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 rrt2

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The 'K' series engines were designed to run without a thermostat and with a cold (often freezing) water feed to the pump. Adding non-standard features to the cooling system could have an adverse effect.

 

 

A very helpful explanation. I'm going to leave well alone since my K2 has been running fine for 11 years without any thermostat.

I, like you, have had an overheating problem when the nut on one of the valves in the water pump shattered. Lot's of steam, but after letting the engine cool down for a couple of hours all was well.

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Mike,

 

Actually I agree with Jim and Graham on cooling - if a Kelvin fitted with a regulator is set up properly with all the right restrictor plates in the pipes etc I'm sure it should work well. When we went across the Channel on Water-Lily (K3 plus std regulator etc) the engine seemed to run at the correct (back of the hand!) temp on all heads and cylinders all the way there (14 hours nearly flat out). Later after I'd left the scene but kept in touch by phone she seemed to potter up the French canals without any overheating/cooling problems either (there were other problems but not with the cooling).

 

Maybe your K1 needs a bit of a check by someone like Dick G to see if it has all the bits in the right places? Have you spoken to Stuart G to see how his K1 performed in this respect?

 

Although I'm still glad I've got the the proper Kelvin designed thermostat box on mine, I've only ever seen two engines fitted with it. Both were at Seaward's glorious shed at Pollokshaws Road, Glasgie (glorious because it contains a Kelvin spares mountain that is a delight to see!).

 

I don't think it is vastly more complicated than the regulator really - the only difference is that it has a chamber at one end containing a 60deg C operating waxstat. The other end has a spring loaded valve just like the regulator to control the flow round the external circuit and ensure the water "prefers" to go round the bypass pipe when the stat is closed.

 

There is a difference between mine and the L arrangement which I had forgotten until I had another look at the drgs yesterday. I still have the normal reciprocating pump, not a centrifugal one. The pump can't over pressure any part of the system when the stat is closed as the water can always go round the bypass pipe. In fact doing the "back of the hand" test on this pipe is the quick way to check the engine while it is warming up.

 

If there ever was a problem with the stat (ie stuck closed) it's terribly easy to take it out and run without it - take out 4 screws in the bottom lid and it drops out. As the chamber is level with the heads there wouldn't even be a big amount of coolant to catch and replace.

 

I'll look through my photos in a minute and see if I've got one that shows the set up and then stick it on another post.

 

Richard

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My concern too. Dick Goble has this arrangement on his own Kelvin and he uses a mixture of water and cutting oil as the coolant liquid, which over an extended period of time appears to have that problem under control. My other idea in not to use the 'weir' method at all and stay closed circuit, and to use these nice gunmetal 'Flowpoint' flow indicators instead. http://www.flowpoints.co.uk/downloads/Gunmetal.pdf

 

Then I found out they are £100 each....

 

Mike

How about using one of these, but drill as large a hole in the side of the body as will fit, then araldite a disc of glass into the hole? Doing the same on both sides would enable you to see through and get a better view.

 

David

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Here's the picture.

 

Spring2007105resized.jpg

 

The stat lives in the bottom where the square plate is. The little tap is very useful to check there are no airlocks.

 

You can also see where the bottom pipe just goes round a bend where the regulator would have been and the bypass pipe comes up vertically to join the stat box halfway up it.

 

The external circuit to calorifier/skin tank comes outof the top via the bit of hose but isn't connected in the photo (and still isn't - must get on with it!)

 

Richard

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The 'K' series engines were designed to run without a thermostat and with a cold (often freezing) water feed to the pump. Adding non-standard features to the cooling system could have an adverse effect.

 

The thermostats fitted by Seaward Engineering and various skin or keel tanks in place of rew water cooling appear to work well but in my experience, if the engine runs on the cool side that is no bad thing.

 

Graham,

 

The reason I've been considering thermostatic control is that, contrary to your respected experience and opinion, I was sure I'd read an authoritative source saying that running a Kelvin cool is Not A Good Thing.

 

Now I've found that source. It's paragraph 79 of our old friend

 

KELVIN-DIESEL ENGINES

The Running and Repairing of

Model "K" Series III

Model "K"

Model "KR"

 

"79. EXCESSIVE OIL CONSUMPTION.--This may be due to the use of oil which loses its viscosity when hot (6); if the consumption has gradually increased it is probably due to the piston rings having become slack in their grooves; ring groove wear is, in turn, due to cylinder wear, and cylinder wear, according to the latest opinions, is due partly to high gas pressure and partly to corrosion resulting from combustion. It is thought that most of the wear occurs before the cylinder liner has heated up, during which time the products of combustion condense on the liner and corrode it. It is, therefore, important to bring the engine up to running temperature as quickly as possible (72). The practice of starting a cold engine long before it can be put on load causes cylinder wear."

 

The bold bit is my emphasis and it is this that leads me to think it's important to avoid of cool running and ensure my engine runs at the correct temperature.

 

Section 72 of the above document explains in detail how the water pump stroke is adjusted at the factory to get the running temperature right. As my engine was rebuilt by an independent bod I'm wondering if he has not calibrated the water pump and just installed it set to maximum stroke. This would give the symptoms my engine exhibits. I'm wiring up the alternator and batteries properly today so I'll print section 72 and have a closer look at my water pump while I'm there.

 

Mike

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How cold?

 

Well I spent a happy afternoon today faffing about running the K1 and taking note of the engine temperature under various conditions.

 

I started the engine and ran it at a fast tick-over (about 200rpm) for twenty mins then attached the two thermocouples on my digital thermometer to the engine. One to the cylinder outlet pipe and the other to the cylinder head outlet pipe. Twentyu minutes after starting, the engine had reached 28 degrees C. Both sensors were returning the same value within about a degree C. After a further hour running off-load the sensors had both risen to 30 degrees C.

 

Next I engaged forward gear and ran the engine on part load at about 300rpm with the bow fender pushing against the pontoon in the marina. The engine was quite well loaded like this with the boat held stationery and with deep water (about three metres) below the prop. It took an hour of running like this for the engine temperature to rise to 40 degrees C and there it stablised. Throttling back resulted in a temporary rise for a few minutes to 43 degrees C and opening back up caused a temporary fall of two degrees fro a few minutes before settling back down to about 40 dgrees C.

 

Next I slowed the engine to tick-over (160rpm) but still in ahead gear, and the temperature remained stable, still at 40 degrees C, give or take a degree.

 

 

Ours is perfectly happy at between 40 and 50 degrees C and only ever reaches 60 when we have been working hard for several hours.

Hotter than that is not good. Remember these engines were designed to have freezing raw sea water pumped round them. So as long as you don't leave it running off load for hours on end before it has reached around 45 degrees it will be fine. By closed circuit, I mean that you are not continually pumping fresh cold water in.

 

Well from the above experiment I conclude my K1 is unlikely ever to reach 45 degrees C unless worked really hard. I'm wondering if it is because it has the same water pump as the K2 and K3 but the output from that pump is all directed at cooling just one cylinder instead of two or three.

 

My current thinking is to install a bypass (with a manual gate valve in it for balancing) to short-circuit the outlet from the cylinder/head directly back to the water pump inlet, in order to help the engine warm up more quickly when first started. Once hot the bypass will probably need to remain slightly cracked open to stop the temeprature falling below 40 dgrees C. I'll install a large and very visible thermometer and only fully open the bypass under continuous supervision as the risk if overheating will obviously be elevated.

 

I'm expecting to find with the balancing valve fully open the engine will heat fairly quickly as this will mimic the operation of the original spring loaded bypass valve fitted by Kelvin. As I understand it most of the output of the water pump on an engine with the factory bypass at tick-over bypasses the heads and cylinders and is sent directly to the exhaust manifold. As engine speed rises an increasing proportion of water pump output is directed through the cylinders and heads as pump seed rises but the spring loaded bypass lets by a constant amount.

 

I haven't finished thinking this through yet and I won't carry out any mods until I'm sure I've anticipated all the consequences. Just thought I'd post the results of my tests and write down my thinking on this so far.

 

Mike

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hi mike, we are getting close to installing a kelvin F2 into the wooden tug judith ann, we considered fitting a radiator to avoid raw water cooling, skin tanks not being the easiest solution on a wooden boat! this would give a bit more control over engine temperature if used with an electric cooling fan and a variable temperature switch, unfortunately we have the problem of insufficient cooling water flow using the standard pump, we may end up with a system where we can revert to raw water cooling when on the river and a radiator for the canals. see the kelvin ricardo f2 thread for another video of this engine running

tom

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The by-pass valve idea is a very good one - it will act in a similar way as the old Kelvin 'water regulator' - also, as a boiler man, this is entirely within your area of expertise! Nevertheless, I am just wondering how long the K1 has been running for continuously? Although our K3 can get up to 45 dgrees fairly quickly (about 15 to 20 minutes) it may take as long as two hours of ordinary cruising before the cylinder heads reach 60 degrees . . .

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The by-pass valve idea is a very good one - it will act in a similar way as the old Kelvin 'water regulator' - also, as a boiler man, this is entirely within your area of expertise! Nevertheless, I am just wondering how long the K1 has been running for continuously? Although our K3 can get up to 45 dgrees fairly quickly (about 15 to 20 minutes) it may take as long as two hours of ordinary cruising before the cylinder heads reach 60 degrees . . .

 

I ran the engine today for about 3½ hours to charge the batteries after completing the alternator and split charging installation. I took the temperature recordings during this running period. It took 2½ hours to get up to 40 degrees C where it stabilised for the remaining hour.

 

Next experiment will be to hook up the digital thermometer to the engine again and take it out on the Thames for an hour on full throttle against the current.

 

Switching topic back to magnetos, is a K series magneto clockwise or anticlockwise? I'm inclined to buy one as a spare and there is a reasonable-looking clockwise SR1 on ebay at the moment. And a well knackered-looking anticlockwise SR1 sold on ebay today for £33!

Edited by Mike the Boilerman
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hi mike, we are getting close to installing a kelvin F2 into the wooden tug judith ann, we considered fitting a radiator to avoid raw water cooling, skin tanks not being the easiest solution on a wooden boat! this would give a bit more control over engine temperature if used with an electric cooling fan and a variable temperature switch, unfortunately we have the problem of insufficient cooling water flow using the standard pump, we may end up with a system where we can revert to raw water cooling when on the river and a radiator for the canals. see the kelvin ricardo f2 thread for another video of this engine running

tom

 

Tom,

 

Hmm yes I can see the problem with skin tanks on a wooden boat. Using a radiator would seem a shame though - very unboatly, if you see what I mean ;-)

 

Could you not use external pipes fitted against the swim, in the style of the Kelvin Model 'L'?

 

http://www.sky-net.org.uk/kelvin/diesel/l_range/cooler/index.html

 

 

Mike

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I ran the engine today for about 3½ hours to charge the batteries after completing the alternator and split charging installation. I took the temperature recordings during this running period. It took 2½ hours to get up to 40 degrees C where it stabilised for the remaining hour.

 

Next experiment will be to hook up the digital thermometer to the engine again and take it out on the Thames for an hour on full throttle against the current.

 

Switching topic back to magnetos, is a K series magneto clockwise or anticlockwise? I'm inclined to buy one as a spare and there is a reasonable-looking clockwise SR1 on ebay at the moment. And a well knackered-looking anticlockwise SR1 sold on ebay today for £33!

 

Most standard 'K' and 'J' engines run anti-clockwise - the clockwise engines being only supply as half of a pair - but in your case I don't think it makes any difference! The mag. firing order will be either 0,1 or 1,0 . . .

 

:cheers:

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Most standard 'K' and 'J' engines run anti-clockwise - the clockwise engines being only supply as half of a pair - but in your case I don't think it makes any difference! The mag. firing order will be either 0,1 or 1,0 . . .

 

:cheers:

 

Doesn't it make a difference to the impulse mechanism, the thing that makes starting easier when hand cranking?

 

Richard

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Most standard 'K' and 'J' engines run anti-clockwise - the clockwise engines being only supply as half of a pair - but in your case I don't think it makes any difference! The mag. firing order will be either 0,1 or 1,0 . . .

 

:cheers:

 

I think it's a bit more complicated. When I received my newly rebuilt magneto I discovered it will only spark when turned in the clockwise direction (viewed from the front of the magneto). I know the Kelvin engine turns anti-clockwise (viewed from the front) but when the magneto is viewed from its front, it turns clockwise. I would say therefore, and I'm no expert, that the Kelvin needs a clockwise magneto.

On the RF magneto the bakelite cog that connects to the rotor arm can be positioned in either the A or C position. I presume that an SR1 magneto doesn't have a rotor arm, so I don't know whether there is anything you can swap around to accommodate either a clockwise or an anti-clockwise direction.

 

However, it you get the Ebay magneto and it doesn't work, you can always convert it to battery and coil when it won't matter which direction it sparks, because the only part you'll be using is the points.

  • Greenie 1
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on the sr magneto it is possible to reposition the cam on the rotor to adjust for clockwise or anticlockwise running

tom

 

That's useful to know. It might explain why my magneto is not labelled 'clock' or 'anticlock', while other SR1s on ebay apparently are.

 

I'm puzzled as to how it makes any difference though. I'd expect a magneto to create a spark whichever way it is rotated. The timing of the spark would change but what would STOP a magneto producing a spark if turned 'backwards'? The wires and the magnetic field do not care in which direction they cut each other and the contacts opening would still create the sudden change in current needed to make a spark.

 

Mike

 

I know the Kelvin engine turns anti-clockwise (viewed from the front) but when the magneto is viewed from its front, it turns clockwise. I would say therefore, and I'm no expert, that the Kelvin needs a clockwise magneto.

 

Yep this is why I was asking. The magneto appears to be driven by a train of timing gears and I don't know how many gears in the gear train so it is only a 50/50 chance that it rotates in the same direction as the engine.

 

However, it you get the Ebay magneto and it doesn't work, you can always convert it to battery and coil when it won't matter which direction it sparks, because the only part you'll be using is the points.

 

Yes good idea. I'll buy one as a spare and to play with whichever the claimed rotation direction. Then I might be able to figure out why they only spark in one direction too.

 

Mike

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<snip>

 

I'm puzzled as to how it makes any difference though. I'd expect a magneto to create a spark whichever way it is rotated. The timing of the spark would change but what would STOP a magneto producing a spark if turned 'backwards'? The wires and the magnetic field do not care in which direction they cut each other and the contacts opening would still create the sudden change in current needed to make a spark.

 

<snip>

Mike

 

Because some magnetos have a spring driven impulse device in them to make a bigger spark at low speeds. It holds and them flicks the coils forward as the piston goes over TDC to give faster cutting of the field and a bigger spark. This mechanism cuts out when the engine is running at speed.

 

As it holds then releases the mag, it has to be right for the direction of running.

 

My Father-in-Laws 500cc J.A.P engined cultivator had such a mag to make it easier to hand start. If you were man enough to pull it over compression that is

 

No idea what kind of mag you have of course

 

Richard

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Because some magnetos have a spring driven impulse device in them to make a bigger spark at low speeds. It holds and them flicks the coils forward as the piston goes over TDC to give faster cutting of the field and a bigger spark. This mechanism cuts out when the engine is running at speed.

 

 

I agree that with an impulse mechanism it would be crucial to have a magneto running the right way.

However, when I tested my reconditioned magneto it was not attached to the engine or the impulse mechanism. As I said, one way it sparked, the other way it didn't.

I think there's a lot that I don't understand about magnetos. For example, why does one specialist website I've looked at warn against using modern carbon-cored spark plug leads and insisting that the old-fashioned wire cored lead is used?

Could this be the reason that my magneto burnt out? I had replaced the leads with modern leads just before it stopped working.

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Because some magnetos have a spring driven impulse device in them to make a bigger spark at low speeds. It holds and them flicks the coils forward as the piston goes over TDC to give faster cutting of the field and a bigger spark. This mechanism cuts out when the engine is running at speed.

 

As it holds then releases the mag, it has to be right for the direction of running.

 

My Father-in-Laws 500cc J.A.P engined cultivator had such a mag to make it easier to hand start. If you were man enough to pull it over compression that is

 

No idea what kind of mag you have of course

 

Richard

The impulse starter is a Kelvin design and comes with the engine , so obviously would have the right rotation. The type you mentioned comes with the magneto , I have seen Wico, Simms,Bosch and Lucas ( Prince of Darkness) impulse starters- all a sort of clock spring that is wound up in a circular housing with a pawl and centrifugal levers.

I'm not certain but I think the reason magnetos won't work in either direction is to do with the "advance' of the coil on rotating armature mags in the pole pieces or similar where the rotating magnet position is when the points open ( as in Lucas SR) . To do with when the flux density is at a maximum when the points should open. Shoot me down, if you think I'm talking nonsensel!.

 

Bill

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The petrol put in the carburettor also, I think, should be 1:32 but the manual does not actually state as such. Anyway I used 1:32 oil/petrol in the carb to start the K1 today.

 

Does everyone here use oil/petrol mix to start their Kelvins or plain straight petrol?

 

 

Getting back to an earlier sub-thread in this topic, I thought you might like to see what Kelvin said about the petrol to oil ratio.

 

IMG_9424.jpg

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Getting back to an earlier sub-thread in this topic, I thought you might like to see what Kelvin said about the petrol to oil ratio.

 

What engine is that from? The operating instructions for our Kelvin 'K' series clearly states as follows:

 

22. PETROL/OIL MIXTURE - Should be in the proportion of 32 to 1. This is equivalent to adding one half pint of lubricating oil to 2 gallons of petrol.

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The impulse starter is a Kelvin design and comes with the engine , so obviously would have the right rotation. The type you mentioned comes with the magneto , I have seen Wico, Simms,Bosch and Lucas ( Prince of Darkness) impulse starters- all a sort of clock spring that is wound up in a circular housing with a pawl and centrifugal levers.

I'm not certain but I think the reason magnetos won't work in either direction is to do with the "advance' of the coil on rotating armature mags in the pole pieces or similar where the rotating magnet position is when the points open ( as in Lucas SR) . To do with when the flux density is at a maximum when the points should open. Shoot me down, if you think I'm talking nonsensel!.

 

Bill

 

I was just going to say all that as well - completely agree!

 

If anyone has time to open up an old mower with hall effect ignition instead of a contact set and looks at the way the coil is placed adjacent to the flywheel magnet pole pieces you'll see that the magnet starts to raise current in the coil before it starts to pass the sensor to fire the spark. If it rotated the other way the current would not have built up enough to release enough energy for a spark when interrupted.

 

Richard

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What engine is that from? The operating instructions for our Kelvin 'K' series clearly states as follows:

 

22. PETROL/OIL MIXTURE - Should be in the proportion of 32 to 1. This is equivalent to adding one half pint of lubricating oil to 2 gallons of petrol.

 

All I know it is used by someone with a J. However, I don't think the bottle came with the engine, so who knows what it originally belonged to?

 

I, like you, use the 32:1 ratio for our K. (Not that I measure it out very accurately.)

 

I've just looked up the J manual. The 16:1 ratio relates to this series.

Edited by koukouvagia
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KK at first I thought you'd found a genuine Carb filling bottle there and the photo was of its lid! Maybe you have?

 

I have a photo of Water-Lily's bottle lid which looks very similar (1937 K3) but I'm sure it said 32:1. Unfortunately my photo is too blurred to read the words!

 

We still need someone to come up with the real thing!!

 

Richard

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KK at first I thought you'd found a genuine Carb filling bottle there and the photo was of its lid! Maybe you have?

 

I have a photo of Water-Lily's bottle lid which looks very similar (1937 K3) but I'm sure it said 32:1. Unfortunately my photo is too blurred to read the words!

 

We still need someone to come up with the real thing!!

 

Richard

 

I have found a J owner with the real thing. I'd better not divulge his name or his boat otherwise I shall get the blame if the filler goes missing :lol:

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I have found a J owner with the real thing. I'd better not divulge his name or his boat otherwise I shall get the blame if the filler goes missing :lol:

 

Right that's it then! Your mission is to provide photographs, drawings, material specifications, analysis of the solder used - have I missed anything?

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