What is a ''proper'' Trad Stern?

[carlt]

Odd isn't it. I'd not seen those before. I think they're bloody gorgeous. I'm actually tempted.

As I said, each to his own.

 

I do not object to this type of boat being built, just the outrageous claims that it is anything remotely like a Josher.

 

It's a bit Lexus claiming that their top of the range vehicle (a perfectly good car, I'm sure) is a Mercedes replica.

 

Thanks. Just got to find a piccy of a River Class.

[fudd]

As I said, each to his own.

 

I do not object to this type of boat being built, just the outrageous claims that it is anything remotely like a Josher.

 

It's a bit Lexus claiming that their top of the range vehicle (a perfectly good car, I'm sure) is a Mercedes replica.

 

 

[/quotes

Say no more. Regards Steve P.

[FadeToScarlet]

 

 

Roe is moored 3 boats behind us, briefly next to Lee.

 

Both are for sale, if anyone wants a more modern working boat.

[Hairy-Neil]

I can't see much wrong with them.

 

Surely to be a replica they would want to be the same size as the original for starters.....

[fudd]

Odd isn't it. I'd not seen those before. I think they're bloody gorgeous. I'm actually tempted.

You'd better hurry up then Gibbo, because the owner has decided to split the pair.

 

Surely to be a replica they would want to be the same size as the original for starters.....

Point taken.

[Phil Ambrose]

Talking about Sterns, I have the original spec and invoice for our boat and it is described as having a "Bess" stern. Anyone know what a Bess stern is? Oh she is a semi trad

 

Phil

Edited September 27, 2010 by Phil Ambrose

[mykaskin]

Good morning. What is in your opinion the best possible attempt at building an authentic replica motor or butty. Just curious because apart from looking a little "busy" I can't see much wrong with them. I'm sure there are a lot of people who haven't seen a real pair so have nothing to compare them too. As I said, I'm just curious. Regards Steve P.

 

Roger Fuller produces some real nice boats in a tradional style:

 

http://www.canalnarrowboats.com/NEWBOATS.HTM

 

Roger is current making a Braithwaite butty in steel, and very nice looking it is too. I'll see if I can get some pictures.

 

Mike

[alan_fincher]

I just wonder what everyone thought of the Admiralty class when they were first built.

When the Admirals or the Rivers were built nobody tried to pretend that they were Josher replicas.

 

They didn't even bother to "glue" "rivets" on the things, for Gawd's sake!

 

I don't particularly have a problem with the appearance of many boats that claim to have "Josher bows" or to be "Northwich copies" or whatever. What I have a problem with is them being marketed as looking like something they do not.

 

That said, I do find the Stowe Hill boats of a certain era particularly odd looking, and it wouldn't matter what you called them, the appearance would never grow on me.

 

This is not a great picture, but this Steve Priest copy of a Little Northwich looks far closer to what it is supposed to be replicating than most of the Josher copies ever manage, (well, to me, at least!).

 

 

A "River" with a deck board and cloths ? Hardly traditional is it ?

 

Edited September 28, 2010 by alan_fincher

[Chertsey]

Some more Rivers (aka Blue Tops or Dustbins) here.

 

The one entitled 'the one at Bill Fen' is Axe; the one on the Coventry which I have labelled as 'being restored' I am now inclined to think may actually be a replica - but would anyone, really??

 

Lee, which when I saw it in 2007, still had the last remaining Harbourmaster engine, has now been converted to a conventional counter stern with interior engine - a shame, especially as they're now selling it anyway.

[Cris P]

Yes that ABNB pair is weird, but I can understand the logic behind it - I've got a family and recording studio on board with me.

 

Kenneth appears to be up for sale at the moment on Apollo Duck.

 

Clonecraft - love it! Though there is a world of difference between a Yarwoods inspired (minus the bulk) Mike Heywood bow and say a Liverpool boats.

And, to be purely Trollesque here, I'd add that that Hudsons bow looks like a pastiche of a Heywood imitation of a Yarwoods.

[Josher]

 

Sorry ABNB, I reallise I'm not doing much to help you sell this "unique pair", but to be honest you haven't had a lot of luck with that have you.

 

Deposit received (Status: Completion due) - just for the butty though! here

[koukouvagia]

Deposit received (Status: Completion due) - just for the butty though! here

 

The chap who's just bought this butty is intending to fit an hydraulic drive. He got in touch with me to find out how I fitted one to our genuine Braithwaite and Kirk butty.

 

 

At certain times of the year the canal turns very clear and you can see how it was done.

[Speedwheel]

Fantastic pic!

[PaddingtonBear]

Brinklow Boys, Ian Kemp, Keith Ball, and possibly the 'best' of all David Harris

[Tam & Di]

Great replies thank you.

The picture posted by Alan of Angel is exactly what I am talking about.

Surely a stern like that could be built with a counter no?

 

 

But I can't see why you would want to. Why go to the considerable expense, given all the complex double curvature involved, of building a butty stern, and then motorise it. A motorised butty is never as efficient as a boat properly designed as a motor boat. And if you put a counter on it, surely you are not even going to see the butty stern. Once it's properly ballasted you just see the counter. Or are you suggesting you still retain the butty shape ellum and tiller bar? That would probably be even more bizarre. There is presumably something I am not understanding about your concept.

 

The chap who's just bought this butty is intending to fit an hydraulic drive. He got in touch with me to find out how I fitted one to our genuine Braithwaite and Kirk butty.

 

 

At certain times of the year the canal turns very clear and you can see how it was done.

 

Is that prop and cowl fixed, so it only gives thrust directly backwards, or does it move so you get your steering in that way. There does not look to be a lot of rudder left to redirect thrust. We did a couple of hydraulic drive conversions in the 80s, one to a River Lee size lighter owned by Gren Middleton and used as a puppet theatre. We mounted the prop in the rudder itself so it acted as an outdrive. The lighter had about a foot of concrete in the bottom to serve as floor and for stability so was very heavy, but it steered magnificently, even in reverse. We powered it with a 2.2 BMC mounted crosswise right in the very stern.

 

Actually I take back my comment about a motorised butty never being as steerable as a motorboat, as it could be done. But I'd still ask why.

Edited November 30, 2010 by Tam & Di

[koukouvagia]

 

 

 

Is that prop and cowl fixed, so it only gives thrust directly backwards, or does it move so you get your steering in that way. There does not look to be a lot of rudder left to redirect thrust. We did a couple of hydraulic drive conversions in the 80s, one to a River Lee size lighter owned by Gren Middleton and used as a puppet theatre. We mounted the prop in the rudder itself so it acted as an outdrive. The lighter had about a foot of concrete in the bottom to serve as floor and for stability so was very heavy, but it steered magnificently, even in reverse. We powered it with a 2.2 BMC mounted crosswise right in the very stern.

 

 

Here's a clearer picture.

 

 

The motor is fixed onto the ellum and is driven by a 1.8 BMC. The boat is very manoeuvrable and goes like the clappers – it's just like having an outboard on a dinghy. Also there's almost no wash – probably because of the ring surrounding the prop. The only drawback with this arrangement is if I ever need to tow the butty. There is not a very great area of rudder in the water.

[Doorman]

There are some new build butties about but I have yet to see one that looks "right".

 

Then again, there are very few builders about that can make a "josher" bow, now, most looking like either a grotesque caricature or a standard clonecraft with a few washers stuck on.

 

Eh up! I've got feelings you know

[CanalWalker]

Its a shame that canal boat design in the last 20 years is based around building mock "traditional" boats from the olden days rather than building 21st century boats.

[Ray T]

Its a shame that canal boat design in the last 20 years is based around building mock "traditional" boats from the olden days rather than building 21st century boats.

 

 

IMHO if you build 21st century boats you finish up with something rather akin to "Whitefield"!

[alan_fincher]

Its a shame that canal boat design in the last 20 years is based around building mock "traditional" boats from the olden days rather than building 21st century boats.

BW probably think something similar every time they try and use some modern alternative to the 200 year old lock, bridge or other feature that they are trying to replace.

 

Sadly though, (like many "innovative" ideas attempted in modern canal boats), the outcome is not usually as satisfactory as the older technology.

 

EDITED to remove some strange "upper casing".

Edited November 30, 2010 by alan_fincher

[pete harrison]

There are some new build butties about but I have yet to see one that looks "right".

 

 

Like you I have seen very few modern butty's that look "right", including the butty I used for camping which was built in 1972 (and my 1976 motor wasn't much better).

 

I would draw your attention to SISKIN built by Steve Priest about 20 years ago. This was built along the lines of a Large Northwich - although Large Northwich butty's were never originally built of course - and has had a full length house boat cabin since new. I think a 'Josher' butty was built by Brinklow Boat Services a few years ago and I am sure this would have been of a similar quality.

[pete harrison]

Thanks. I see what you mean. I just wonder what everyone thought of the Admiralty class when they were first built.

 

If I had been a North West boatman in the late 1950's I would have been very happy to have taken on an 'Admiral class' pair, or at least a motor as the first butty's did not swim well. The alternative would have been to stay with an old fashioned, heavy and deep Josher, with a wooden cabin that you can bet had at least one leak when it rained and an engine that was designed to power Noah's ARK.

 

The 'Admiral class' were light weight, all steel, powered by a modern air cooled engine and built to be effective in shallow water. Interestingly all of the 'Admiral' motor's were employed in full time carrying into the early 1970's, and all six pairs still exist today (in some form).

[Dominic M]

David Harris made this "josher" bow by building it with planks of steel in order to recreate the double curvature that was the hallmark of the originals. As Paddington Bear said above, David Harris has to be in the top echelon of such builders. He built this one for himself, and kept it for many years.

[Doorman]

David Harris made this "josher" bow by building it with planks of steel in order to recreate the double curvature that was the hallmark of the originals. As Paddington Bear said above, David Harris has to be in the top echelon of such builders. He built this one for himself, and kept it for many years.

 

There's a fine example of a David Harris boat recently moored close to us here at Overwater Marina. The owner, a member of this forum, explained that she had to wait three years, from start to finish, for her boat to be completed. All good things are worth waiting for!

[andywatson]

Commencing end Jan 2011 Dave Harris will be building a boat using his compound curved Josher bow pattern but modified to replicate a wooden BCN tug hull. This will incorporate the stem iron from a wooden boat.