BW auction - did you see the end price??

[sueb]

I completely agree. I seem to have forgotten the name at present but I am sure others know :-)))

Sue

[Gibbo]

Totally agree. If I may take it further though, as you collect more data(auctions) over time, you can start to find trends and analyse the results, so would you still hold that p.o.v when you have 1,000 or 2,000 or more? At what point does you statement reverse and those ignoring the data become 'rather thick'? It seems to work pretty well for house prices. Would you say 2 (you now have a comparison)? 5(over 100% against your last comparison of 2)? 100? I'd be interested to know, just as a conclusion to your point.

 

So, despite saying you agree, you do actually believe that auctioning sets the market price?

 

Does that mean BW will be reducing the mooring fees for those nearby ones that didn't sell?

 

No, I thought not. So it only sets the market price if that results in an increase?

 

Quite funny really.

[sueb]

I've watched the moorings at Reading, which BW can't let at all. These moorings always used to be full but are now empty. They are the only BW moorings in Reading. Why are they empty? A high price and no facilities. A water tap is essential here.

Sue

[Lady Muck]

The reason the waiting list didn't work is because it was run in an unfair, incompetent and nepotistic manner. Scaring people into paying over the odds is not the answer.

 

I don't know how you can ever police it to stop any funny business, though. What makes you think that the same practises aren't going on now we have a different system?

 

There would be less fiddling going on if Bw would at least let moorings out at a fair price and not hang onto dozens of empty ones for months, releasing them one-by-one.

[RLWP]

Totally agree. If I may take it further though, as you collect more data(auctions) over time, you can start to find trends and analyse the results, so would you still hold that p.o.v when you have 1,000 or 2,000 or more? At what point does you statement reverse and those ignoring the data become 'rather thick'? It seems to work pretty well for house prices. Would you say 2 (you now have a comparison)? 5(over 100% against your last comparison of 2)? 100? I'd be interested to know, just as a conclusion to your point.

 

Paul

 

 

What Paul is not saying is that in the first half of this year less than 20% of moorings auctioned sold. (The actual figure from January - June 2010 inclusive is 19.77%).

 

<snip>

 

Having spent a significant amount of money (perhaps Paul will tell us how much) on the basis of establishing the market rate for moorings, all that they have established is that the auction system leaving 80% of vacant berths unsold.

 

I guess BW are very much in face saving mode.

 

OK, I'm uncomfortable enough now to speak up.

 

Hi Paul, can I ask in what capacity you post here. Paul the canal enthusiast, Paul the developer (which is what your profile says), Paul the BW employee, Paul the BW spokesman. To give a reason for me asking this, for anything other than BW spokesman Allan's reply could be inappropriate.

 

If you are here as a BW spokesman, could you amend your profile and signature to reflect this please?

 

Richard

[Chris Pink]

I don't know how you can ever police it to stop any funny business, though. What makes you think that the same practises aren't going on now we have a different system?

 

There would be less fiddling going on if Bw would at least let moorings out at a fair price and not hang onto dozens of empty ones for months, releasing them one-by-one.

 

There is a system for allocating moorings on the Cam in Cambridge, where once registered for the waiting list you can look up where you are on the list, even get an impression of how long it will take.

 

The issue I had with the BW waiting list on the Kennet and Avon before was that even though I had asked to be on the waiting list, new boaters were allocated moorings ahead of me (and not just me). Our distinct impression was that preference was given to those who hadn't owned a boat before.

 

Why this should be is a complete mystery. Possibly originating from the same mindset that says boaters can't get jobs in BW. And, of course, because these are sneaky transactions, it's impossible to enforce accountability - these were the days before FOI.

[paulmorgan]

What Paul is not saying is that in the first half of this year less than 20% of moorings auctioned sold. (The actual figure from January - June 2010 inclusive is 19.77%).

Not sure if this was meant as a jibe or not, but you're quite right that I'm not saying that, not least because I do not deal with analysing the figures or making the business decisions! I'm not an BW omnibot

 

If,as BW has claimed, the process of offering BW vacancies to the highest bidder is about establishing market rates for moorings, there seems to be a strong case that many are now over-priced. Will BW be reducing charges for 2010/11 based on this data? Will BW reduce or scrap reserve prices? Will BW scrap the moorings auction system?

As I said above, I don't make those sort of decisions, not involved, so I can't answer that, sorry. However, I think you cannot escape the fact that if something costs more to maintain than you receive for it, then it would not be economical to rent / sell / lease at a price below that cost?

 

Empty berths mean lost income. BW will make up the lost income by raising prices for existing berth holders.

 

It will? Why not get rid of those berths which are not wanted anymore, so you reduce costs that way? That's one other solution. You seem to assume that the number of berths will remain static, but if less people are buying then you could remove those berths and therefore the cost of maintaining them. So that's one solution, I'm sure there are plenty of others that could be applied. Who knows what they will do.

 

 

Here is what Robin Evans said regarding moorings auctions in July 2009 -

 

We aim to launch the new service by the end of July. In the meantime, tendering activity is showing signs of market softening: during June, the percentage of vacancies sold above the guide price has dropped below 40% for the first time since the launch of the system in 2007, and 35% of vacancies remained on the market. We believe that some people may be holding off bidding in anticipation of the launch of the open auction system.

 

Having spent a significant amount of money (perhaps Paul will tell us how much) on the basis of establishing the market rate for moorings, all that they have established is that the auction system leaving 80% of vacant berths unsold.

Again, I don't have those figures, have you tried either asking via the mooring vacancies email or even submitting an FOIA. Didn't you or someone else from the press make a request similar to BW about this around a year ago? I'm sure I heard about something similar, of course I may be wrong on this.

 

I guess BW are very much in face saving mode.

I'm just interested in getting a technical conclusion to this.

 

Atb,

Paul

[magpie patrick]

However, I think you cannot escape the fact that if something costs more to maintain than you receive for it, then it would not be economical to rent / sell / lease at a price below that cost?

 

 

Not necessarily, BW provide two basic products, use of the waterways and somewhere to moor. By their own terms and conditions you aren't allowed the first unless you have the second (leaving CC aside) Thus, if someone decided not to buy a boat/move to EA waters BW not only forgo the mooring revenue but the licence revenue as well.

 

It's a bit like oil companies moaning that petrol stations don't make money. They may well not but if they don't have them they don't sell any oil.

[paulmorgan]

With the prices we pay in London I very much doubt it. My mooring goes up by at least £300 a year, always way, way over the rate of inflation and is now £3300.

 

GYAC most boaters aren't rich.

Is anybody these days? Was anyone before I wonder? I do sympathise with you on this, my Council Tax is most likely going to be on the up as well. I guess you have to live near London for work / family etc..?

 

People are desperate for moorings up here. Leaving them empty for as long as a year and then releasing them slowly to auction, one by one, people getting in a panic, bidding too much, or making mistakes then pulling out of the auctions (what seems to be happening to me), isn't helping Bw raise money. They have probably lost tens of thousands of revenue just on the moorings in this pound and the one below.

Have you spoken to your local M/Officer about the delays in releasing them? There must be some rationale for it?

 

atb,

Paul

[Dominic M]

There is a system for allocating moorings on the Cam in Cambridge, where once registered for the waiting list you can look up where you are on the list, even get an impression of how long it will take.

I understand that the Local Authority don't in fact allocate moorings on the River Cam, they just allocate the right for an individual to moor on that stretch. This means that if you move your boat you may well return to find your space has been occupied by another boater with a mooring right. Tales of people slipping down to the water point in Cambridge in the dead of night are common. Sounds like a nightmare to me!

 

If somebody knows differently, let me know.

[paulmorgan]

Well there's a corporate reply if ever I heard it;

 

"below what it costs to run them" ?

 

Hi Chris,

OK you say corporate, but I'm saying it's an economy related reply .i.e you can apply that same logic across all goods and services.

 

Most of the online moorings around here, currently going for around £2-3000 per year, are completely and utterly cost free to run, no services, simply the 'right' to leave your boat somewhere you could leave it as part of your licence previously.

 

Cost to run? What are we talking? Some signage? taking the money?

 

pence.

Perhaps we are talking about the electricity to pump water up to the summits to be distributed down, contributing towards the cost of M/Officers to try and carry out a process for distributing the berths and being a point of contact, or carrying out periodic maintenance to try and stop the water all draining away. The point is, there are a lot more on-costs associated with this than maybe you realise. What has been the cost of you making this post - is it free? almost certainly not, you have the cost of the device you have used to connect to the broadband / wireless service to get on to the internet that you have to pay for. You'll have used some electricity to power the device. You may posted from a heated room, the room may have had a light on so you can see better. What on the face of it, may seem cheap to run can have various hidden costs that most people do not immediately think of.

 

The reason the waiting list didn't work is because it was run in an unfair, incompetent and nepotistic manner. Scaring people into paying over the odds is not the answer.

 

atb,

Paul

[Lady Muck]

Have you spoken to your local M/Officer about the delays in releasing them? There must be some rationale for it?

 

atb,

Paul

 

I get the impression completely overworked, she had hundreds of sites to look after. I leave her alone TBH, I think she gets enough hassle as it is.

[paulmorgan]

So, despite saying you agree, you do actually believe that auctioning sets the market price?

 

Does that mean BW will be reducing the mooring fees for those nearby ones that didn't sell?

 

No, I thought not. So it only sets the market price if that results in an increase?

 

Quite funny really.

 

Gibbo,

I don't know if there is a history between you and BW or not, but is there any point in replying back to you on this? I can try and answer the points honestly, but your post reads like you've already made your mind up about what I should say / think.

 

Do you want me to leave you to the conversation in your head, or do you actually want to have a conversation and exchange of views?

 

Leave it up to you mate.

Atb,

Paul

[Guest]

I understand that the Local Authority don't in fact allocate moorings on the River Cam, they just allocate the right for an individual to moor on that stretch. This means that if you move your boat you may well return to find your space has been occupied by another boater with a mooring right. Tales of people slipping down to the water point in Cambridge in the dead of night are common. Sounds like a nightmare to me!

 

If somebody knows differently, let me know.

 

I understood that's how all BW moorings operate too - though generally it's never a problem on the canals and people are quite disciplined about it (to the point that we see little name plates on moorings) technically your mooring fee only gives you the right to moor a boat of a particular length at a particular stretch...

 

but I am happy to be corrected.

[Dominic M]

Gibbo,

I don't know if there is a history between you and BW or not, but is there any point in replying back to you on this? I can try and answer the points honestly, but your post reads like you've already made your mind up about what I should say / think.

 

Do you want me to leave you to the conversation in your head, or do you actually want to have a conversation and exchange of views?

 

Leave it up to you mate.

Atb,

Paul

It is a reasonable point to make that if you truly want a market value, there would not be a reserve price. I would accept that there are minimum costs below which it is not economic to lease the mooring, but that doesn't stack up either. Before the Waterscape website was changed recently you could search by area for moorings even though the auction date had passed - by a number of years. There were several on the Thames in the Poplar Dock/Canary Wharf area that had reserve prices of c.£9k. That cannot be the minimum cost of running such a mooring, so the statement that the reserve prices reflect running costs is pretty disingenuous.

[paulmorgan]

OK, I'm uncomfortable enough now to speak up.

 

Hi Paul, can I ask in what capacity you post here. Paul the canal enthusiast, Paul the developer (which is what your profile says), Paul the BW employee, Paul the BW spokesman. To give a reason for me asking this, for anything other than BW spokesman Allan's reply could be inappropriate.

 

If you are here as a BW spokesman, could you amend your profile and signature to reflect this please?

 

Richard

 

Hi Richard,

I'm not a spokesmen no, but I do work for BW, I do love the canals (I love any type of water really), I love solving problems for people related to the work I do, hence being on the board later at night when my family have settled down. I don't have a problem with Allan or anyone else asking honest questions, after all, we should all talk to each other. I talk to people on the canal near me, sometimes I tell them I work for BW and sometimes not I don't have all the answers to their questions, sometimes I might but I can't say anything due to Data protection - that's just the way it is. I don't have an interest in all the topics on CW, but I do have an interest in ones related to the sites I work on and I think it is more than worthwhile to understand the problems that people may encounter - we struggle to get constructive criticism, so this post to me is very valuable and aids me when I want to make a point(s) to others in BW. However, I do try to measure what I say depending upon the time, for example, I'd probably be a bit more circumspect, whereas later on in the day is my time, so that's more of my opinions and I might be more inquisitive to posts.

 

In short, BW is becoming is a charity, part of that is a mindset change that needs to happen for us(BW) to be more open and transparent. Getting out there and talking with people not only the bank, but in forums and on blogs is part of that process and we need to encourage more to do it - some are, but I suspect many are not for various fears. So, coming on here and asking a few pointed questions seems for me at least, the way to go. If I can understand your problems I can try to do something about them, if I don't then we have an impasse.

 

I understand that some people will hate us whatever we do, that's fine, but it's the other people that are prepared to have a chat periodically that are the ones I like to speak to. I also think talking to people that are not necessarily part of a larger organisation is a good thing as they are the silent majority and getting some of their ideas are just as valuable IMHO.

 

That's my reason d'etre I guess for being here, so if you're a board mod and you think I need to update the profile, please let me know.

 

Had late dinner, so back to work now, but will try and check back later tonight for any queries on this thread.

 

All the best,

Paul

[RLWP]

Hi Richard,

I'm not a spokesmen no, but I do work for BW, I do love the canals (I love any type of water really), I love solving problems for people related to the work I do, hence being on the board later at night when my family have settled down. I don't have a problem with Allan or anyone else asking honest questions, after all, we should all talk to each other. I talk to people on the canal near me, sometimes I tell them I work for BW and sometimes not I don't have all the answers to their questions, sometimes I might but I can't say anything due to Data protection - that's just the way it is. I don't have an interest in all the topics on CW, but I do have an interest in ones related to the sites I work on and I think it is more than worthwhile to understand the problems that people may encounter - we struggle to get constructive criticism, so this post to me is very valuable and aids me when I want to make a point(s) to others in BW. However, I do try to measure what I say depending upon the time, for example, I'd probably be a bit more circumspect, whereas later on in the day is my time, so that's more of my opinions and I might be more inquisitive to posts.

 

In short, BW is becoming is a charity, part of that is a mindset change that needs to happen for us(BW) to be more open and transparent. Getting out there and talking with people not only the bank, but in forums and on blogs is part of that process and we need to encourage more to do it - some are, but I suspect many are not for various fears. So, coming on here and asking a few pointed questions seems for me at least, the way to go. If I can understand your problems I can try to do something about them, if I don't then we have an impasse.

 

I understand that some people will hate us whatever we do, that's fine, but it's the other people that are prepared to have a chat periodically that are the ones I like to speak to. I also think talking to people that are not necessarily part of a larger organisation is a good thing as they are the silent majority and getting some of their ideas are just as valuable IMHO.

 

That's my reason d'etre I guess for being here, so if you're a board mod and you think I need to update the profile, please let me know.

 

Had late dinner, so back to work now, but will try and check back later tonight for any queries on this thread.

 

All the best,

Paul

 

Thank you for that Paul. I'm not a mod, just a curious user of this forum.

 

Please, be careful not to put yourself at risk when answering questions. It's important that you are seen to be posting personal opinions, not BW official statements, both for clarity here, and to protect yourself should any BW managers take notice of what you are doing.

 

Oh yes, welcome to the forum, and I agree that constructive and helpful criticism is hard to get and of real value.

 

Richard

Edited November 24, 2010 by RLWP

[Morat]

In all seriousness, a mate of mine at work is married to a software test engineer. She's freelance and normally works for banks and building societies testing their new systems before they go live. She's VERY expensive, but if you had a properly tested auction system it should surely pay for itself?

PM me if you want contact details.

[Gibbo]

Gibbo,

I don't know if there is a history between you and BW or not, but is there any point in replying back to you on this? I can try and answer the points honestly, but your post reads like you've already made your mind up about what I should say / think.

 

Do you want me to leave you to the conversation in your head, or do you actually want to have a conversation and exchange of views?

 

Leave it up to you mate.

Atb,

Paul

 

I'll ask it in a different way and see if that gets a result.

 

1. Does BW believe that auctions set the market price and if so will BW be reducing the mooring fees for those nearby ones that didn't sell?

 

2. If BW doesn't believe auctions set the market price then why did they say they do?

[Tony Brooks]

Gibbo,

I don't know if there is a history between you and BW or not, but is there any point in replying back to you on this? I can try and answer the points honestly, but your post reads like you've already made your mind up about what I should say / think.

 

Do you want me to leave you to the conversation in your head, or do you actually want to have a conversation and exchange of views?

 

Leave it up to you mate.

Atb,

Paul

 

 

Trouble is Paul that I suspect the majority of regular boaters have "history" with BW.

 

What you are seeing is the long term effect the various decisions, promises, actions and words from senior BW managers have had upon ordinary boaters and their perception of what BW is about - and for me it seems not be be about waterways but more about shovelling large amounts of cash away from the waterways and the local, skilled staff into very greedy trouser pockets not only of the managers but their friends as well via "joint ventures" and letting contracts.

 

I find it unbelievable that BW have to be taken to court before they will respond to FOI requests, as I do their apparent attempts to break their promises and bury minutes so the people who pay most to them can not see how they behave.

 

I do not envy you trying to get truly non-partisan feedback because I think most of use have had our perceptions poisoned over the years and have been taught never to take what BW say at face value. Hence the suspicion that the mooring auctions are not undertaken to set market rates but rather to try and extract the maximum income and so on.

 

It will take years for boaters to learn to trust BW and its successor(s) again and it will be never unless there is a complete clear out at the top.

[Athy]

I understood that's how all BW moorings operate too - though generally it's never a problem on the canals and people are quite disciplined about it (to the point that we see little name plates on moorings) technically your mooring fee only gives you the right to moor a boat of a particular length at a particular stretch...

 

That would surprise me, Martin, but I too would like to know the answer.

On a slightly off- but related topic, have BW closed their Waterscape web site as part of their ecomony drive? I just tried to look at it, trying various Google entries for it, but all came up as unobtainable.

Edited November 24, 2010 by Athy

[weeble]

Trouble is Paul that I suspect the majority of regular boaters have "history" with BW.

 

What you are seeing is the long term effect the various decisions, promises, actions and words from senior BW managers have had upon ordinary boaters and their perception of what BW is about - and for me it seems not be be about waterways but more about shovelling large amounts of cash away from the waterways and the local, skilled staff into very greedy trouser pockets not only of the managers but their friends as well via "joint ventures" and letting contracts.

 

I find it unbelievable that BW have to be taken to court before they will respond to FOI requests, as I do their apparent attempts to break their promises and bury minutes so the people who pay most to them can not see how they behave.

 

I do not envy you trying to get truly non-partisan feedback because I think most of use have had our perceptions poisoned over the years and have been taught never to take what BW say at face value. Hence the suspicion that the mooring auctions are not undertaken to set market rates but rather to try and extract the maximum income and so on.

 

It will take years for boaters to learn to trust BW and its successor(s) again and it will be never unless there is a complete clear out at the top.

 

A good, honest post.

[Guest]

That would surprise me, Martin, but I too would like to know the answer.

 

I've just read through a BW mooring agreement on line and I think I am wrong...

[ymu]

Firstly, welcome Paul. I think it's very useful to have a voice from BW here - I've long wondered why not. A lot of specialist forums have contributors from relevant bodies, and it's very helpful. For your sake, making it semi-official might be wise. Representing your job on internet forums can come back to bite you.

 

Secondly, a lot of what you seem to be saying are the costs of running a mooring site are the costs of running the waterways. We all need water in the system, and taps and elsan points, whether we are permanently moored in the area or not. The cost of running a mooring site is solely the cost of having the moorings regulated by permits rather than as visitor/towpath moorings. In many cases this cost is minimal, and there can't be many sites where the cost is genuinely very high - how many have facilities provided for moorers only that go beyond an electricity point?

 

Fact is, if moorings aren't selling at the reserve price, the reserve price is too high. If it would genuinely be cheaper for BW simply to remove that mooring site then of course, that is what they should do, but I doubt there are many cases where the marginal cost of maintaining permanent moorings for BW are anything like as high as the reserve prices that aren't being met.

[Chris Pink]

 

 

Perhaps we are talking about the electricity to pump water up to the summits to be distributed down, contributing towards the cost of M/Officers to try and carry out a process for distributing the berths and being a point of contact, or carrying out periodic maintenance to try and stop the water all draining away. The point is, there are a lot more on-costs associated with this than maybe you realise.

 

 

hmm, more corporate garbage, sorry Paul.

 

The water needs pumping anyway, the maintenance should be done anyway - you were talking about the cost of providing the mooring, not the influence of the income stream.

 

As for the admin costs, I am not convinced, to administer the distribution of 2 dozen online moorings without services is trivial in the face of the level of the charges. if it is then I can offer to do it for you for the price of a couple.

 

You remind me of a politician who, asked a question, answers another completely.

 

The low take up in moorings is because they are priced both way over what they cost and what, realistically, people can afford.