Kelvin

[rrt2]

A little while back there was on one of the forums a photo of the Kelvin petrol container that is used to prime / supply the carburator with enough petrol to start the engine on petrol before changing over to diesel. Could either the poster or anyone else with a photo of one please get in contact with me. I am after a picture of one with the major dimensions.

Many thanks

Barry Adams

[stagedamager]

A little while back there was on one of the forums a photo of the Kelvin petrol container that is used to prime / supply the carburator with enough petrol to start the engine on petrol before changing over to diesel. Could either the poster or anyone else with a photo of one please get in contact with me. I am after a picture of one with the major dimensions.

Many thanks

Barry Adams

 

Hi Barry, Although i can't help directly, i might know someone who does! unfortunately, they are currently off on their travels, so might be a week or two. for what Kelvin model is it?

Regards

Dan

[rrt2]

Hi Barry, Although i can't help directly, i might know someone who does! unfortunately, they are currently off on their travels, so might be a week or two. for what Kelvin model is it?

Regards

Dan

 

 

Thanks Dan

You have a Private email

Barry

[rjasmith]

Thanks Dan

You have a Private email

Barry

 

Barry,

 

It was me that put the photos on. These were the ones I took of the (genuine Kelvin) carburettor filling bottle and priming gun I found when I got involved with the fishing boat Water-Lily and her K3 engine that was the star of the "Floating Kitchen" programme on Discovery Real Time a few years ago.

 

I didn't take measurements of them but thought I might be able to make a replica of the filling bottle one day. All I've done so far is make a mock up using bits and pieces. This demonstrates that I have got the principles more or less right but I haven't made the final version yet. I gather two other CWDF members (koukouvagia and BEngo) might want to make them as well. BEngo says he has made a dimensioned sketch of one he saw at a Kelvin rally but he's not sure where he put it!!! Hopefully he will find it again some day! I did a scribbly sketch of how I planned to make mine which you're welcome to if need be but there's quite a bit of guesswork involved!

 

Maybe we should set up a "Kelvin bottle" supporters group within CWDF for this important subject! Is your engine a K or a J? I don't know if the carbs were different sizes between the K and the J thus needing differently sized bottles.

 

Richard

[NB Alnwick]

 

>snip<

 

Maybe we should set up a "Kelvin bottle" supporters group within CWDF for this important subject! Is your engine a K or a J? I don't know if the carbs were different sizes between the K and the J thus needing differently sized bottles.

 

Richard

 

I am not sure about a "Kelvin bottle supporters group" - although it would be good if we could source some replicas of original Kelvin equipment - it is many years since I completed any decent coppersmithing work but there must be lots of people around with the skills and facilities to make a modest batch of items. Maybe there is room on this forum to start a 'Kelvin engine' section (and even Gardner, Lister or BMC sections) and I might discuss this with Daniel.

[BEngo]

I am not sure about a "Kelvin bottle supporters group" - although it would be good if we could source some replicas of original Kelvin equipment - it is many years since I completed any decent coppersmithing work but there must be lots of people around with the skills and facilities to make a modest batch of items. Maybe there is room on this forum to start a 'Kelvin engine' section (and even Gardner, Lister or BMC sections) and I might discuss this with Daniel.

 

A Kelvin section would have my support- Pete Lock's forums were a bit sporadic but are much missed for the depth of expertise available there.

 

As for Kelvin equipmenet it might be useful to know what is available to be measured and drawn, if that can be done without inviting the attention of the undesirable. I am can produce drawings/sketches from originals (though I sometimes lose the sketches)and I am sure Mike Skyner would be happy to load any drawings and pictures on his site.

 

N

[koukouvagia]

there must be lots of people around with the skills and facilities to make a modest batch of items.

 

Another piece of brass that I'd like to fit to my K2 is the fuel pump air chamber. I'm not sure how effective it is in preventing airlocks since my works perfectly well without one. I've never seen inside one, but I don't imagine it would be difficult to replicate.

 

 

Also has anyone ever seen a box of Kelvin engine spares? The original box contained every conceivable spare part and cost £22. It would be quite nice to have a replica in the engine room to hold my rather more modest collection of spares.

 

BTW you can add my name to the KBSG

[billh]

 

Maybe we should set up a "Kelvin bottle" supporters group within CWDF for this important subject! Is your engine a K or a J? I don't know if the carbs were different sizes between the K and the J thus needing differently sized bottles.

 

Richard

Please can we have a sub-group of the KBSG? The title would be " The Kelvin Petrol Priming Bottle for Models that are not the Really Rather Common Js & Ks User Group"

Membership currently limited to one , with a possible one more member sometime soon.

Bill

[stagedamager]

Please can we have a sub-group of the KBSG? The title would be " The Kelvin Petrol Priming Bottle for Models that are not the Really Rather Common Js & Ks User Group"

Membership currently limited to one , with a possible one more member sometime soon.

Bill

very soon Bill, very soon!!

Regards

Dan

[tom_c]

hopefully very soon as long as we manage to get off the very shallow chesterfield canal. used more diesel from clayworth to ranby and back to forest top than we used from cromwell to stockwith

[NB Alnwick]

Another piece of brass that I'd like to fit to my K2 is the fuel pump air chamber. I'm not sure how effective it is in preventing airlocks since my works perfectly well without one. I've never seen inside one, but I don't imagine it would be difficult to replicate.

 

 

Also has anyone ever seen a box of Kelvin engine spares? The original box contained every conceivable spare part and cost £22. It would be quite nice to have a replica in the engine room to hold my rather more modest collection of spares.

 

BTW you can add my name to the KBSG

 

I have seen a number of 'K' series engines without the fuel pump air chamber - we haven't got one either. Perhaps they were removed because they were found to be unnecessary or perhaps they leaked - and became a liability; I have heard this explanation. The bottom part or 'body' with the air bleed screw appears to be present on our engine but it is capped off with a union and a piece of copper fuel line bent over. As far as I can see, the remainder comprised only of a hollow brass cylinder (possibly one inch in diameter) with the end cap(s) soldered in place.

[rjasmith]

Good grief - what did I start with my jokey suggestion of a KBSG!?

 

I need educating - what other Kelvins need a petrol priming bottle apart from K's and J's? The petrol/paraffins perhaps? I didn't think the later diesels used this system.

 

As for the fuel pump air chamber - I've got one on my K2. The cylinder itself is 41mm dia by 182mm tall and should be relatively easy to make I suppose. The difficult bit would be the brass casting at the bottom.

 

Richard

[Timleech]

Good grief - what did I start with my jokey suggestion of a KBSG!?

 

I need educating - what other Kelvins need a petrol priming bottle apart from K's and J's? The petrol/paraffins perhaps? I didn't think the later diesels used this system.

Richard

 

Clearly not, they are straightforward diesels.

I think there should be, in the interests of equality and non-discrimination, a group for non-bottle Kelvin owners so that we don't feel left out.

 

Mind you, I like just turning the key & pressing a button to start up. Not much to polish, either

 

Tim

[billh]

Good grief - what did I start with my jokey suggestion of a KBSG!?

 

I need educating - what other Kelvins need a petrol priming bottle apart from K's and J's? The petrol/paraffins perhaps? I didn't think the later diesels used this system.

 

 

Richard

Our Kelvin has things on the top of the cylinder heads called "priming valves" Part of the starting process involves putting a little petrol down each of them from a genuine Kelvin Petrol Priming Bottle that we haven't got, hence the need for the sub section to design, build and lease one (or two). The priming valves also serve as de-compressors and "test valves" when running to check the combustion in each cylinder. This model Kelvin was designed in 1920's , before the Js & Ks and was still being built in 1958- by which time it was rather old fashioned.

Bill

[MtB]

I didn't take measurements of them but thought I might be able to make a replica of the filling bottle one day. All I've done so far is make a mock up using bits and pieces. This demonstrates that I have got the principles more or less right but I haven't made the final version yet.

 

Interesting. How DO they work then, exactly? I understand that each time you invert the bottle the correct quantity of petrol to prime the carb is dispensed from the reserviour - is that right? Or do they just pour out petrol for as long as you hold them inverted, in which case their main function seems to be to minimise the escape of petrol vapour into the boat whilst guessing how much petrol to put in.

 

Whichever, add me to the list of people interested in making a proper priming bottle!

 

Mike

[rjasmith]

Interesting. How DO they work then, exactly? I understand that each time you invert the bottle the correct quantity of petrol to prime the carb is dispensed from the reserviour - is that right? Or do they just pour out petrol for as long as you hold them inverted, in which case their main function seems to be to minimise the escape of petrol vapour into the boat whilst guessing how much petrol to put in.

 

Whichever, add me to the list of people interested in making a proper priming bottle!

 

Mike

 

 

Mike - I can PM you with details of how I plan to make a bottle if you're interested.

 

Yes, the bottle gives a measured quantity of petrol every time it is poured. Think of those 1960's/60's seaside cafe sugar dispensers. The operation is not disimilar to that.

 

Have you read the article written by Mike Harper in the 50's about using the bottle and starting his K2?

 

See Mike Skyner's website re everything Kelvin here

 

Richard

[MtB]

Mike - I can PM you with details of how I plan to make a bottle if you're interested.

 

Yes, the bottle gives a measured quantity of petrol every time it is poured. Think of those 1960's/60's seaside cafe sugar dispensers. The operation is not disimilar to that.

 

Have you read the article written by Mike Harper in the 50's about using the bottle and starting his K2?

 

See Mike Skyner's website re everything Kelvin here

 

Richard

 

Well yes I've read Mike Skyner's site but I don't remember any mention of using the dosing bottle thing - I'll read it again!

 

Yes I'd definitely be interested in your details. I've given it a bit of thought and here's MY design. I wonder how close it is to the Kelvin product....

 

 

 

 

Forgive the clunky drawing please, I knocked it up using a very inappropriate program :-)

 

Mike

 

Edited to insert the picture instead of a link to it

Edited September 11, 2010 by Mike the Boilerman

[rjasmith]

Well yes I've read Mike Skyner's site but I don't remember any mention of using the dosing bottle thing - I'll read it again!

 

Yes I'd definitely be interested in your details. I've given it a bit of thought and here's MY design. I wonder how close it is to the Kelvin product....

 

 

 

 

Forgive the clunky drawing please, I knocked it up using a very inappropriate program :-)

 

Mike

 

Edited to insert the picture instead of a link to it

 

Mike - I've pm'd you with a few details of my prototype etc

 

Richard

[MtB]

Another piece of brass that I'd like to fit to my K2 is the fuel pump air chamber. I'm not sure how effective it is in preventing airlocks since my works perfectly well without one. I've never seen inside one, but I don't imagine it would be difficult to replicate.

 

 

 

I have this part fitted to my K1. Not clear what it is for at all! Here's a pic:

 

 

(I'll post the videos I took today of my K1 running in a sec....)

 

Mike

[NB Alnwick]

I have this part fitted to my K1. Not clear what it is for at all! Here's a pic:

 

 

(I'll post the videos I took today of my K1 running in a sec....)

 

Mike

 

Mike - I think the idea is that it provides a reservoir of fuel to act as a buffer to even out the pressure when the fuel is supplied via a mechanical lift pump but that is only supposition based on the fact that the few original installations that I have seen in photographs seem to have had this part omitted where fuel is supplied by gravity.

 

Just an observation - yours looks shorter in proportion to its diameter than the example shown in the parts list.

[MtB]

(I'll post the videos I took today of my K1 running in a sec....)

 

Mike

 

 

Here we are: Three rough and ready vids I took this afternoon of me starting then stopping the K1. Annoyingly I appear to have lost the bit where I change over from petrol to diesel on start-up.

 

I'm posting these videos here in a not particularly obvious place because severral people have expressed an interest but as you'll see, the installation is only partly finised. In fact the engine room and BMC are both in a right state. The standard of installation workmanship is, to be polite, patchy, and details of the installation are unacceptable in a hundred ways. One or two of the problems have already been pointed out from the stills I've put on here already! Anyway, I'll take some better videos and post them more prominently on this site once I've finished the installation myself.

 

Here's the first, "Starting the Kelvin K1 on petrol by hand"

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yjcQhmNZ3Hk

 

There is a rambling commentary from me that gets drowned out once the engine is running. I'll add some annotations to the videos soon so you can read what it is I'm mumbling about!

 

 

And the second, "The Kelvin K1 running on diesel"

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=296rnWrIKBQ

 

There is a third video "stopping the K1" which the site software will not let me post. It gives me an error message saying I am trying to post too many video links, or something like that. I'll try putting it in another post after this one.

 

 

Mike

 

There is a third video "stopping the K1" which the site software will not let me post. It gives me an error message saying I am trying to post too many video links, or something like that. I'll try putting it in another post after this one.

 

 

Mike

 

Edited to ask if any of the mods can change the parameter which appears to limit me to posting only two videos. I can't find any way of including the third video in this thread.

Edited October 4, 2010 by Mike the Boilerman

[Proper Job]

Fantasic set of video's Mike

 

You must be well chuffed. It sound and look the biz

 

Edit:

Youtube links:

Link 2

Link 3

Edited October 4, 2010 by Proper Job

[NB Alnwick]

Edited to ask if any of the mods can change the parameter which appears to limit me to posting only two videos. I can't find any way of including the third video in this thread.

 

Mike the problem is that many of us still have very slow connections - particularly those of us who must rely on a mobile connection from the boat when we are beyond the reach of 3G. Bearing this in mind it is better to post links as 'Proper Job' has done . . .

[MtB]

Mike the problem is that many of us still have very slow connections - particularly those of us who must rely on a mobile connection from the boat when we are beyond the reach of 3G. Bearing this in mind it is better to post links as 'Proper Job' has done . . .

 

 

Ok but I thought I WAS posting just the links! Does this site try to download whole video then to anyone browsing this thread?

 

And thanks for your comment on youtube Graham. I'm sure you'd be able to start your K3 just as easily if you put your back into it :-)

 

Mike

[NB Alnwick]

Ok but I thought I WAS posting just the links! Does this site try to download whole video then to anyone browsing this thread?

 

Yes although those of us unable to download such files will just see a large blank space!

 

And thanks for your comment on youtube Graham. I'm sure you'd be able to start your K3 just as easily if you put your back into it :-)

 

Mike

 

Genuinely impressed with the way you started the engine!

And I am jealous

The exhaust sounded great when it was running on diesel.

 

I think you will find it very different in operation to the modern 'tractor' engine that you took out. The biggest difference (which will be exaggerated on a single) is that you have to allow a lot more time for the engine (and reverse gear) to respond - you can't 'slam it into reverse' like a modern engine and you will find that by the time you have slowed the engine to a tick-over, wound it into reverse gear and then waited for the engine to accelerate again, you might easily have travelled another boat length - which all means planning manoeuvres further ahead and approaching potential hazards extremely cautiously. Nevertheless, that is a small sacrifce to make compared with satisfaction to be obtained from listening to that slow 'tump, tump, tump' of your nice clean exhaust!