock gear.

We are fortunate at Droitwich to have a total detailed record of the accounts for building the canal from the purchase of a ball of twine, followed by a large ball of twine then a ball of Bedlam twine, presumably tar coated,to lay out the line of the canal.The accounts conclude with drinks for the workmen in 1771.Things were primitive, a man was sent to Newcastle for a level, possibly from one of Brindleys other projects.Ironwork was purchased from the Dale Foundry, presumably at Coalbrook and shipped down the Severn.A lot of water was pumped, no doubt because in those days the tide could rise and fall five feet at Lock One.

Edited February 17, 2011 by Max Sinclair

[Tiny]

In my capacity as a Heritage Lottery Fund monitor, I'm currently trying to get one applicant to understand why they can't just put bog-standard or even brand new design paddle gear in. The clue is in HERITAGE lottery fund. I've resisted Worcester and Birmingham type because that belongs on the Worcester and Birmingham and Droitwich Canals, however, I've been told it's used all over the place.

 

Now, I've cruised a lot of canals but I can't recall seeing this very distinctive gate paddle gear on any other waterways except possibly on the odd lock on the BCN. Does anyone else know of this?

 

I'm also of the view that "creep" of paddle gear from one waterway to another hasn't been that widespread, although on some canals the historic stuff has been replaced with standard modern gear, Leeds and Liverpool especially. Thoughts anyone?

 

Having been chugging round the system since the 1970s my view of changes to paddle gear is that it has changed and standerdised a lot. Back then you did notice differences between gear on different canals. For example there was a lot of finger crunching stuff with the safety bit of metal jammed into the works around. Likewise a lot of the gear on the Trent and Mersey (Heartbeak Hill), Tardebigge, The Birmingham and Fazeley at Curdworth and so on was very different as were individual flights in the BCN and parts of the Oxford like the Napton Flight. On the Stratford and Avon South David Hutchins had 'acquired' gear from all over the BCN and places where BW decided locks were redundent there wasa a wonderful selection of gates and gear which was cobbled together to make for a very interesting canal. At the same time lift bridges were often pulled up by chain or, in one glorious case on the Caldon operated by the crew stepping off a wall, hanging over the top bridge beam and floating down to ground level. (From the worn marks in the steps and on the wall this system was probably original with the canal.

 

But in the 70s and 80s BW began to first fit anything to hand and then to standardise as they needed to replace gates and paddles. One of the new types of paddle was the hydraulics that were much loved by BW management though a lot of customers and BW staff liked them not at all. At one point BW, not unlike their thirst for bollards, brought hundreds of these expensive things as they were 'much safer' and they popped up all over the place often looking a total eyesore. On the Napton flight they replaced the old unique gear and when there were complaints BW said the old patterns had been lost so the 'orrible hydraulics must be used. With the hydraulics in other places like the T&M (where maybe the hyraulics were not powerful enough Bw started fitting what you might call a BCN standardised looking gear that began to pop up all over the system in small numbers. A bit like British rail nationalised engines it looked OK but it lacked the individual personallity of the older more ornate stuff.

 

This takes us into the 1990s when a certain Sir Leslie took charge of BW. Sir Leslie performed a slight of hand of modernising BW - which was not necessarily a good thing as it lost the focus from canals first with management in London sitting in its Ivory Tower to the modern system of local managers who care little for the track but keep the bean counters happy. In among this lot Sir Leslie seems to have decided that the hydrulics were not the answer to everything and so they began to disappear from locks like those at Napton where (magically) old patten gear reappeared. But, as they disappeared from some locks they started sprouting on restored ones like those on the Rochdale and to be fitted to most lift bridges as BW had to find something to use them for.

[Tiny]

Bloody Java screwed me but I'm back!

 

From the 1990s hydraulics got replaced until on some canals one feel quite nostalgic for the odd one to be left. THe one at Debdale on the S&W gives the lock a bot of character as does the original top paddle gear on Wolverley Court lock.

 

When BW acquired the Straford on Avon canal the original hodge-podge of gear was replaced by more boring but not necessarily better gear and all over the system BW stardised spindles so (for example) the broad spindles (GU standard) are no longer used on the Aylesbury Arm.

 

I always remember the lock keeper (not the latest one but the one who used to be keeper before BW decided no keeper was needed, got rid of him, let yobs smash the house up for three years before BW decided to renovate and install - a lockkeeper as one was needed) telling me how a mate had seen some bloike disassembling his gear and when confronted the bloke was 'standardising gear' - the first the locky had heard of it. He was almost in tears at his loverly gear dumped in the grass. He stopped the bloke and phoned his manager who said yes the gear change was right and it was no business of the locky to interfer as they firm doing the changes were contracted direct to head office. Bws treatment of staff after Sir Leslie has always left a lot to be desired.

 

As for paddle gear and locks in general its a bit late to preserve things now but there are odd examples of the original still around though knowing BWs appreciation of history things like that lift bridge where you once climbed the (mostly still there) wall will continue to disappear while BW glory in the big stuff.

 

Still remembering the old fair makes you nostalgic and I never got to the L&L swing bridges like one (now massively hydraulic) where we once trapped a car that was not going to wait as the bridge swang. As we jumped out of his way he somehow got through the narrowing gap and ended up just stopping before he came off the (now swung) bridge into the cut. At which point he wound his windows up and glared at us.

 

Now the Land L is a doddle with easy bridges, lift bridges are boring hydraulic and not interesting 'hang on chain or other' but BW try to make most locks not perfect by not oiling them and not fitting gates properly.

 

Edited February 18, 2011 by Tiny