Cheap Engine Oil

[steelaway]

Marine Diesels and other special considerations.

Inland Marine Diesels (and certain road vehicles under special conditions) can, and do, glaze their bores due the low cylinder wall temperature causing the oil (and more importantly the additive pack) to undergo a chemical change to a varnish-like substance. The low temperature is caused by operating under light load for long periods.

This is related to engine design, some engines being nearly immune to it and others susceptible. The old Sherpa van diesel engines were notorious for this problem. The "cure" such as it is, is to use a low API specification oil, such as CC. Certain engine manufacturers/marinisers are now marketing the API CC oil for this purpose under their own name (and at a premium). You'll find some modern engines where its' industrial/vehicle manual states API CF and the marinised manual states API CC/CD. {Thanks to Tony Brooks for this information.}

 

 

Copied from ................ The Car Bibles.............. It seems the old BMC diesel engines always had a problem with glazed bores.

 

Our Tony is quite a star.

 

Alex

[Albion]

I am still astonished at the continued obsession with cheap engine oil on this forum. Narrowboats are a significant financial commitment and to risk the long term health of your engine for a "haapeth of tar" is beyond me. I have a marine engine business and see the result of skimping on oil quality time and again. We regularly strip engines from commercial fishing boats that have done thousands of hours of seriously hard work and usually find them clean inside, a testament to decent oil. On the other hand if you want to see an engine that is sludged , tarred up and glazed take a peek at a narrowboat engine that poodles along on cheap oil..save a shilling spend a lot. On the other hand....... I have a hankering for a new tug and therefore highly recommend that you use as much supermarket recycled rubbish as you can buy!

 

Seconded. I have never had any faith in that recycled stuff and, after a lifetime in the automotive business, certainly wouldn't use it in any craft of mine.

BTW, when I had Albion, with her Gardner 4LK, I found that Duckhams did a straight 30W oil but I'm not sure if they still do as it was some time ago. I was also running my own garage business at the time and, as our bulk oil was already Duckhams, it was no problem to add a couple of cases of 4 x 5 litre cans to our order. Might not be so easy as a retail customer via a Duckhams stockist.

Roger

[rgreg]

Morris oil's technical department say: "Once an engine is marinised the API rating of oil required is different to that required when the engine is used for heavier purposes. That's why we recommend Golden Film (API CC ) for canal use. If the engine is being used for sea-going purposes then that is a different matter".

Now I'm not qualified to say whether this is right or wrong, but that's what I was told.

[furnessvale]

I am still astonished at the continued obsession with cheap engine oil on this forum. Narrowboats are a significant financial commitment and to risk the long term health of your engine for a "haapeth of tar" is beyond me. I have a marine engine business and see the result of skimping on oil quality time and again. We regularly strip engines from commercial fishing boats that have done thousands of hours of seriously hard work and usually find them clean inside, a testament to decent oil. On the other hand if you want to see an engine that is sludged , tarred up and glazed take a peek at a narrowboat engine that poodles along on cheap oil..save a shilling spend a lot. On the other hand....... I have a hankering for a new tug and therefore highly recommend that you use as much supermarket recycled rubbish as you can buy!

 

I have no desire to countermand a professional but I feel the clean hard working engine and the sludged up poodling narrowboat engine owe more to the workload that the quality of oil.

 

Can you give us examples of narrowboat engines on "decent" oil that have poodled and not sludged or examples of hard working engines on cheap oil (but properly maintained and oil changed when required) that have blown?

 

Alton ran for years on "cheap" oil in heavy service without problems. By cheap I do not mean the absolute pits at 5 bob a gallon but a reasonable API rated oil far cheaper than major manufacturers, or Morris for that matter.

 

George ex nb Alton retired

[Tony Brooks]

That's an interesting illustration Tony of the apparent enigma in this situation and is, apparently, contradictory to the opinions being put forward by many in this discussion. Industrial engines, abused, neglected and idling all day, running high spec oils appear not to have a problem. Old BMCs, that in the days of J4s would have been running low spec oils changed at relatively short intervals compared to today, did suffer bore glazing. Could it be more to do with the closer tolerances, finer finishes and better materials involved in modern engine manufacture and the tougher, more robust, design of industrial diesels (compared to automotive) than the spec of the oil used? Interesting but I wonder if we'll ever get to a definitive answer on this.

Roger

 

 

 

It could be and it could also be something to do with the shape of the piston crown with some tending to trap hydrocarbons in the gap above the top ring. There are just too many variables. FWIW worth I put J4 in because I did not want to get into a debate about when Sherpas dropped the 1.5 for the horrid Austin-Perkins OVC thing which also glazed. The Gas board were using API CF oils.

 

 

When I was on the fleet we ran mainly BMCs & Listers but with a few Perkins 4-107/108s. All used the same oil which was Castor 20W50 being a reitively modern oil at that time. The BMCs & Listers were fine and gave very little trouble even with vastly extended oil change intervals but the Perkins were a big problem. They kept sludging their oil, even to the extent that a boat that came from the Broads had to have the sump removed and the oil shaken out like a big splodge of black jelly. I solved the Perkins' problems by disconnecting the oil coolers in defiance of the Perkins marine distributor and all was well for the next four years I was there. The fact was the Perkins were over cooling their oil so it never became hot enough in Thames use to drive the condensation off in steam. Now I could have sought an oil specification solution to this but I doubt it would have worked. Instead I applied a bit of thought to discover what was actually different between the BMCs ad Perkins.

 

What I can not get my head round is Beta being very relaxed over the whole glazing thing once the engine has been run in and Vetus stating to me on the phone that if their engines were allowed to idle out of gear for more than xx minutes (I think they said 15) the bores WOULD (my capitals) glaze. I have not heard Thornecroft who marinize the same engine saying this and a major inland Vetus agent flatly contradicted Vetus technical (again verbally to me).

 

I have just changed the oil on the Bukh. This time I used Magsol oil and it smelt totally different to the Wilco stuff and had what I would call a better colour. It smelt like lube oil with no funny taints. Funnily enough Magnol seems to be under the Morris banner.

 

As in so many things today we can not equate cost with quality. If you insist on using Castrol oil you will be paying for all those TV adverts etc plus their competition work and a premium because its Castrol. If you buy Comma who carry out little advertising you get cheaper oil but how can ordinary folk judge its quality? Likewise can we condemn Unipart or other "motor factor" oils as low quality just because they tend to be a few pounds cheaper than "brand leaders".

 

IF an oil can conform to a given API spec it should perform just as well as any other where ever the base oil came from, personally if it smells funny I will not use it again but that is not scientific, its just me being cautious and accepting there is much I do not know & understand. I understand that some crude oil does smell very different from others so the Wilco oil may be new oil but from another source of crude.

 

It is in the intersts of oil companies to keep consumers in the dark about all this so I suggest each of use does what they think best.

[andywatson]

I concur with Tony's view above. (the first post at 9-07)

 

I spoke to Morris's tecnical dept about oil for a Gardner.

To summarise the reply: the additives in a higher spec oil are not used in a lightly loaded canal boat engine and end up deposited on the bores causing glazing.

This doesn't happen in a much harder worked engine.

 

With regard to using Halfords oil it's probably OK but shop staff will tell you whatever you want to hear about who makes it for them.

If you want a more modern non turbo oil from a known and reliable maker why not use Shell which can be had cheaper than Halfords oil. See below:

 

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Shell-Helix-Diesel-S...les_CarParts_SM

Edited August 21, 2010 by andywatson

[journeyperson]

This discussion prompted me to look a bit more closely into what oil I should be using in my LPWS3. I have a pdf of the operators manual - although at the bottom of each page it says "industrial engines"and is dated January 2001. That recommends API-CD grade, in fact it says that grade must be used even though on further investigation I found that CD became obsolete in 1994 and was superceded by CF, which is described in various guides as a modern version of CD which can be used in place of CD.

 

I have used the Carlube Daytona (API-CC) a couple of times, thinking that was the best grade for my engine but I think in future I will stick with API-CF grade oils, whether 20w/50, 10w/40 or whatever.

 

If I had discovered that API-CC oils were suitable I would have no qualms about using the Daytona in future. Various guides also say that CC grade should not be used in engines built after 1990.

 

and then I found this on the API website:

 

"API Announces Discontinuation of CF Licensing

 

On December 30, 2010, API will discontinue licensing diesel engine oils against the API CF specification. This action became necessary after API's Lubricant Committee voted by letter ballot to cease licensing against the performance specification."

 

I expect it will still be obtainable though in the same way API-CC is.

Edited August 21, 2010 by journeyperson

[smileypete]

I am happy to continue using either Morris's SAE 30 or Lister 10/40 API CC. The engine has been happy with that for 34 years. How long does a modern Japanese engine last on higher spec oil?

There's a good thread on SAE 30 vs. multigrade (good website too) here: (clicky)

 

 

Apart from Morris Oils, the only other branded 30SAE oil I have been able to locate with a CC API rating is Castrol Classic and that costs about £22 for a Gallon can (yes they actually refer to it as a Gallon can)

Here's a few: (clicky) (clicky) (clicky)

 

cheers,

Pete.

[n.b.Goldie]

This discussion prompted me to look a bit more closely into what oil I should be using in my LPWS3. I have a pdf of the operators manual - although at the bottom of each page it says "industrial engines"and is dated January 2001. That recommends API-CD grade, in fact it says that grade must be used even though on further investigation I found that CD became obsolete in 1994 and was superceded by CF, which is described in various guides as a modern version of CD which can be used in place of CD.

 

I have used the Carlube Daytona (API-CC) a couple of times, thinking that was the best grade for my engine but I think in future I will stick with API-CF grade oils, whether 20w/50, 10w/40 or whatever.

 

If I had discovered that API-CC oils were suitable I would have no qualms about using the Daytona in future. Various guides also say that CC grade should not be used in engines built after 1990.

 

and then I found this on the API website:

 

"API Announces Discontinuation of CF Licensing

 

On December 30, 2010, API will discontinue licensing diesel engine oils against the API CF specification. This action became necessary after API's Lubricant Committee voted by letter ballot to cease licensing against the performance specification."

 

I expect it will still be obtainable though in the same way API-CC is.

Lister naturally recommend their own brand oil for their own engines. Lister brand oil for Canalstar motors is API-CC. I am sure if this was not correct for their engines they would change it.

 

I have just bought some Ambesta glaze buster fuel additive direct from Morris Oils to try to deglaze my LPWS3 bores due to the previous owner not using the correct oil and running it out of gear for lengthy periods. During conversation with the 'Morris Man' he confirmed that Morris make the Lister brand oil and that their own 10w/40 API-CC is the same stuff.

 

He also said that due to E.U directives Morris will not be making any more Ambesta but are selling existing stock. When its gone its gone so to speak.

 

Hope this helps

 

Ditchdabbler

[sentinel]

Just to throw the proverbial stone in the pond, or canal.

 

I spent a number of years maintaining and repairing shunting locomotives using Rolls, Cummins, Cat, Paxman, English Electric and the like engines as prime movers. Some of these had easy lives and almost annual oil changes, some were receiving oil changes monthly and were mauling well over a thousand tons around with glowing manifolds and a cone of flame on the top of the exhaust. Some of the engines were fairly new, some were over half a century old. In all cases we were using "cheap" un-branded oils, the sort some would not put in their beloved boat engine, and yet these loco power units continued to clock up the running hours year in year out. Heavy use, light use, main engine, donkey engine. We used to take periodic oil samples and have them analysed to check for signs of excessive wear with no with no issues other than at high hours when the expected wear problems resulting from sheer age started to appear, or the odd catastophic failure occured. We carried out a comparative test across similar power units, with a premium oil and with an "el cheapo" that met the appropriate spec; there was no noticable difference over a couple of years. So we continued to buy in the cheapest oil we could - as long as it met the spec, although at times that was difficult, what exactly is "motor lorry engine oil"? If I had not been convinced that this was the right way to go I would have fought the policy, because I would have had to sort out the consequences.

 

Now maybe a canal boat is something special, to the owner it doubtless is, but please consider that if you think your canal boat engine is expensive to overhaul should you get the lubrication wrong then try a Rolls CV12 or an English Electric 6KT. Interestingly I have seen none of the people who fear excessive wear mention oil sampling.

 

Perhaps at the end of the day its a personal choice and one in which you will never please all of the people and will never get agreement.

 

He who is noted for making challenging statements having lit the blue touch paper now retires to a safe distance! However on a serious parting note, I hope this is of some help to somebody.

 

Regards.

[churchward]

Just to throw the proverbial stone in the pond, or canal.

 

I spent a number of years maintaining and repairing shunting locomotives using Rolls, Cummins, Cat, Paxman, English Electric and the like engines as prime movers. Some of these had easy lives and almost annual oil changes, some were receiving oil changes monthly and were mauling well over a thousand tons around with glowing manifolds and a cone of flame on the top of the exhaust. Some of the engines were fairly new, some were over half a century old. In all cases we were using "cheap" un-branded oils, the sort some would not put in their beloved boat engine, and yet these loco power units continued to clock up the running hours year in year out. Heavy use, light use, main engine, donkey engine. We used to take periodic oil samples and have them analysed to check for signs of excessive wear with no with no issues other than at high hours when the expected wear problems resulting from sheer age started to appear, or the odd catastophic failure occured. We carried out a comparative test across similar power units, with a premium oil and with an "el cheapo" that met the appropriate spec; there was no noticable difference over a couple of years. So we continued to buy in the cheapest oil we could - as long as it met the spec, although at times that was difficult, what exactly is "motor lorry engine oil"? If I had not been convinced that this was the right way to go I would have fought the policy, because I would have had to sort out the consequences.

 

Now maybe a canal boat is something special, to the owner it doubtless is, but please consider that if you think your canal boat engine is expensive to overhaul should you get the lubrication wrong then try a Rolls CV12 or an English Electric 6KT. Interestingly I have seen none of the people who fear excessive wear mention oil sampling.

 

Perhaps at the end of the day its a personal choice and one in which you will never please all of the people and will never get agreement.

 

He who is noted for making challenging statements having lit the blue touch paper now retires to a safe distance! However on a serious parting note, I hope this is of some help to somebody.

 

Regards.

Interesting to think also that these kind of locos would also idle away in sidings for long periods too.

[Tony Brooks]

Interesting to think also that these kind of locos would also idle away in sidings for long periods too.

 

 

Yes, but with these and the plant equipment I suspect that when they worked they worked hard, raising the cylinder wall temperature unlike a canal boat on canals where the biggest load probably comes from the alternator(s).

[churchward]

Yes, but with these and the plant equipment I suspect that when they worked they worked hard, raising the cylinder wall temperature unlike a canal boat on canals where the biggest load probably comes from the alternator(s).

True enough when they did have to work they worked hard. Surely though there is more horsepower taken to turn the prop through the water than the alternator spinning? Water has a high resistance after all.

 

Some loco engines (don't know about the ones quoted) were two-strokes as well which often helps as you have twice as many power strokes and so easier to maintain cylinder temp.

[Tony Brooks]

True enough when they did have to work they worked hard. Surely though there is more horsepower taken to turn the prop through the water than the alternator spinning? Water has a high resistance after all.

 

Some loco engines (don't know about the ones quoted) were two-strokes as well which often helps as you have twice as many power strokes and so easier to maintain cylinder temp.

 

Somewhere I have a copy of an old Waterways World article that states a 60 ft narrowboat only needs two or three hp at canal speed of course the faster you go the power requirement get much higher.

 

I do not know how efficient our alternators actually are but from what I read about 30% is not unreasonable, especially when you see how much air they shift and how hot they get so for a 70 amp alternator: 70 x 13.5 (sort of charging volatge when bulk charging) = 945 Watts. 945 Watts divided by 746 (746 Watts = 1 hp) = 1.27 hp and times 3 (assuming a 33.3% efficiency) = 3.8 hp drawn from engine.

 

Of course many boats have smaller alternators but also may have larger ones. Once the alternator gets towards the absorption phase the power required will be much less but we are still only talking less than 10hp in total. This low power requirement is why I think inland boats are a very unique case as far as lubrication is concerned and that we can not extrapolate from experience with vehicles to decide what happens.

[churchward]

| agree it is an unusual circumstance with boat engines particularly on canals and it is not always true to say what is good for one use is good for another. However there are some common factors here too these engines must obey the physical properties they have and the metals they are made of and the chemical transitions, conversations and products of the burning of the fossil fuel.

[sentinel]

Just a quick clarification, if I may.

 

Not all shunting locos work very hard, some sites were regarded as a home for poorly locos. Some literally started up, drew the train forward a couple of wagon lengths through the dock for unloading then were shut down again (the battery problems this caused are another matter...). Then in half an hour or an hour the process was repeated, the loco spent longer building up air than actualy moving the train. Then you had to combat the issue with air-motor start loco's in refineries, where once started to move the morning train under the gantry they would often be left to idle all day untill it was time to send the train out again in the evening; it was an uphill battle trying to convince drivers they would re-start if shut down (after you had sorted out years of poor maintenance you had inherited).

 

Oil changes were normally at 200 hours for main engines and where they were fitted at a 100 hours for the little donkey engines used to drive some retro-fit train air brake compressors. These were often 4 pot Perkins to start with and later some transmogrified into three cylinder Kubotas, (thats when we found out the flywheels and starter motors were different between the 24v and 12v ones - after we tried to convert a 12v one to 24v - ooops) both started to show gellatification (is that a real word?) if you tried to run them at 200 hours betwen oil changes - regardless of the oil used, even the gold plated stuff! In the end we started to move towards hydrostatic drive to remove the hassle of the donkey's. Hour counting did vary a bit, Rolls and English Electric had mechanical counters that in effect counted engine revolutions, other had electronic counters wired to the ETR (Engine To Run - an inverse "stop" solenoid if you like which is energised to open up the pumps fuel supply).

 

Regards.

[Scruffyjake]

I used to work with high speed Heavy duty gear boxes, They used to run at 10,000 to 50000 revs per min.under heavy loads

We had Castrol come down and demonstrate good and cheap oils.

The premium oils stood up to pressure, heat and speed far better than the cheap ones which broke down relativly quickly.

I would allways reccomend good oil, after all as a previos post said it only costs about a £1:00 a week.

[alvicchas1]

Greetings All

 

WOW opened a can of worms with this one.

 

Thanks for all the interesting replies.

[sharpness]

If it says that it is to a standard, then it is.

 

End of story.

 

 

If that were always the case then surely we wouldnt need the Trading Standards bods????

 

Steve

[nb Innisfree]

Somewhere I have a copy of an old Waterways World article that states a 60 ft narrowboat only needs two or three hp at canal speed of course the faster you go the power requirement get much higher.

 

I do not know how efficient our alternators actually are but from what I read about 30% is not unreasonable, especially when you see how much air they shift and how hot they get so for a 70 amp alternator: 70 x 13.5 (sort of charging volatge when bulk charging) = 945 Watts. 945 Watts divided by 746 (746 Watts = 1 hp) = 1.27 hp and times 3 (assuming a 33.3% efficiency) = 3.8 hp drawn from engine.

 

Of course many boats have smaller alternators but also may have larger ones. Once the alternator gets towards the absorption phase the power required will be much less but we are still only talking less than 10hp in total. This low power requirement is why I think inland boats are a very unique case as far as lubrication is concerned and that we can not extrapolate from experience with vehicles to decide what happens.

 

FWIW we have a LPWS4 with a 100A 24v alternator which needs to be manually excited, when I start up and engine is cold and engage the prop from 1400rpm the revs drop by the same amount as if I just excite the alternator which goes into full output (about 105A) this, according to the performance graph, uses around 6 BHP. Also I have noticed when I start from cold just to charge batts the warm up period is much faster if run at 1600+ RPM (about 30-40 mins) if I go straight to 1200 RPM it still hasn't reached operating temp after 2+ hours, same if I start cruising straight away at 1200RPM. I must add that our engine coolant is plumbed into the CH/calorifier circuit which does tend to delay warm up. Moral is, I suppose, to load engine but with plenty of revs (once it has run for a several mins to get oil well circulated)

[journeyperson]

I noticed this morning that Carlube are doing a 15w40 API CH-4 turbo diesel mineral oil which states on the label that it is " Suitable for diesel engines, both naturally aspirated and turbocharged. Also suitable for 4 stroke marine diesel engines".

 

I'm fairly sure the price on the shelf at B&Q was £12.98 for 5 litres but I've just seen on my receipt that I was charged £9.98 before discount.

 

Later in the morning I went into my local motor factors for an oil filter and had a look at the price he was charging for the Carlube Turbo Diesel and it was £12.95. But he also had an API CC mineral oil "specially formulated for older high mileage engines" This Route One oil was priced at £13.95 so must be a superior product to both the Turbo Diesel and the Daytona oils by Carlube.

 

I think it's interesting that more CC oils seem to be appearing and that an oil is being sold by Carlube as suitable for 4 stroke marine diesels. It may just be that I'm noticing them because I'm looking for them or it may be that the manufacturers are becoming aware of the market sector.

Edited October 6, 2010 by journeyperson