Kelvin

[Proper Job]

Obviously you'll have to ignore the inferior engine placed in the middle, but this is Ocelots (without the clutter that it now contains)

Edited October 27, 2010 by Proper Job

[MtB]

Obviously you'll have to ignore the inferior engine placed in the middle, but this is Ocelots (without the clutter that it now contains)

 

Nice pics Steve, but a shame they are significantly obscured with the Canal World logo. Is there a way to see the whole pic?

 

Anyway, a decision has been made on the colour scheme for my engine room now, and I've even bought the paint! Winchester Green for the lower half, Eau de Nil for the top.... ;-)

 

Now moving on, how does one check the oil content of a J forward/reverse box? I seem to remember Dick telling me I have to drain the box, measure the quantity of oil and adjust it to one sixth of a gallon, then put it back in again.

 

Have I remembered this correctly? Seems a bit of a faff considering how thoughtfully the engine has been designed in so many other ways.

 

Mike

[koukouvagia]

 

Now moving on, how does one check the oil content of a J forward/reverse box? I seem to remember Dick telling me I have to drain the box, measure the quantity of oil and adjust it to one sixth of a gallon, then put it back in again.

 

Have I remembered this correctly? Seems a bit of a faff considering how thoughtfully the engine has been designed in so many other ways.

 

 

I've seen a couple of Kelvins with a rather neat dipstick and copper tube which is bolted on in place of the drain plug plate. It's one of the jobs I haven't got round to yet.

[rjasmith]

Well I've learned something else! Do you mean to say that the J gearbox has no dip stick assembly on the back? The K gearbox does (well mine does!). What do you do to drain yours - do you remove a cover plate on the back below the thrust box as on the K? It's this cover plate that has a dip stick tube attached to it. Perhaps you could modify your cover plate or make another one that includes a dip stick?

 

Richard

[MtB]

Well I've learned something else! Do you mean to say that the J gearbox has no dip stick assembly on the back?

 

Hi Richard,

 

Yep. No dipstick on mine.

 

The K gearbox does (well mine does!).

 

Yes well yours is a beautifully reconditioned one fresh out of Seaward Engineering with all the latest innovations incorporated (like a thermostat), innit!

 

 

What do you do to drain yours - do you remove a cover plate on the back below the thrust box as on the K? It's this cover plate that has a dip stick tube attached to it. Perhaps you could modify your cover plate or make another one that includes a dip stick?

 

 

Well I don't do anything to drain or check it at the moment and I was thinking I really ought to be checking, hence my question.

 

And while you're around, I've got my Amot valve now. MONSTROUS great waterways in it, totally different league to the domestic TMV type bath tap blenders. I'd guess the whole valve weighs about a kilogram or more and looks just the job. The other thing that is now clear to me is that an Amot valve cannot be used in conjunction with a weir-type flow indicator. Not unless I fit two header tanks, one on each of the output ports on the Amot. So I've ordered one of these instead to go in the flow pipe into the Amot, the style "GF": http://www.flowpoints.co.uk/downloads/Gunmetal.pdf

 

Maybe Seaward make the gearbox dipstick arrangement Jim mentions and you have on yours. Any chance of a photo please? Maybe I can make one for myself, or perhaps Seaward will sell me one...

 

Mike

 

P.S. getting back to the original thread subject, I have aquired a large, clean, scrap copper hot water cylinder WITHOUT foam insulation stuck all over it. Excellent material from which to fabricate a dosing bottle - if anybody here is on the verge of getting the tools out and doing some tin-bashing and would like some sheet copper...

[koukouvagia]

Well I've learned something else! Do you mean to say that the J gearbox has no dip stick assembly on the back? The K gearbox does (well mine does!). What do you do to drain yours - do you remove a cover plate on the back below the thrust box as on the K? It's this cover plate that has a dip stick tube attached to it. Perhaps you could modify your cover plate or make another one that includes a dip stick?

 

 

 

Here's a picture showing the DIY dipstick. You can find the full article on Mike Skyner's excellent Kelvin website.

Edited November 3, 2010 by koukouvagia

[rjasmith]

Here's one I took a while ago that shows the dip stick assy on my K gearbox.

 

 

Very similar to the one that Tom Montagu's picture shows except the cover plate is a fairly beefy casting (with yet more of the splendid instruction words on it!) and the tube is steel, not copper. The dip stick itself is a close wound "spring" (think large size lace curtain wire!). The level marks are a pair of brass rings crimped on to the stick at the high and low points. They're about 1.5" apart so level is not that critical.

 

Your Amot valve sounds splendid! I looked at my TMV (It's an older (but new and unused) TMV2 not a TMV3) and the ports/water channels through it are not too small really although admittedly a bit less than full bore 22mm. I've taken out the silly little nylon check valve inserts on the connectors. Bearing in mind that water flow will share between the hot and cold ports once I get it set up to the right temp, I think its resistance to flow shouldn't be a problem.

 

When the time comes I'll do some checks with a pressure gauge to see what sort of pulse pressures result with the valve in and out of circuit. If it seems to be a problem I can always go for an Amot valve now you've done the pioneering!

 

Richard

[Proper Job]

Nice pics Steve, but a shame they are significantly obscured with the Canal World logo. Is there a way to see the whole pic?

 

Mike

Another try........

 

Edited November 3, 2010 by Proper Job

[billh]

Here's one I took a while ago that shows the dip stick assy on my K gearbox.

 

 

Very similar to the one that Tom Montagu's picture shows except the cover plate is a fairly beefy casting (with yet more of the splendid instruction words on it!) and the tube is steel, not copper. The dip stick itself is a close wound "spring" (think large size lace curtain wire!). The level marks are a pair of brass rings crimped on to the stick at the high and low points. They're about 1.5" apart so level is not that critical.

 

Your Amot valve sounds splendid! I looked at my TMV (It's an older (but new and unused) TMV2 not a TMV3) and the ports/water channels through it are not too small really although admittedly a bit less than full bore 22mm. I've taken out the silly little nylon check valve inserts on the connectors. Bearing in mind that water flow will share between the hot and cold ports once I get it set up to the right temp, I think its resistance to flow shouldn't be a problem.

 

When the time comes I'll do some checks with a pressure gauge to see what sort of pulse pressures result with the valve in and out of circuit. If it seems to be a problem I can always go for an Amot valve now you've done the pioneering!

 

Richard

I hope you have scrapped that lifting sling now it has been cut! Can't have you dropping a Kelvin on your toe- the engine might get damaged.

Bill

[BEngo]

Here's one I took a while ago that shows the dip stick assy on my K gearbox.

 

Interesting photo. The factory dipstick solution. I have a self- built dipstick on my J made by adding a copper tube to a spare drain plate. It's actually easier to collect the odd drips from the reverse bush and add some more oil when it looks like enough has escaped that it would be a good idea.

 

The traditional measure for 1/6 of a gallon is believed to be a Teachers whisky bottle. This might also have doubled as the drain receptacle for the governor overflow, but it always seemed to me that in the interests of cleanliness it would have been a better idea to prepare a fresh bottle each time one was needed.

 

Off-dipstick-topic, but what is behind the oval cover plate on the rear of the crankcase just below the governor ( to the left of the lifting sling and just above the gear casing securing stud)? I've never sen one of these on a J, and there's nothing behind there on a J, so what does it do on a K please?

 

N

[rjasmith]

I hope you have scrapped that lifting sling now it has been cut! Can't have you dropping a Kelvin on your toe- the engine might get damaged.

Bill

 

Yes, I did wonder if someone might comment on that dreadful old sling! Rest assured, it certainly did NOT have anything to do with the original lift to install the engine in the boat. Mr B Tuckey did that with a proper crane and certified slings. It was still scary to watch the engine swinging across the drive and in through the roof hatch. I was inside guiding it down anyway so I wouldnt have wanted it to get damaged if it had fallen on my head.

 

The dodgy sling is only used to lift the engine tiny amounts from a gantry crane for the purposes of alignment shimming and similar tasks. (Actually the slightly frayed edge looks far worse than it is in that photo).

 

Richard

[rjasmith]

Here's one I took a while ago that shows the dip stick assy on my K gearbox.

 

Interesting photo. The factory dipstick solution. I have a self- built dipstick on my J made by adding a copper tube to a spare drain plate. It's actually easier to collect the odd drips from the reverse bush and add some more oil when it looks like enough has escaped that it would be a good idea.

 

The traditional measure for 1/6 of a gallon is believed to be a Teachers whisky bottle. This might also have doubled as the drain receptacle for the governor overflow, but it always seemed to me that in the interests of cleanliness it would have been a better idea to prepare a fresh bottle each time one was needed.

 

Off-dipstick-topic, but what is behind the oval cover plate on the rear of the crankcase just below the governor ( to the left of the lifting sling and just above the gear casing securing stud)? I've never sen one of these on a J, and there's nothing behind there on a J, so what does it do on a K please?

 

N

 

I must admit I thought all K's had these dip sticks. Certainly Water-Lily's 1937 K3 had one but the dip stick itself was missing. Staying with the net curtain wire theme I actually made up a length of curtain wire with a knot at the top for a handle and two permanent marker pen marks for high and low. As far as I know this splendid device went all the way to Paris and may be there still if W-L still exists!

 

I'd heard about the Teachers bottle as a governor o/flow receptacle but not the use as a calibrated gearbox oil measure for J's. Amazing how versatile these bottles are. Mind you I don't know whether Teachers made a 1/2 gallon measure for the K. If they did it would make getting rid of that waste fluid you need to drain off first so much harder.

 

Re the oval cover plate - I don't know the answer but I suspect there is just a hole and nothing else inside! I'll open up the front crankcase door tomorrow and have a look for you. The door nuts are still loose from the last oil clean out so it won't take a second.

 

If it's still a mystery after tomorrow I'll see if the Seaward fellows know next time I speak to them.

 

Richard

[MtB]

Re the oval cover plate - I don't know the answer but I suspect there is just a hole and nothing else inside! I'll open up the front crankcase door tomorrow and have a look for you. The door nuts are still loose from the last oil clean out so it won't take a second.

 

If it's still a mystery after tomorrow I'll see if the Seaward fellows know next time I speak to them.

 

Richard

 

 

And if it turns out there IS a reason for the cover plate (and I'm sure there must be or why spend time and effort putting it there?) would you be so kind as to enquire why there is no such cover plate on my K1 please?!

 

 

 

 

Many thanks,

Mike

 

P.S. please ignore the sawdust on the engine, photo taken just after rescuing the boat.

[rjasmith]

Off-dipstick-topic, but what is behind the oval cover plate on the rear of the crankcase just below the governor ( to the left of the lifting sling and just above the gear casing securing stud)? I've never sen one of these on a J, and there's nothing behind there on a J, so what does it do on a K please?

 

N

(snipped)

 

OK I can reveal all about the cover plate!!

 

Are you all sitting comfortably?

 

THERE IS NOTHING BEHIND IT!!

 

Well it does cover a circular hole in the crankcase of about 1" dia. I took off the front door on the governor side to look at it and therefore had to view it through the hole in the internal cast stiffening web that is colocated with the crank main bearing between the cylinders. There is another web with a similar hole in line with the front crank main bearings and if you look in that direction you can see a similar round hole in the back of the timing gear case that would line up with our mystery hole.

 

I wonder about two possibilities:-

 

1. Was there some sort of optional auxiliary shaft that could be fitted here that took its drive off the timing gears?

 

2. My main bearings have oil catching cups on this side of the engine as well as on the other side where the oil pipe and nozzles are. I always thought the main bearing oil was only fed to cups on the magneto side or are there tubes that bring it across from that side? If there aren't and these RHS cups are not normally fed, could there have been an optional RHS pipe that did this job and was fitted through these holes.

 

(Actually all this is probably rubbish because on second thoughts I don't think the big ends would clear anything running down the crankcase in this position!)

 

I'll just have to ring Seawards next week for the definitive answer - I need to chase John about something for the n'th time anyway!)

 

Richard

Edited November 6, 2010 by rjasmith

[MtB]

Switching topics once again....

 

I've read on here and various other places that a scotch bottle is the traditional container for collecting the excess diesel from the governor.

 

I'm pretty sure I've read that either Teachers or Johnnie Walker is the brand of bottle for which Bergius Co used to make a bracket, but which was it? And does the engine really care?

 

Mike

[NB Alnwick]

Switching topics once again....

 

I've read on here and various other places that a scotch bottle is the traditional container for collecting the excess diesel from the governor.

 

I'm pretty sure I've read that either Teachers or Johnnie Walker is the brand of bottle for which Bergius Co used to make a bracket, but which was it? And does the engine really care?

 

Mike

 

I think you would be well advised to use an old baked bean tin as we do - glass doesn't sit that well in a narrow boat engine room - the last thing you need is for someone to kick it and end up with broken glass and oil everywhere . . .

[MtB]

I think you would be well advised to use an old baked bean tin as we do - glass doesn't sit that well in a narrow boat engine room - the last thing you need is for someone to kick it and end up with broken glass and oil everywhere . . .

 

 

Hmmm good point.

 

I am currently using a rather posh looking stainless steel parrot-food bowl which spills only oil everywhere each time I kick it over or step on the rim. Maybe I'll make a fixing bracket for that instead....

 

Mike

[rjasmith]

Switching topics once again....

 

I've read on here and various other places that a scotch bottle is the traditional container for collecting the excess diesel from the governor.

 

I'm pretty sure I've read that either Teachers or Johnnie Walker is the brand of bottle for which Bergius Co used to make a bracket, but which was it? And does the engine really care?

 

Mike

 

Mike,

 

Yes there are various references to this round and about.

 

The answer is definitely Teachers and I believe the following statements are correct:-

 

1. William Bergius, brother(?) of Walter, the company founder, was married to Mary Teacher a daughter (or sister?) of William Teacher. Anyway there was definitely a family connection between the Bergius (Kelvin) company and the Teachers Whisky company.

 

2. (This is my own observation but it won't work on your K1 unfortunately!) On a multi cylinder K the curved shape of the corners and the gap between the crankcase doors almost exactly fits the shape of the shoulders of the oval shaped 70cL Teachers bottle so that it looks as though it was meant to go in there!

 

3. Apparently you could order a bracket to fit the bottle to the engine from the factory - I wonder what its part code was?

 

At the 2004 centenary exhibition in Glasgow celebrating the founding of the Bergius company in 1904 we were invited to the opening ceremony as Seaward Eng were providing most of the engine exhibits and had wanted to put our K2 in as well. In the end they didn't have time to finish it and the hall floor was found not to be strong enough to take a K2 anyway! We still got the invite though and felt extremely honoured when we hadn't done anything to deserve it!!

 

Before the ceremony there were boat trips up and down the Clyde in a genuine Kelvin launch powered by a little petrol E2 and we had a go on that only to end up sitting next to Adam Bergius who was once a chairman of Teachers!!

 

Hopefully others can confirm or deny the Teachers "myth". Also is there any opinion about whether the factory started it or some crew of a Kelvin engined fishing boat came up with the idea first?

 

I wish I'd asked George Bergius about this when we met him about a year before he died.

 

Having just read Graham's comment above - of course the BSS allows a metal container to be used on a vintage engine to catch diesel from the spill pipe but I suppose they would not be happy about a glass bottle despite the tradition. I expect these things can be "got round"!

 

When I get a round tuit I'll make a bracket to both support and protect the bottle.

 

Richard

[koukouvagia]

 

I am currently using a rather posh looking stainless steel parrot-food bowl which spills only oil everywhere each time I kick it over or step on the rim. Maybe I'll make a fixing bracket for that instead....

 

Mike

 

I've piped my overflow back into the main diesel tank.

[stagedamager]

Oh, can it not be Talisker? I like Talisker and have been collecting empty bottles in preparation for all the engines my dad has to restore!!!

Regards

Dan

[MtB]

Great post Richard, thank you!

 

Here's a present for you. No trying to guess what it is before you open it :-)

 

http://www.passco.com/tuit.htm

 

 

 

I've piped my overflow back into the main diesel tank.

 

I thought about that too, but I quite like being able to see how much (or how little) diesel has actually overflowed. Not sure why. I think it's because it reassures me the governor is correctly filled and I gather that's important or it stops governing, in a BAD way.

 

I can't use the boat's baked bean tin as Graham suggests because it's currently in service as a chimney cap.

 

Perhaps I could buy another one on eBay...

 

Mike

 

 

 

(Edited to correct an error. It was Graham not KK who suggested the bean tin!)

Edited November 11, 2010 by Mike the Boilerman

[rjasmith]

I can't use the boat's baked bean tin as Graham suggests because it's currently in service as a chimney cap.

 

Perhaps I could buy another one on eBay...

 

Mike

 

 

 

(Edited to correct an error. It was Graham not KK who suggested the bean tin!)

 

Mike thanks for the tuit - I've collected masses of them over the years - unfortunately they seem not to be very well made these days as they don't always work!

 

At least Graham suggested a baked bean tin. KK prefers to use the rather more up market sweetcorn tins for this sort of purpose but they are not recommended as carburettor fillers as they can block the jet with bits of corn!

 

Perhaps the Teachers bottle would also work in this role with the added benefit that a trace of ethanol in the starting mix might give a Kelvin that extra bit of "get up and go" on a cold morning!

 

(Actually when John at Seaward demonstrates a Kelvin start he usually refers to the carburettor filling task saying, "Aye lets just give her a wee dram"!)

 

Richard

[Proper Job]

I find a sweetcorn tin far more superior for an exhaust chimney cover than a bake-bean tin.

 

Mine is the upmarket version and has a brass knob fitted to it. I quite like the irony of the brass knob and the rusty tin

[billh]

I find a sweetcorn tin far more superior for an exhaust chimney cover than a bake-bean tin.

 

Mine is the upmarket version and has a brass knob fitted to it. I quite like the irony of the brass knob and the rusty tin

Irony of the brass knob-how does that work then?

[MtB]

Well I also like the contrast of a brass knob on a rusty tin for a chimney cap so I've made one like PJ's too, this time from a tuna tin which happens to fit very snugly over the 2½" BSP exhaust outlet socket welded into our roof and a hefty brass front door pull-knob that weighs about a pound. (You can see I've nearly finished this engine installation now can't you?)

 

But I've woken up this thread because I have another Kelvin question. (Are we not going to get the vintage engine section discussed a while ago? No that isn't the question!)

 

My J transmission creeps out of engagement when in ahead. Seems to be working ok but a few hundred metres up the cut you realise the boat seems to be going ever slower, and the engine getting quieter. The reason being that the clutch is slipping and the prop shaft is only turning at about 75% of engine speed. Nipping the gearwheel properly back into ahead position turns out to be necessary. Dick Goble mentioned to me this happens to his J transmission and he carries a weight to hang on the gear wheel to keep it engaged. I now do the same.

 

My question is though, do they ALL do this or is it a fault? Surely it's a fault? Does anyone know how to cure it please? I'm guessing it's going to be expensive.

 

Many thanks.

 

Mike