Kelvin

[MtB]

Swerving almost back onto the thread topic, I notice the K manual on Mike Skyner's website mentions the petrol used to prime the cylinders should be a 1:32 mix of lubricating oil to petrol. I've never heard this mentioned before, not even by Dick Goble.

 

The petrol put in the carburettor also, I think, should be 1:32 but the manual does not actually state as such. Anyway I used 1:32 oil/petrol in the carb to start the K1 today (and take a video which includes the changeover from petrol to diesel!) and it worked very well.

 

Does everyone here use oil/petrol mix to start their Kelvins or plain straight petrol?

 

Mike

[NB Alnwick]

Swerving almost back onto the thread topic, I notice the K manual on Mike Skyner's website mentions the petrol used to prime the cylinders should be a 1:32 mix of lubricating oil to petrol. I've never heard this mentioned before, not even by Dick Goble.

 

The petrol put in the carburettor also, I think, should be 1:32 but the manual does not actually state as such. Anyway I used 1:32 oil/petrol in the carb to start the K1 today (and take a video which includes the changeover from petrol to diesel!) and it worked very well.

 

Does everyone here use oil/petrol mix to start their Kelvins or plain straight petrol?

 

Mike

 

I don't know if what others do in practice but I did know that the operating instructions state a 1:32 mix (one part oil to 32 parts petrol) - the reason for this is probably to lubricate the cylinder bores during starting. I have seen Dick Goble start his engine on petrol and I am sure that it was a petrol/oil mixture.

[MtB]

I don't know if what others do in practice but I did know that the operating instructions state a 1:32 mix (one part oil to 32 parts petrol) - the reason for this is probably to lubricate the cylinder bores during starting. I have seen Dick Goble start his engine on petrol and I am sure that it was a petrol/oil mixture.

 

Hi Graham,

 

Yes I imagined it was for that reason too. Having started mine on neat petrol four or five times and knowing the boatyard I bought it from did the same a good number of times to demonstrate it to various viewers I'm hoping that not too much excess wear has been suffered.

 

Anyway changing subject AGAIN, and seeing you are a mod, is there any chance of a the idea floated a while ago of a Kelvin board becoming a reality perhaps?

 

I'm never quite sure where to post detailed questions/threads about Kelvin issues having had vocal objections from one poster in particular over on the Boat Building & Maintenance board, saying my discussions there on Kelvins were boring and tedious.

 

A "Kelvin Korner" perhaps? And other specialist boards like Gardner Garden, Lister List and Ruston Ruminations might be well received too perhaps?

 

 

Mike

 

Swerving almost back onto the thread topic, I notice the K manual on Mike Skyner's website mentions the petrol used to prime the cylinders should be a 1:32 mix of lubricating oil to petrol. I've never heard this mentioned before, not even by Dick Goble.

 

The petrol put in the carburettor also, I think, should be 1:32 but the manual does not actually state as such. Anyway I used 1:32 oil/petrol in the carb to start the K1 today (and take a video which includes the changeover from petrol to diesel!) and it worked very well.

 

Does everyone here use oil/petrol mix to start their Kelvins or plain straight petrol?

 

Mike

 

 

And here is a link to the video I recorded today of me hand-starting the Kelvin again, INCLUDING the changover from petrol to diesel....

 

 

Please excuse me muttering, I still haven't got used to how weak the mic is on my camera..!

 

Mike

 

(Edited to put the correct URL in the youtube link!)

Edited October 14, 2010 by Mike the Boilerman

[NB Alnwick]

The idea of creating a special section for vintage engines is under consideration. Hopefully there will be sub-sections form significant makes.

[MtB]

I have this part fitted to my K1. Not clear what it is for at all! Here's a pic:

 

 

(I'll post the videos I took today of my K1 running in a sec....)

 

Mike

 

 

I have another question but I'll post it here pending creation of a vintage engine section.

 

What is inside the brass casting in the water pipe and to the right of the air chamber in the picture above? I seem to remember Dick telling me it was a thermostat but I cannot see any reference to thermostatic control of engine temperature in the installation drawings or service manual on Mike Skyner's site. In fact the service manual mentions adjusting the stroke of the water pump to regulate engine temperature so that suggests there is no thermostat.

 

Even if it is a thermostat housing I suspect mine does not contain one or it has failed because my engine never gets hot. After an hour of ticking I'd say the coolant reaches about 35 degrees C, and after an hour of cruising I'd say it barely reaches 40 degree C. So if this is true does anybody know what the brass casting contains?

 

I'm about to start revising the cooling pipe installation to incorporate some sort of visual indication of the presence of water flow through both the head and the cylinder, and re-connect the calorifier to the engine cooling system.

 

Many thanks.

 

Mike

[koukouvagia]

Hi Mike,

It's a fuel pump air chamber, according to Kelvin. (There's an earlier thread about this, but I've forgotten how to link to earlier posts). It's supposed to collect any air in the fuel system. However, I don't have one on mine and neither do many of the other Kelvins I've seen. The pipe leading to it is just crimped off. This may have been a case of Kelvin over-egging the pudding, since engines seem to work perfectly well without them.

[MtB]

Hi Mike,

It's a fuel pump air chamber, according to Kelvin. (There's an earlier thread about this, but I've forgotten how to link to earlier posts). It's supposed to collect any air in the fuel system. However, I don't have one on mine and neither do many of the other Kelvins I've seen. The pipe leading to it is just crimped off. This may have been a case of Kelvin over-egging the pudding, since engines seem to work perfectly well without them.

 

 

Sorry Jim, I used an old picture to illustrate a new question which I asked rather verbosely.

 

Concisely, do you know what the brass casting to the right of the fuel pump air chamber is?

 

Thanks,

Mike

Edited October 14, 2010 by Mike the Boilerman

[RLWP]

The idea of creating a special section for vintage engines is under consideration. Hopefully there will be sub-sections form significant makes.

 

So that you and Mike can go off and talk about Kelvins in the corner of another room. Why would that be a good idea then??

 

Richard

[koukouvagia]

There is a sentence in the Kelvin Manual that has always puzzled me: “When the engine stops close the injector drains.” Why is this necessary? Is it to prevent air being drawn into the fuel system? I have noticed that when I forget to do this I see air bubbles in the governor reservoir for a about half a minute when I next start the engine. Perhaps the air chamber helps to prevent this.

 

Sorry I'm veering off topic.

 

Concisely, do you know what the brass casting to the right of the fuel pump air chamber is?

 

Thanks,

Mike

 

What's inside the casing? Is it a filter or perhaps a thermostat? I'm intrigued.

Edited October 14, 2010 by koukouvagia

[NB Alnwick]

>snip<

What's inside the casing? Is it a filter or perhaps a thermostat? I'm intrigued.

 

That casing contains (or perhaps used to contain) the water regulator. This is a valve held in place by a weak spring which, when closed, allows a percentage of the coolant to bypass the cylinder water jacket(s).

 

When the engine is running a bit faster than tickover, the pressure from the pump is sufficient to overcome the spring and open the valve so that the cylinder jacket(s) receive a full flow of coolant.

 

The basic idea is to keep the cylinder(s) warm when the engine is running slowly with raw water cooling that, in North Sea conditions, may have been drawn into the system at a temperature well below freezing point. In practice this device is not necessary if you do not use raw water cooling and, on my set-up, the internal components (spring and piston) are no longer present.

 

Below is a scan from the relevant section of the Kelvin parts list:

 

Edited October 14, 2010 by NB Alnwick

[MtB]

Thanks Graham.

 

I just called Dick and he says the same. In plumbing terms it's a bypass valve that reduces water flow through the cylinder and head. He says Seward Engineering sometimes modify it by opening up the hole in the restriction plate and adding a manually adjustable cock in the bypass pipe to the exhaust manifold so engine temperature call be manually controlled. I like that idea.

 

I'm still not sure why an automotive-style wax capsule thermostat is not used. I'm inclined to fit one on mine and then I'll probably find out why they aren't used!

 

Mike

[NB Alnwick]

 

I'm still not sure why an automotive-style wax capsule thermostat is not used. I'm inclined to fit one on mine and then I'll probably find out why they aren't used!

 

Mike

 

Basically, if you use closed circuit cooling, it isn't necessary. Why go to that trouble for something you don't need and that could cause a problem if it failed?

[MtB]

Basically, if you use closed circuit cooling, it isn't necessary. Why go to that trouble for something you don't need and that could cause a problem if it failed?

 

 

Not sure why you say it isn't necessary...

 

1) My engine runs cold, so 'something' needs to be done to regulate the cooling power of the cooling load (i.e. the skin tank) and allow the engine to warm up properly to it's design temperature of about 60 degrees C.

 

A wax thermostat is the simplest, most mainstream tried-and-tested solution that I can think of. Fully automatic and working on a daily basis on hundreds of millions of cars out there! Is there a simpler way I'm overlooking perhaps?

 

2) Why does closed circuit cooling render a thermostat unnecessary? As it happens, my cooling system is open to atmosphere so not closed circuit (in plumbing parlance) or am I misunderstanding what you mean by 'closed circuit'? Is there a school of thought that says open circuit cooling systems DO need a thermostat?

 

Cheers,

Mike

[NB Alnwick]

Not sure why you say it isn't necessary...

 

1) My engine runs cold, so 'something' needs to be done to regulate the cooling power of the cooling load (i.e. the skin tank) and allow the engine to warm up properly to it's design temperature of about 60 degrees C.

 

A wax thermostat is the simplest, most mainstream tried-and-tested solution that I can think of. Fully automatic and working on a daily basis on hundreds of millions of cars out there! Is there a simpler way I'm overlooking perhaps?

 

2) Why does closed circuit cooling render a thermostat unnecessary? As it happens, my cooling system is open to atmosphere so not closed circuit (in plumbing parlance) or am I misunderstanding what you mean by 'closed circuit'? Is there a school of thought that says open circuit cooling systems DO need a thermostat?

 

Cheers,

Mike

 

How cold? Ours is perfectly happy at between 40 and 50 degrees C and only ever reaches 60 when we have been working hard for several hours.

Hotter than that is not good. Remember these engines were designed to have freezing raw sea water pumped round them. So as long as you don't leave it running off load for hours on end before it has reached around 45 degrees it will be fine. By closed circuit, I mean that you are not continually pumping fresh cold water in.

[rjasmith]

Mike,

 

I'm surprised Dick G didn't also tell you that Seaward Eng tend to fit the later thermostatic control chamber instead of the regulator when they supply a rebuilt K engine (like mine!).

 

Graham O once pointed out to me that the thermostatic control mod was really developed for the L engine which used a cooling pipe system mounted externally to the hull, rather than raw seawater cooling. The later Ks were also fitted with this by the factory I believe.

I suppose this system is more similar to the skin tank cooling of a canal boat

 

The pipe work for the thermostatic mod is a bit different to the more usual regulator set up

and you can get an idea of what it looks like, again from Mike Skyner's site, if you look at the parts drgs for the L engine. I think there is also a special section about the L type cooling system on there somewhere. Alternatively, when you are able to pop over here I can show you the real thing! (Although I am still some way off being able to run my engine again).

 

When I used to run it on its trolley, once it had warmed up it sat rock solid at 60 deg C with the thermostat automatically adjusting the flow to get everything into dynamic equilibrium. I'm glad I've got this set up on mine - should make heating the calorifier work well too although I've dreamt up another trick to help with that one day!

 

Richard

[koukouvagia]

This thread is getting very technical. I prefer to follow the simple advice of the Kelvin manual: "At all speeds the water pipe leading upward from the cylinder barrel should be as hot as the hand can bear. The cylinder head should be cooler."

My Kelvin seems to maintain this temperature summer or winter; ticking over or being run hard.

[rjasmith]

This thread is getting very technical. I prefer to follow the simple advice of the Kelvin manual: "At all speeds the water pipe leading upward from the cylinder barrel should be as hot as the hand can bear. The cylinder head should be cooler."

My Kelvin seems to maintain this temperature summer or winter; ticking over or being run hard.

 

Indeed KK and how else would I have known mine was "rock steady at 60 deg C"?! Long before ever coming into contact with a Kelvin engine I was taught this trick at school during chemistry lessons. The "just as hot as a hand can bear" test is a surprisingly accurate way of telling something is at 60 deg C although we were taught that it should be the back of your hand rather than the palm!

 

Of course Walter Bergius would probably have preferred 140 deg F rather than 60 deg C!

 

Richard

[NB Alnwick]

Indeed KK and how else would I have known mine was "rock steady at 60 deg C"?! Long before ever coming into contact with a Kelvin engine I was taught this trick at school during chemistry lessons. The "just as hot as a hand can bear" test is a surprisingly accurate way of telling something is at 60 deg C although we were taught that it should be the back of your hand rather than the palm!

 

Of course Walter Bergius would probably have preferred 140 deg F rather than 60 deg C!

 

Richard

 

I don't know about Walter but that is certainly what George Bergius said - I have a copy his instructions in front of me! Incidentally, apart from the difference in the cooling arrangement, the 'L' series were virtually identical to later 'K' series engines and major parts are interchangeable.

[RLWP]

Indeed KK and how else would I have known mine was "rock steady at 60 deg C"?! Long before ever coming into contact with a Kelvin engine I was taught this trick at school during chemistry lessons. The "just as hot as a hand can bear" test is a surprisingly accurate way of telling something is at 60 deg C although we were taught that it should be the back of your hand rather than the palm!

 

Of course Walter Bergius would probably have preferred 140 deg F rather than 60 deg C!

 

Richard

 

I was listening in that lesson too. At least I think I was because I thought it was physics

 

Richard

[MtB]

This thread is getting very technical. I prefer to follow the simple advice of the Kelvin manual: "At all speeds the water pipe leading upward from the cylinder barrel should be as hot as the hand can bear. The cylinder head should be cooler."

My Kelvin seems to maintain this temperature summer or winter; ticking over or being run hard.

 

I agree, but what would you DO about it in order to follow that advice, if like mine, the water coming from the cylinder barrel remained little more than warm to the touch?

 

The the behaviour of your K2 suggests to me that it might already have the thermostatic control modfication described by Richard!

 

Cheers, Mike

[koukouvagia]

I agree, but what would you DO about it in order to follow that advice, if like mine, the water coming from the cylinder barrel remained little more than warm to the touch?

 

The the behaviour of your K2 suggests to me that it might already have the thermostatic control modfication described by Richard!

 

Cheers, Mike

 

I may have been fortunate and I can't really explain why my Kelvin seems to run at the correct temperature all the time. I don't have Richard's modifcation, BTW.

I wonder to what extent the water flow and hence the temperature is determined by the mesh in the mudbox? Now I come to think of it when I've cleaned it out the engine does seem to run cooler. I'm going to experiment next time I start the engine and try restricting the water coming in through the sea cock to see what difference this makes.

 

I'm sure one the Kelvin gurus on this forum may have other ideas.

[MtB]

Mike,

 

I'm surprised Dick G didn't also tell you that Seaward Eng tend to fit the later thermostatic control chamber instead of the regulator when they supply a rebuilt K engine (like mine!).

 

Graham O once pointed out to me that the thermostatic control mod was really developed for the L engine which used a cooling pipe system mounted externally to the hull, rather than raw seawater cooling. The later Ks were also fitted with this by the factory I believe.

I suppose this system is more similar to the skin tank cooling of a canal boat

 

The pipe work for the thermostatic mod is a bit different to the more usual regulator set up

and you can get an idea of what it looks like, again from Mike Skyner's site, if you look at the parts drgs for the L engine. I think there is also a special section about the L type cooling system on there somewhere. Alternatively, when you are able to pop over here I can show you the real thing! (Although I am still some way off being able to run my engine again).

 

When I used to run it on its trolley, once it had warmed up it sat rock solid at 60 deg C with the thermostat automatically adjusting the flow to get everything into dynamic equilibrium. I'm glad I've got this set up on mine - should make heating the calorifier work well too although I've dreamt up another trick to help with that one day!

 

Richard

 

Hi Richard,

 

Having thought about this properly now for five minutes it is obvious why a conventional wax capsule automotive thermostat arrangement is not used on the K series engine. It's the water pump. The K series has a displacement water pump which would be inclined to burst hoses pumping against a closed thermostat.

 

So having had a look at the L series (which I didn't even realise existed - why are there none in narrowboats?) I see the water pump is an automotive-style centrifugal pump. (A centrifugal pump delivers a designed and fairly low peak pressure pumping against a closed circuit, unlike a displacement pump which has the theoretical ability to deliver infinite pressure.)

 

So, what would be needed would be an in-line automotive thermostat and a spring loaded bypass valve which only opened when the thermostat was closed. Hmmm... now where have I heard about a spring loaded bypass valve before? ;-) Time to open up that brass casting on mine and see what bits (if any) remain, and see how I can bring it back into service!

 

Now I'm imagining using two thermostats. One in the water outlet from the cylinder, the second in the water outlet from the head. The two thermostat-controlled outlets would then discharge using two separate pipes into the header tank so a visual indication of the flow from each is available. Apparently the head (or is it the cylinder?) is prone to air-locking, and without any indication of flow there is no way knowing if this has happened other than by the ensuing cracked head (or cylinder). Not a Good Thing.

 

Yes I think I need to come and look at your K2 soon :-)

 

Cheers, Mike

[MoominPapa]

The two thermostat-controlled outlets would then discharge using two separate pipes into the header tank so a visual indication of the flow from each is available.

Is that a good idea? Having your coolant flowing through a waterfall seems like a good way of keeping it saturated with dissolved oxygen and hugely increasing the rate of corrosion in the water jacket.

 

MP.

[MtB]

Is that a good idea? Having your coolant flowing through a waterfall seems like a good way of keeping it saturated with dissolved oxygen and hugely increasing the rate of corrosion in the water jacket.

 

MP.

 

My concern too. Dick Goble has this arrangement on his own Kelvin and he uses a mixture of water and cutting oil as the coolant liquid, which over an extended period of time appears to have that problem under control. My other idea in not to use the 'weir' method at all and stay closed circuit, and to use these nice gunmetal 'Flowpoint' flow indicators instead. http://www.flowpoints.co.uk/downloads/Gunmetal.pdf

 

Then I found out they are £100 each....

 

Mike

Edited October 15, 2010 by Mike the Boilerman

[NB Alnwick]

The 'K' series engines were designed to run without a thermostat and with a cold (often freezing) water feed to the pump. Adding non-standard features to the cooling system could have an adverse effect.

 

The thermostats fitted by Seaward Engineering and various skin or keel tanks in place of rew water cooling appear to work well but in my experience, if the engine runs on the cool side that is no bad thing.

 

The internal cooling passages on 'J' and 'K' are designed to receive cold water so no harm will be done if the water being pumped remains cool. The important thing is to guarantee an unrestricted flow round the system and this is why the working components of the regulator are often removed on engines with a skin or keel tank.

 

The bigger problem is overheating which may cause cracks in the cylinder head. We have had our engine too hot and it is a dramatic phenomena - the coolant around the cylinder head immediately turns to steam and explodes into the header tank - at the same time the paint around the injector goes black and peels off. Fortunately, we noticed it in time and took the engine off load so that it could cool down gradually.

 

On a car engine the thermostat does not restrict circulation round the cylinder and head cooling jackets - it is merely there enable the coolant to flow through the additional radiator circuits when the engine reaches a pre-determined temperature. This is, to some extent, influenced by the requirement to provide a temperature control facility for the occupants of the car. Vehicle thermostats, are normally located in the cooling circuit after the coolant has flowed through the engine and they usually open at around 80 degrees which would be too high for a 'J' or 'K' series engine. If a thermostat is located in the cooling circuit before the coolant reaches the water jackets it would need to open at around 20 degrees and since this is often the ambient temperature of the engine room it really questions the need for this added complication . . .