BW auction - did you see the end price??

[ymu]

It's not about knowledge, it's about expertise. Knowing what the strands are as well as where to find them. Even if I had the time, I am not sufficiently embedded in the world of boating yet to be an effective or convincing campaigner. You can't have an ignorant twat like me planning a campaign solo - it won't work.

 

If there are people with the knowledge and inclination (and as many enthusiastic others as want in), I'd be very happy to help out with the action side, where I do have a reasonable amount of knowledge and experience - but there has to be input from people who know what they're talking about when it comes to the issues and the history.

 

I'm finishing off my doctorate at the moment. I can brainstorm with someone who can fill in the relevant details, but there is absolutely no way I can research the issues from scratch as well as work on ideas for action right now.

[Allan(nb Albert)]

Paul,

 

Let me make it quite clear to you that it is BW's board that decided that minutes of board meetings would be published in a timely manner and it was BW's Chief Executive that said this would normally be within 2-3 weeks of a meeting.

 

BW also have a legal obligation under the foi act to produce these documents quickly (within 20 working days) if requested. I have made such a request and they are now breaking the law.

 

If you go back and look at my foi request on whatdotheyknow.com you will find that I have asked for an internal review of BW's failure to respond to my request. This was acknowledged but BW have failed to respond within the timescale given.

 

You will also note that I have asked for the matter to be put before the board.

 

I suggest you do not attempt to defend the indefensible.

 

Did you know that BW held its November board meeting a few days ago and I have made a further freedom of information request.

 

Why should I have to do this when BW says they will pro actively publish?

 

Just so that anyone interested knows the up to date position on this, here is the latest on whatdotheyknow.com

 

Kelly Radley

British Waterways Board

 

29 November 2010

 

Dear Mr Richards,

 

On behalf of BW, please accept my apologies for not completing the

internal review you requested within the 15 day deadline. Preparing for

the move to civil society, whilst still taking care of the day to day

running of the waterways, means that workloads are very high at the moment

and I am unable to give you a firm date for when you can expect an outcome

from the review. Therefore I understand if you wish to pursue this matter

further with the Information Commissioner's Office.

 

Yours sincerely

 

Kelly Radley

 

Internal communications & customer services manager

 

Direct line: 01923 201151

 

[mobile number]

 

 

Allan Richards

 

29 November 2010

 

Dear Kelly Radley,

 

I am very sorry to hear that every one of your 18 directors is too

busy to carry out a review.

 

However, I beg to point out that BW is not yet part of civil

society and, as such, you are breaking the law by not providing the

information requested.

 

You are required by law to respond promptly to my request and

normally within 20 days.

 

Once again, I would ask you to cease breaking the law and provide

the information I have requested.

 

Yours sincerely,

 

Allan Richards

 

Perhaps it was suggesting Clive Henderson could provide a copy got a few backs up article

Edited November 29, 2010 by Allan(nb Albert)

[paulmorgan]

Paul,

 

Let me make it quite clear to you that it is BW's board that decided that minutes of board meetings would be published in a timely manner and it was BW's Chief Executive that said this would normally be within 2-3 weeks of a meeting.

 

Hi Allan,

Yes, I get that. No one is disputing that.

 

BW also have a legal obligation under the foi act to produce these documents quickly (within 20 working days) if requested. I have made such a request and they are now breaking the law.

 

Yes, you can clearly see that also on the WDTK page. Again, no disagreement.

 

If you go back and look at my foi request on whatdotheyknow.com you will find that I have asked for an internal review of BW's failure to respond to my request. This was acknowledged but BW have failed to respond within the timescale given.

 

You will also note that I have asked for the matter to be put before the board.

Yes, can see all that. Keep at them. It will be interesting to see which Director it is - I guess some of them will be prepping for the Annual Meeting as well.

 

I suggest you do not attempt to defend the indefensible.

 

I'm not attempting to defend the indefensible (the clue is in the word ), at what point have I ever said you're wrong? Rather, I've offered my humble opinions on what may be dragging them behind that's all. You do not have to accept any of it. This is a forum, I'm allowed to express my opinion. I am simply trying to round out the thread. It is quite clear looking over the WDTK page, that they have missed the dates.

 

Did you know that BW held its November board meeting a few days ago and I have made a further freedom of information request.

 

No, I did not. The first I heard of it, was when I spoke briefly to the PA of the Scretariat chasing up the minutes for the website, and it was mentioned that the meeting was the day before and that the Sept minutes should have been agreed at that meeting. I think I was clear about this earlier in this thread.

 

As an addendum to that point, I spoke again to the PA and they are still chasing for the document, we'd like to get it there before the A/M on Thursday, but as I said above, the Director concerned may also be assisting or prepping for the A/M. If you're going to that, perhaps you could ask? or Tom could?

 

Why should I have to do this when BW says they will pro actively publish?

Obviously you should not have to, and you're right to hold them to account. I'll ask again - Have you asked for a face-to-face meeting? That would seem a good way to communicate your grievances and they can explain the delays.

 

The peaks would presumably be the same as the peak time for buying boats, as most people have to go to work in summer the same as they do in winter. Summer is the peak time for buyers.

 

No firm evidence for this, but would it? I mean, you can have a mooring separate from having a boat AIUI. So you could sell your existing boat and get a new one to stick on the same mooring - in effect, you don't have to move, you're just changing the type of home. Guess it's like static caravans on holiday homes? Alternatively, you can argue that most ppl might change their location at the same time as changing their boat - double change is as good as a rest so to speak

 

*sparking some ideas in my head for data mining*

[paulmorgan]

@sueb

oooh! where did he say that then, was it to one of the magazines or a U/G meeting?

 

 

thanks,

paul

 

User group meeting.

Paul it is lovely having someone from BW trying to communicate. Eugene has been sorely missed. It is a pity Sally doesn't come on here to explain what is going on. There would hopefully be more understanding then.

Sue

Hi Sue,

Thanks for the tip off, what region was the user group under? So I can have a gander when the notes are published...

 

Sally has been busy with quite a few trade and organisation annual meetings IIRC - seems that they all pitch up around the same time, and she's been up in Hatton or Leeds a lot lately, I would guess partly to do with the Boat licence fees and such.

 

atb,

paul

[paulmorgan]

These figures are not taken from BW's accounts but from a document provided under the foi act.

 

The figures are taken from a single line of a planning document prepared by Robin Evans for BW's board.

 

The purpose of the document is to enable the board to decide where staff can be shed (in response to Defra funding cuts) with minimum impact to the business.

 

In short it is a redundancy planning document.

 

My guess is that bankside staff will be hit hardest. The announcement of closure of Watford may be a prelude to head office redundancies.

 

As an aside, BW normally publish this document on its website but it is "missing". Perhaps Paul forgot to put it up

Hi Allan,

Why don't you just tell me the name of the doc and we can see if it's supposed to be on the website or not? Given your description, I doubt it would be, but then again, not every document ever produced within BW goes up on to the website either. So sometimes it pays to ask, as you have clearly done here via a FOI.

 

Also, I appreciate this is the internet and meanings can be misconstrued so, could you clarify what you are implying by putting the word 'missing' in quotes?

 

I put up the documents I am requested to onto the website. I do not keep a full inventory of all documents produced within BW and BW does not publish all documents produced within it onto the website... not yet anyway, but it might be an aim for the future. I'll leave all the attendant pro's and con's of that for another time.

 

atb,

paul

[paulmorgan]

As a general reply on two points related to the O/P.

 

1. The auction process is being changed to allow a confirmation page of the price entered. There will also be a check for a 5 digit number (10,000+) which also equates approximately to a 10x guide price check with a prominent notice of the high bid amount.

 

2. Kim Dale (National Moorings Manager) was busy today, so I couldn't speak with her, but I should hopefully be able to speak with her tomorrow. I will point out the concerns expressed thus far and point her to the thread. As ever, no guarantees on any outcome, but at least she will be aware.

 

atb,

Paul

[Allan(nb Albert)]

Hi Allan,

Why don't you just tell me the name of the doc and we can see if it's supposed to be on the website or not? Given your description, I doubt it would be, but then again, not every document ever produced within BW goes up on to the website either. So sometimes it pays to ask, as you have clearly done here via a FOI.

 

Also, I appreciate this is the internet and meanings can be misconstrued so, could you clarify what you are implying by putting the word 'missing' in quotes?

 

I put up the documents I am requested to onto the website. I do not keep a full inventory of all documents produced within BW and BW does not publish all documents produced within it onto the website... not yet anyway, but it might be an aim for the future. I'll leave all the attendant pro's and con's of that for another time.

 

atb,

paul

 

The board have agreed to pubish documents associated with its board meetings within a few weeks of those meetings in a spirit of openness. Only a few of those documents are published and then only when BW's executive decide to to so.

 

BW do eventually publish minutes, agenda and ceo report (if made) but not reports from various sub committees and executive directors reports.

 

The information that I refer to is from the ceo (ie Robbin Evans) report for the July board meeting.

 

I am quite happy to accept that Paul was never given it to put up on BW's website.

 

You will see later ceo reports on BW's website and earlier ones but not this one!

 

It is, of course, available on whatdotheyknow.com together with many other documents. Further information relating to executive bonus targets may be found on Wikileaks.

 

To save anyone interested searching(particularly Paul and other BW staff who will be hit with redundancies), I have extracted the relevant table from the report. You will see that BW will be £10.5m in the red this year (despite redundancies, restructuring and cost savings last year that should have amounted to £10m).

 

Edited November 30, 2010 by Allan(nb Albert)

[Davo_Willow]

Hi Sue,

Thanks for the tip off, what region was the user group under? So I can have a gander when the notes are published...

 

Sally has been busy with quite a few trade and organisation annual meetings IIRC - seems that they all pitch up around the same time, and she's been up in Hatton or Leeds a lot lately, I would guess partly to do with the Boat licence fees and such.

 

atb,

paul

 

Hi Paul,

 

Can't someone lend her a laptop for half an hour or so between trade and organisation meetings, to respond in person to us her customers and the consumers of her primary services?

 

A few lines in this open forum, from the respective execs themselves would go along way to reassure us that BW cares and sometimes even listens to us. How much of their precious time would it cost them to give us that courtesy? I am not suggesting a response is needed to every question, but some input would be great.

 

It is great to have you on the forum - and prepared to respond so directly on the issues.

 

Davo.

[Allan(nb Albert)]

Hi Paul,

 

Can't someone lend her a laptop for half an hour or so between trade and organisation meetings, to respond in person to us her customers and the consumers of her primary services?

 

A few lines in this open forum, from the respective execs themselves would go along way to reassure us that BW cares and sometimes even listens to us. How much of their precious time would it cost them to give us that courtesy? I am not suggesting a response is needed to every question, but some input would be great.

 

It is great to have you on the forum - and prepared to respond so directly on the issues.

 

Davo.

 

Yes - give her a laptop. Perhaps she can explain why private boaters are being subjected to 5.1% licence fee increase but the trade are not.

 

On second thoughts better not! She will only go and tell the trade that they must suffer a licence increase because private boaters are demanding it.

 

Was it only me that spotted that the price rise is for private boaters only?

Edited November 30, 2010 by Allan(nb Albert)

[mikevye]

And your evidence for this is??? Or are you saying I am not allowed to moor in the winter????

 

Sorry for the delayed response only just picked up on this one. Use your eyes!! There are unoccupied boats moored all over the system come down to the Ashby the CMs are everywhere!

[cotswoldsman]

It would be interesting to know what proportion of online BW moorings actually have any exclusive services, as opposed to services available to every passing boater.

 

I was always under the impression that the vast majority of LT online moorings had no provision of services, other than the right to stay there, beyond 14 days, and a pair of mooring rings.....

 

Cost of maintenance, to BW? Negligible, surely.

 

It seems to me that many other people assume that the majority of LT moorings have water points, rubbish facilities and hook-up, laid on for the moorers' exclusive use, which would carry a maintenance cost, to BW. This is certainly not my experience.

 

I have never had a LT Mooring but wile cruising I have often spent nights on LT Moorings when I have seen an empty space I have actually never stopped on one with Electric Hook Up but have seen a few. I often use water points and rubbish bins on LT Mooring spots and have been shouted at by the moorers but as far as I am concerned I pay a licence that allows me to use BW facilities and LT Mooring water points and rubbish bins are a facility and if there is an empty spot then I use it if I can not find anywhere else. This year when I was on the Gloucester and Sharpness and there was a shortage of mooring spaces in Frampton I moored for 7 days on a LT mooring that had loads of empty spaces no facilities though!!

[Guest]

Haven't trawled all the way through this thread to see if it's been posted but I see the following has been posted on the home/front page of the BW moorings auction site-

 

**AUCTION NOTICE - EXHALL BASIN RESIDENTIAL**

Due to a user bidding error on vacancy ref 2310, Exhall Basin Residential, the vacancy is going to be relisted for auction.

The relisted vacancy will be published on 30th November with reference number 2533.

 

BW mooring auctions site link

 

 

Link to auction

 

 

Feel free to ignore this post if it has.

Edited December 1, 2010 by MJG

[paulmorgan]

@Allan

Sept board minutes have just been given to me and I have posted them at:

http://www.britishwaterways.co.uk/about-us/board-and-directors/board-papers

 

The CEO report and Agenda were already there. I'll check and see if someone who deals with FOI requests will also post them to you on that ticket.

 

atb,

Paul

[Allan(nb Albert)]

@Allan

Sept board minutes have just been given to me and I have posted them at:

http://www.britishwaterways.co.uk/about-us/board-and-directors/board-papers

 

The CEO report and Agenda were already there. I'll check and see if someone who deals with FOI requests will also post them to you on that ticket.

 

atb,

Paul

 

With the rest of the information requested associated with those minutes?

[steve hayes]

It would be unwanted both by genuine customers and BW. In this case, Henny took the mooring, so they were serious bids.

 

Paul

 

Paul

 

It would appear that you have suffered the BW department of mis-imformation, wecome to the world of the BW customer

 

Steve

[paulmorgan]

Paul

 

It would appear that you have suffered the BW department of mis-imformation, wecome to the world of the BW customer

 

Steve

Hi Steve,

No. What I stated at that time was correct and the bid history reflected that. I'll have to speak with somebody to see if they mind if I (and I am able to) fill you in on the rest of the story - it was quite unusual, a unique occurrence AFAICR.

 

Sometimes it is as frustrating for people inside BW, NOT being able to say things as it is for you people outside. I just want to make sure I don't contravene the Data Protection Act, which at the end of that day, is there for the customer's protection.

 

I do think BW need to modify the display of bid histories though and am discussing that with the relevant people.

 

atb,

Paul

[alan_fincher]

I do think BW need to modify the display of bid histories though and am discussing that with the relevant people.

An example of where I think the system is less than perfect - Vacancy 1568

 

When first advertised, this showed bids, including a winning bid at, (I think!), £2,205. I can't remember how many bidders in total, but clearly more than one.

 

However the bid history now displayed implies nobody bid at all.

 

At best this is misleading, and the history of what actually happened on that auction is now lost to anybody who pulls up the details.

 

I for one would be interested to know what went on with this (and similar) auctions.

[paulmorgan]

With the rest of the information requested associated with those minutes?

Hi Allan,

AFAIA Chris Gray should be sending you the information as he is the person responsible for FOI requests. So long as he understands what information should be sent, then you should get it. Doing a quick google over the FOIA, I would guess that any other reports you may be after, may or may not be forthcoming depending upon whether they fall under an exemption clause or not, but it might be worth clarifying with Chris on this. As ever, IANAL, so see your own legal advice etc..

 

What I can say, is that I fulfilled what I set out to do, which was get the Sept minutes on the site for you asap, and you have them in time for the A/M tomorrow.

 

atb,

Paul

[paulmorgan]

An example of where I think the system is less than perfect - Vacancy 1568

 

When first advertised, this showed bids, including a winning bid at, (I think!), £2,205. I can't remember how many bidders in total, but clearly more than one.

 

However the bid history now displayed implies nobody bid at all.

 

At best this is misleading, and the history of what actually happened on that auction is now lost to anybody who pulls up the details.

 

I for one would be interested to know what went on with this (and similar) auctions.

Hi Alan,

I do agree here, and as you say, coming back to them after a longer time period, it can be hard to work out what happened.

 

If you can give me some time, again, I will check things over with somebody and hopefully provide a fuller description. I'm not a spokesperson for BW, so I do like to check things over before commenting on something that is _not_ my area of expertise. In many ways, I'm in the same boat as yourself, other times I might be an informed observer. It depends on the topic really.

 

The good thing about the web is that at least it's not printed on paper and can be corrected / amended if improvements or clarifications are undertaken. I will ask if this is feasible to be done in the near future as I think it gives more transparency to the auction in retrospect.

 

atb,

Paul

[PiRSqwared]

An example of where I think the system is less than perfect - Vacancy 1568

 

When first advertised, this showed bids, including a winning bid at, (I think!), £2,205. I can't remember how many bidders in total, but clearly more than one.

 

However the bid history now displayed implies nobody bid at all.

 

At best this is misleading, and the history of what actually happened on that auction is now lost to anybody who pulls up the details.

 

I for one would be interested to know what went on with this (and similar) auctions.

 

I believe that a possible reason for this is that the "winner" defaulted on the auction. There may of course be other causes.

[Allan(nb Albert)]

Hi Allan,

AFAIA Chris Gray should be sending you the information as he is the person responsible for FOI requests. So long as he understands what information should be sent, then you should get it. Doing a quick google over the FOIA, I would guess that any other reports you may be after, may or may not be forthcoming depending upon whether they fall under an exemption clause or not, but it might be worth clarifying with Chris on this. As ever, IANAL, so see your own legal advice etc..

 

What I can say, is that I fulfilled what I set out to do, which was get the Sept minutes on the site for you asap, and you have them in time for the A/M tomorrow.

 

atb,

Paul

 

Under the foi act, it is BW's responsibility to provide the information I have requested (promptly and normally within 20 working days), not an individuals. BW do not have the option of withholding these reports and they are breaking the law by doing so. They may redact certain information within them only in exceptional circumstances.

 

BW know exactly what information I am requesting as they have provided similar information under the act before. If they don't they should have come back to me for clarification as required by the act.

 

Inferring that you are too busy, as your directors are trying to do, is not an excuse for breaking the law.