Not much sole!

[parasal]

The worst news most boat owners would dread to hear- after having boat bought out water to fix rudder it was found that my sole plate is completely pitted and eroded and needs to be replaced, about ten grands worth of work! As with many I simply do not have that kind of money lying around so will have to sell!

My question is whether to sell all the contents separately or all as one- It has a Kelvin J2 which is said to be worth a few quid, diesel genny, Esse range and the shell has a woolwich nutty front end! I realize that Apollo duck is littered with unfinished boats or ones that need substantial work and this tends to scare folk!

I would be grateful for any advice!

[RLWP]

The worst news most boat owners would dread to hear- after having boat bought out water to fix rudder it was found that my sole plate is completely pitted and eroded and needs to be replaced, about ten grands worth of work! As with many I simply do not have that kind of money lying around so will have to sell!

My question is whether to sell all the contents separately or all as one- It has a Kelvin J2 which is said to be worth a few quid, diesel genny, Esse range and the shell has a woolwich nutty front end! I realize that Apollo duck is littered with unfinished boats or ones that need substantial work and this tends to scare folk!

I would be grateful for any advice!

 

Wow! Is that the opinion of your surveyor, the complete rebottoming?

 

Richard

[parasal]

Wow! Is that the opinion of your surveyor, the complete rebottoming?

 

Richard

 

Well so far that's the view of the blacksmith, blacking man and surveyor by photo and phone call. Seems it may have been rogue electric from the genny-lots of silvery holes, some up to 4mm deep! Surveyor due out tomorrow but feel I need to explore options so I'm equipped to deal with it!

[mykaskin]

The worst news most boat owners would dread to hear- after having boat bought out water to fix rudder it was found that my sole plate is completely pitted and eroded and needs to be replaced, about ten grands worth of work! As with many I simply do not have that kind of money lying around so will have to sell!

My question is whether to sell all the contents separately or all as one- It has a Kelvin J2 which is said to be worth a few quid, diesel genny, Esse range and the shell has a woolwich nutty front end! I realize that Apollo duck is littered with unfinished boats or ones that need substantial work and this tends to scare folk!

I would be grateful for any advice!

 

What's its minimum thinkness? It was measured ultra sonically wasn't it, and not just someone going... "Oh look at that, it's all pitted and rusty under there!"

 

As I see from your post, it's not been measured yet, but if the plate was 8mm then a 4mm pit still leaves 4mm which is more than enough.

 

Mike

Edited August 4, 2010 by mykaskin

[Athy]

a woolwich nutty front end!

 

They are crazy, aren't they?

 

Seriously I should think that the Kelvin, if in good order, will be a very strong selling point, as will the historical interest of at least part of the hull. I knew a couple who advertised their boat for sale along the lines of "Gardner 4L2 surrounded by 42 foot trad" and sold it quite quickly. The range cooker will also enhance its appeal. So I'd say keep it in one piece.

But I am an amateur. We have some experienced professionals on this forum and I hope they will step forward to offer their advice. Could you post a photo of your boat? That might interest someone here who is boat-hunting.

[WotEver]

... lots of silvery holes, some up to 4mm deep!

Depending on how many of them, they can be filled with weld and then ground down to be slightly proud. I'm aware of a boat in our area that had that done last year, although to the sides of the hull, not the bottom plate.

 

Good lcuk with the surveyor.

 

Tony

[RLWP]

Well so far that's the view of the blacksmith, blacking man and surveyor by photo and phone call. Seems it may have been rogue electric from the genny-lots of silvery holes, some up to 4mm deep! Surveyor due out tomorrow but feel I need to explore options so I'm equipped to deal with it!

 

OK, wait until the surveyor has seen the boat, and try not to panic. We tried to work out the scrap value of Tawny Owl once after she scared the boatyard who were blacking her. The surveyor came up with a plan to fix the hull that cost £2500. Great relief and less sleepless nights all round!

 

Richard

[parasal]

What's its minimum thinkness? It was measured ultra sonically wasn't it, and not just someone going... "Oh look at that, it's all pitted and rusty under there!"

 

As I see from your post, it's not been measured yet, but if the plate was 8mm then a 4mm pit still leaves 4mm which is more than enough.

 

Mike

Hi Mike

It looks like the original plate was 1/4 " which won't leave enough.

I agree what you are saying and I am not panicking-just trying to be prepared for any outcome, but it is all over the base plate and is a lot worse than when she had her survey last year to buy it!

 

They are crazy, aren't they?

 

Seriously I should think that the Kelvin, if in good order, will be a very strong selling point, as will the historical interest of at least part of the hull. I knew a couple who advertised their boat for sale along the lines of "Gardner 4L2 surrounded by 42 foot trad" and sold it quite quickly. The range cooker will also enhance its appeal. So I'd say keep it in one piece.

But I am an amateur. We have some experienced professionals on this forum and I hope they will step forward to offer their advice. Could you post a photo of your boat? That might interest someone here who is boat-hunting.

Sorry! On sisters I-pad which is impossible to work without it spell checking automatically- should read butty !

Like the sales pitch- may have to copy if it comes to that!

[churchward]

The worst news most boat owners would dread to hear- after having boat bought out water to fix rudder it was found that my sole plate is completely pitted and eroded and needs to be replaced, about ten grands worth of work! As with many I simply do not have that kind of money lying around so will have to sell!

My question is whether to sell all the contents separately or all as one- It has a Kelvin J2 which is said to be worth a few quid, diesel genny, Esse range and the shell has a woolwich nutty front end! I realize that Apollo duck is littered with unfinished boats or ones that need substantial work and this tends to scare folk!

I would be grateful for any advice!

I don't know the actual value of the Kelvin but if in good condition it will be worth a fair wedge I think. However, I would doubt that breaking a boat into it's component parts will raise more cash than the whole boat sold. Selling the engine for instance will take off the value a similar amount to the remaining boat.

 

I think as others have said a proper survey will be worth it (unless the corrosion is so bad to be obvious) and use that to get several quotes you never know it may turn out better than you think on price. Of course if you can't afford the repairs there is not much choice but to sell but the hull condition will badly effect the price of course.

 

I remember your boat from seeing it on the cut near Brinklow and seeing the advert on the selling agents website. It is a good looking boat and an interesting history/fit-out. It would be a shame to sell it or worse yet break it up and sell the interior.

 

I feel for you as I can only imagine how depressing such news would be to me. Good luck and I hope a happier solution can be found.

[soldthehouse]

Just a small point but where does the £10000 come from. Even if the whole bottom needs doing 4mtr x 2mtr x 10mm plate is only around £450 per plate at the moment, thats an awful lot of labour even with out and back charges.

[OldGoldy]

Just a small point but where does the £10000 come from. Even if the whole bottom needs doing 4mtr x 2mtr x 10mm plate is only around £450 per plate at the moment, thats an awful lot of labour even with out and back charges.

 

Agreed.

 

Unfortunately some boatyards exist only to scr*w you out of your well-earned. They'll catch you once but don't get the return

business , whilst others can make reasonable charges and you would be happy to go back, time & time again.

 

Parasal - there is a 'ray of light' - look out for PM

[parasal]

Just a small point but where does the £10000 come from. Even if the whole bottom needs doing 4mtr x 2mtr x 10mm plate is only around £450 per plate at the moment, thats an awful lot of labour even with out and back charges.

 

Would have to be 4 x 2 1/2 m and at least 5 of them so that's where a deal of the cost comes;I do know the boat yard and they have encouraged me to get other quotes and until the surveyor comes back with report it is still hearsay, but I do thank you for your concern!

Everything crossed for tomorrow!

[jonk]

Would have to be 4 x 2 1/2 m and at least 5 of them so that's where a deal of the cost comes;I do know the boat yard and they have encouraged me to get other quotes and until the surveyor comes back with report it is still hearsay, but I do thank you for your concern!

Everything crossed for tomorrow!

 

But 5 plates at around 500 per plate is 2500 - surely not 7500 labour?

 

John

[luctor et emergo]

But 5 plates at around 500 per plate is 2500 - surely not 7500 labour?

 

John

 

No, but how do you replate the bottom? Simply lay the plates on the ground, and lower the boat on top? (£200 + for crane X 2. Welding rods plus labour )

 

Drydock and offer plates up from underneath?

 

Can the bottom be overplated, or will the existing bottom need to be cut away?

[parasal]

It doesn't sound very likely that this pitting has all appeared since last year. If there was even moderate pitting when you had the pre-purchase survey it should have been pointed out at the time!

 

Scrapping or breaking up the boat sounds a pretty desparate measure, particularly given the original front end and the engine. You don't necessarily have to replace or overplate the whole bottom. Many boats have pitting and thin plate. The worst bits can be patched or individual pits filled with weld. If you (and your insurers) can live with it you might do much better just accepting that there will be a continuing need to keep patching the bottom every few years.

 

David

I agree it does sound drastic but I am only exploring options-it's not only the money; added weight and depth on a deep hull and a shallow canal would make travelling more challenging and there is always the amount of the inside that has be taken out to undertake the work.....early days and hopefully I am over-reacting!

As you mentioned there may also be a claim on the original surveyor!

sally

[magpie patrick]

No, but how do you replate the bottom? Simply lay the plates on the ground, and lower the boat on top? (£200 + for crane X 2. Welding rods plus labour )

 

Drydock and offer plates up from underneath?

 

Can the bottom be overplated, or will the existing bottom need to be cut away?

 

you turn the boat over and then it's a doddle

 

If you replate the whole bottom, I understand the technique is to create a new baseplate first, then lower the boat onto it and weld it on

[churchward]

I agree it does sound drastic but I am only exploring options-it's not only the money; added weight and depth on a deep hull and a shallow canal would make travelling more challenging and there is always the amount of the inside that has be taken out to undertake the work.....early days and hopefully I am over-reacting!

As you mentioned there may also be a claim on the original surveyor!

sally

 

If they add the new base plate to what is already there it will be heavier and sit lower in the water for sure but there should be some removable ballast under the floor so you are likely to be able to compensate for the extra weight by taking some of this out.

[JohnO]

I think the baseplate is the original ¼"dating back to 1974 when Malcolm Braine gluded it all together. I had a survey carried out by Malcolm on Ganymede [Adarastea] approx 7-8 years ago. I saw pitting then, not 4mm but definite pitting. Barry Hawkins was commissioned to replace the wooden top. [The money would have better spent replating the bottom if you ask me]. So it sat around in a basin for nearly two years whilst this work was carried out, with all Hawkins liveaboard's, all I assume on landlines. Once it left Hawkin's, [that's a story in itself] the owner just never really used it. To my knowledge it was blacked maybe 2008. Before that I would guess at least not after 2002 and probably quite a while before that. So it could have spent 6-10+ years with no hull maintance or blacking. I could not believe the hull received any attention whilst at Hawkin's. £10,000 pales if you knew how much money has been spent on this boat. But that's what you get when you don't know what you are doing and listen to the wrong people and get the wrong people to do the work. Hope you have better luck.

How do you get on with the Esse?

[parasal]

I think the baseplate is the original ¼"dating back to 1974 when Malcolm Braine gluded it all together. I had a survey carried out by Malcolm on Ganymede [Adarastea] approx 7-8 years ago. I saw pitting then, not 4mm but definite pitting. Barry Hawkins was commissioned to replace the wooden top. [The money would have better spent replating the bottom if you ask me]. So it sat around in a basin for nearly two years whilst this work was carried out, with all Hawkins liveaboard's, all I assume on landlines. Once it left Hawkin's, [that's a story in itself] the owner just never really used it. To my knowledge it was blacked maybe 2008. Before that I would guess at least not after 2002 and probably quite a while before that. So it could have spent 6-10+ years with no hull maintance or blacking. I could not believe the hull received any attention whilst at Hawkin's. £10,000 pales if you knew how much money has been spent on this boat. But that's what you get when you don't know what you are doing and listen to the wrong people and get the wrong people to do the work. Hope you have better luck.

How do you get on with the Esse?

Don't look much like it!

What was your in-put with the boat? I have all the receipts so I fully appreciate the money spent on it and following my survey a year ago certainly didn't expect to have to spend this much on it and therefore have not budgeted for it, which may result in me loosing her- a very hard lesson!

The Esse is hot, beautiful, useless as an oven but love the hotplates!

Cheers, Sally

 

But 5 plates at around 500 per plate is 2500 - surely not 7500 labour?

 

John

Is my guy so far off ghat he can only get 5x2.5 sheets for around a grand a piece?

[soldthehouse]

Don't look much like it!

What was your in-put with the boat? I have all the receipts so I fully appreciate the money spent on it and following my survey a year ago certainly didn't expect to have to spend this much on it and therefore have not budgeted for it, which may result in me loosing her- a very hard lesson!

The Esse is hot, beautiful, useless as an oven but love the hotplates!

Cheers, Sally

 

 

Is my guy so far off ghat he can only get 5x2.5 sheets for around a grand a piece?

The price is worked out on a tonnage rate. If he's a regular buyer he will be getting a good rate. My supplier is corrently charging me £700 ton. 10mm plate is 78.2 kg sq metre. for my 4x2 simple maths gives £438. Ita all pro rata if you use thinner plate the price will reduce directly proportionately and if larger the same applies. 6mm plate weighs 47.1 kg per sq mtr so a 4x2.5 in 6mm is £329.70 unlees my calcs are wrong.

Edited August 4, 2010 by soldthehouse

[Trix]

The price is worked out on a tonnage rate. If he's a regular buyer he will be getting a good rate. My supplier is corrently charging me £700 ton. 10mm plate is 78.2 kg sq metre. for my 4x2 simple maths gives £438. Ita all pro rata if you use thinner plate the price will reduce directly proportionately and if larger the same applies. 6mm plate weighs 47.1 kg per sq mtr so a 4x2.5 in 6mm is £329.70 unlees my calcs are wrong.

 

Based on those figures what is the material costs for my 27ft springer 4mm plate complete plating have been quoted £4000 plus vat to do the work inc materials.

 

its sad to hear that a boat may be broken but you never know it may not be as bad as you think mine is though but fortunately i knew and budgeted for it when buying fingers crossed for you

[jonk]

Looks to me as though at least one more quote will be needed!

Good luck with your final decision though.

 

John

[Timleech]

The price is worked out on a tonnage rate. If he's a regular buyer he will be getting a good rate. My supplier is corrently charging me £700 ton. 10mm plate is 78.2 kg sq metre. for my 4x2 simple maths gives £438. Ita all pro rata if you use thinner plate the price will reduce directly proportionately and if larger the same applies. 6mm plate weighs 47.1 kg per sq mtr so a 4x2.5 in 6mm is £329.70 unlees my calcs are wrong.

 

At that rate the OP's 2.5 x 5 would be £685 in 10mm thickness, the last steel I bought cost me £800/tonne which would make it £780 (or £916 inc. VAT) & I'd expect his guy to want at least a small markup.

Two men for 3 weeks would eat up the £7500 at a fairly modest yard rate of £30/hour, or reduce the time and add in lifting or docking charges, then there's all the cutting, welding and grinding supplies which will be several hundreds.

 

If doubling the existing bottom, the old and new should be plug welded together at intervals. It may well be that the existing is too thin at the edges to weld to directly, so more work has to be done on the chine. Etc Etc...., these jobs are never as simple as they might at first appear.

 

I'm not trying to justify the quote, but it's not hard to see how it's arrived at.

 

Tim

Edited August 4, 2010 by Timleech

[JohnO]

Don't look much like it!

What was your in-put with the boat? I have all the receipts so I fully appreciate the money spent on it and following my survey a year ago certainly didn't expect to have to spend this much on it and therefore have not budgeted for it, which may result in me loosing her- a very hard lesson!

The Esse is hot, beautiful, useless as an oven but love the hotplates!

Cheers, Sally

 

"Don't look much like it" what doe's?

"What was your in-put with the boat?" I found the boat, I paid for the survey. I negotiated the price. Then my relationship with the boat ended! I have photograph's from before the new cabin if you wish them, probably not the best of timing but..

Do you now have gas onboard to cook?

[BEngo]

The worst news most boat owners would dread to hear- after having boat bought out water to fix rudder it was found that my sole plate is completely pitted and eroded and needs to be replaced, about ten grands worth of work! As with many I simply do not have that kind of money lying around so will have to sell!

My question is whether to sell all the contents separately or all as one- It has a Kelvin J2 which is said to be worth a few quid, diesel genny, Esse range and the shell has a woolwich nutty front end! I realize that Apollo duck is littered with unfinished boats or ones that need substantial work and this tends to scare folk!

I would be grateful for any advice!

 

 

Not much onthe helpful advice front, but do price the job from several boatyards- include Roger Farrington at Braunston slip as he has much experience in re-bottoming. He has just done Satellite- another ME Braine conversion.

 

On a slightly different note, if you would like some history around your J2's cylinders, liners, pistons and heads PM me. For my part I'd like to know how they are doing.

 

N