Cold 'Hot Water'

[NB Alnwick]

Well, I finally got fed up with the water from the hot tap coming out cold or, at best luke-warm, so I trundled off to Midland Chandlers and bought myself a new Morco water heater - which is now installed!

 

To be honest the results are only slightly better (the water output is now 45 degrees C at maximum settings) but at least I now know that if I want to find further improvements, I will have to look elsewhere because the water heater is not faulty - the water pressure/flow is more than adequate so perhaps the gas supply is at fault - is the pressure is too low? The Morco engineers apparently think this can be a problem when running the water heater off a single 13 kg. Propane cylinder - but these haven't given us a problem in the past so my next task will be to replace the orange flexible gas hose which is probably due for replacement anyway and replace the gas regulator at the same time.

 

Examination of the old water heater seems to indicate that there is no a lot wrong with it apart from the water inlet filter being partially clogged. That would explain the improved flow now that the new appliance has been installed.

 

So I now have a complete used Morco D61E - going cheap if anyone wants to take it off my hands . . .

 

Some earlier topics about Morco water heaters can be found at the following links:

 

http://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=29137

 

http://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=18210

 

http://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=27000

[WotEver]

... is the pressure is too low? The Morco engineers apparently think this can be a problem when running the water heater off a single 13 kg. Propane cylinder...

Graham, when we had a new boiler fitted at home the British Gas installers said that it wouldn't be happy running off the existing 15mm gas feed, so they capped that off and ran a new 30mm feed all the way from the meter to the boiler. I know nothing about fluid flow and so I asked them how a bigger pipe would give higher pressure. It wouldn't, they explained, it would give a greater flow.

 

So... I'm wondering if rather than too low a pressure you have too low a flow and need a larger bore gas pipe feeding the Morco?

 

I'll now await the gas experts to tell me what a load of bo**ox I've just written

 

Cheers,

Tony

[alan_fincher]

The Morco's manual is quite specific about what the measured pressure should be at (I think) two test points on it when it is running.

 

You can easily measure this with a simple home grown manometer, (ours was nothing more than a bit of clear tube attached with pipe clips to a lump of old pallet we had pulled out the canal a few days previously. Doesn't need to be calibrated in any way, just have a "horse-shoe" with water in so that you can measure a difference in levels once the pressure is there, (which will not exceed somewhere just under 15" water gauge, unless there is some kind of problem.

 

My take on it is that if you have the pressures that Morco say you should have at the inlet and at the burners, there is not much wrong with the gas supply.

 

Unless you are running anything else off it simultaneously 1/2" pipe should be more than adequate for this - you can't realistically fit anything fatter on a boat, anyway.

 

Now awaits the professionals to tell me why some of that is wrong!

[NB Alnwick]

The Morco's manual is quite specific about what the measured pressure should be at (I think) two test points on it when it is running.

 

You can easily measure this with a simple home grown manometer, (ours was nothing more than a bit of clear tube attached with pipe clips to a lump of old pallet we had pulled out the canal a few days previously. Doesn't need to be calibrated in any way, just have a "horse-shoe" with water in so that you can measure a difference in levels once the pressure is there, (which will not exceed somewhere just under 15" water gauge, unless there is some kind of problem.

 

My take on it is that if you have the pressures that Morco say you should have at the inlet and at the burners, there is not much wrong with the gas supply.

 

Unless you are running anything else off it simultaneously 1/2" pipe should be more than adequate for this - you can't realistically fit anything fatter on a boat, anyway.

 

Now awaits the professionals to tell me why some of that is wrong!

 

Interesting - Alnwick's copper gas pipes look to be smaller than 1/2" - I think they are 3/8".

 

Nevertheless, we used to get plenty of hot water and, unless someone came along and changed the gas pipes while we were asleep, this does not necessarily explain why we are not getting it now . . .

[alan_fincher]

Interesting - Alnwick's copper gas pipes look to be smaller than 1/2" - I think they are 3/8".

 

Nevertheless, we used to get plenty of hot water and, unless someone came along and changed the gas pipes while we were asleep, this does not necessarily explain why we are not getting it now . . .

I'm not saying you need 1/2" pipe - 3/8 may well be enough. As it depends on the length of the run you would need to do some calclations.

 

I was more responding to the point about a gas supply in a house having to be upgraded for a new boiler. The power of a typical domestic boiler is massively more than a Morco, so not surprising it needs a bigger pipe.

 

I have to say we are not in a massively different place to you. Frustrated in failing to get our D51B to working properly again, I did a replacement with a brand new D61B. It's OK-ish, but I still struggle to convince myself that it is performing as well as Morco's figures say it should.

 

But we almost never use it, since I put a Calorifier in, so I've never put a lot more effort into it.

 

It has to be said that "working to spec" if you are starting with fairly cold water, these things are never going to deliver a high volume, steaming, power shower - they are simply not designed to burn gas that fast.

 

But like you, we feel we "used to do better". Our gas supply is fine on a manometer test, and the water passes through it at the prescribed rate, so it's still a bit of a mystery.

 

Something to do with volcanic, ash, perhaps ?

[WotEver]

Something to do with volcanic, ash, perhaps ?

Either that or fatigue cracks on the steel shell

[MoominPapa]

You can easily measure this with a simple home grown manometer, (ours was nothing more than a bit of clear tube attached with pipe clips to a lump of old pallet we had pulled out the canal a few days previously. Doesn't need to be calibrated in any way, just have a "horse-shoe" with water in so that you can measure a difference in levels once the pressure is there, (which will not exceed somewhere just under 15" water gauge, unless there is some kind of problem.

Seconded. I have a similar homemade device. Anyone who doesn't have a bubble tester fitted should have one of these to do regular leak tests on their boat's gas system.

 

MP.

 

Edited to add: mine's even more agricultural than Alan's. The pipe is held to the board with bent nails!

Edited May 18, 2010 by MoominPapa

[frangar]

Something to do with volcanic, ash, perhaps ?

 

 

Surely its to do with the new eco friendly low carbon Propane..........

 

Cheers

 

Gareth

[paulcatchpole]

I'm not saying you need 1/2" pipe - 3/8 may well be enough. As it depends on the length of the run you would need to do some calclations.

 

Alan's right, but best to check the burner pressure at the Morco.

 

LPG can run on significantly smaller pipes than natural gas, lots more pressure for a start.

 

We've got a 12kw gas boiler on the boat, on LPG, on a 10mm pipe of about 4m length, possibly more, with four bends, and its burner pressure is fine at full output... No other appliances on the pipe, mind. That's not a recommendation either, but just an example!

 

The other boat has about 9m of 10mm pipe, quite a few bends and (necessary) couplings, running 5kw of hob+oven plus the Morco, and the Morco is still fine with everything running flat out.

 

PC

[RobinJ]

Well, I finally got fed up with the water from the hot tap coming out cold or, at best luke-warm, so I trundled off to Midland Chandlers and bought myself a new Morco water heater - which is now installed!

 

To be honest the results are only slightly better (the water output is now 45 degrees C at maximum settings) but at least I now know that if I want to find further improvements, I will have to look elsewhere because the water heater is not faulty - the water pressure/flow is more than adequate so perhaps the gas supply is at fault - is the pressure is too low?

These heaters are supposed to operate by controling the gas and water flow to meet the demand, so if your getting enough flow and the burners working as expected, it would appear the solution lies in the rest of the system?

The inlet temperature may vary by about 10C and at maximum you might get 70-80C out of it, so when you say its now 45C, is that at the Morco outlet?

If so then there may be a gas flow problem, how old is the regulator? they can furr up!What size of supply pipes are there 5/16", 3/8" or 1/8"? Could one of the gas pipes have got crushed somewhere?

If its at a distance, then has the water an opportunity to loose heat, is it run close to the hull?

 

Ideally I suppose you could do to run it on a different gas supply and see if the waters hotter?

[n.b.Goldie]

Not something like an isolator tap being partially turned off (or on depending on optimism/pessimism)?

[NB Alnwick]

These heaters are supposed to operate by controling the gas and water flow to meet the demand, so if your getting enough flow and the burners working as expected, it would appear the solution lies in the rest of the system?

The inlet temperature may vary by about 10C and at maximum you might get 70-80C out of it, so when you say its now 45C, is that at the Morco outlet?

If so then there may be a gas flow problem, how old is the regulator? they can furr up!What size of supply pipes are there 5/16", 3/8" or 1/8"? Could one of the gas pipes have got crushed somewhere?

If its at a distance, then has the water an opportunity to loose heat, is it run close to the hull?

 

Ideally I suppose you could do to run it on a different gas supply and see if the waters hotter?

 

The supply pipe is 3/8" and it tees off just after the cylinders with one branch (about five metres long) serving the Morco and the gas fridge - the latter is currently empty and turned off - the other branch serves the cooker and Jane now thinks that the gas rings on the cooker do not burn as fiercly as they once did and the kettle takes longer to boil. I went to Midland Chandlers again today to buy some new Hep2o fittings and I also looked at the range of gas regulators but did not buy one. I may try the home made manometer route first.

 

Our gas regulator is about ten years old - if I replace it, is there a preferred or recommended brand/model?

[alan_fincher]

Our gas regulator is about ten years old - if I replace it, is there a preferred or recommended brand/model?

It doesn't have to be anything elaborate, but what matters is how it connects.

 

Some go straight onto the cylinder, so have the standard Propane cylinder connector on the end, but assuming you already have some kind of manual or automatic change-over valve with pigtails for the cylinder, that's not the type you'll need, obviously.

 

Something from here should suit, but you need to match to where it sits in your current "plumbing"....

 

BES Low Pressure LPG Regulators

 

It needn't cost much over a fiver, (but BES prices don't include VAT, and carriage is extra on small orders).

 

Capacity is rarely an issue in boat installations - even a "4 Kg" regulator can throughput the complete contents of a 13KG cylinder in less than 4 hours - your Morco shouldn't be placing that kinds of demands on your gas!

 

I'm also curious that you mentioned "orange hose" earlier. If it's in the "high pressure" side, (i.e. before the regulator), I've a feeling it can be a BSS fail, if it's just made up with jubilee clips. I seem to recall pigtails must only be a complete manufactured unit, and you should not use something you have just made up - but check - I may be remembering wrong!

[NB Alnwick]

It doesn't have to be anything elaborate, but what matters is how it connects.

 

Some go straight onto the cylinder, so have the standard Propane cylinder connector on the end, but assuming you already have some kind of manual or automatic change-over valve with pigtails for the cylinder, that's not the type you'll need, obviously.

 

Something from here should suit, but you need to match to where it sits in your current "plumbing"....

 

BES Low Pressure LPG Regulators

 

It needn't cost much over a fiver, (but BES prices don't include VAT, and carriage is extra on small orders).

 

Capacity is rarely an issue in boat installations - even a "4 Kg" regulator can throughput the complete contents of a 13KG cylinder in less than 4 hours - your Morco shouldn't be placing that kinds of demands on your gas!

 

I'm also curious that you mentioned "orange hose" earlier. If it's in the "high pressure" side, (i.e. before the regulator), I've a feeling it can be a BSS fail, if it's just made up with jubilee clips. I seem to recall pigtails must only be a complete manufactured unit, and you should not use something you have just made up - but check - I may be remembering wrong!

 

Our gas storage and connection regime is extremely primitive err, simple. The regulator with its attached pressure gauge screws directly onto the cylinder - we carry four cylinders and as we use gas for all our cooking, each one lasts about three weeks - then it always runs out on a cold wet morning when I am planning or hoping for a nice hot cup of coffee while still in my pyjamas! Changing them over is a pain!

 

However, I am not keen on the more sophisticated systems - we had complex changeover valves on the Restaurant and Buffet Cars on the Great Central Railway (where four 13 kg Propane cylinders would last little more than six hours) and they were often a source of difficulty - imagine the gas supply suddenly going off when you are trying to serve 84 coffees at 25 mph!

[alan_fincher]

However, I am not keen on the more sophisticated systems - we had complex changeover valves on the Restaurant and Buffet Cars on the Great Central Railway (where four 13 kg Propane cylinders would last little more than six hours) and they were often a source of difficulty - imagine the gas supply suddenly going off when you are trying to serve 84 coffees at 25 mph!

 

Having once travelled on a freezing cold train on the GCR on a snowy day, leading up to a New Year, where the buffet staff was not able to produce one hot drink on the first round trip from Loughborough, I don't know whether I feel sympathetic with their plight or not, but had a lot of sympathy for those on the train!

 

I always try and preach tolerance on preserved lines when things are not running smoothly, pointing out to people that they rely on willing volunteers, doing their best. But on that occasion the crew were not very "Christmassy", and quite surly when we came back after giving them considerably more time than they had told us we should go back after.

 

Had it not been Flying Scotsman, I feel even I could have lost a love of preserved railways that day, particularly with two toddlers in tow.

 

(I bet you miss all that - don't you!).

 

Back on topic - I don't think you would go far wrong with a manual change-over valve. OK you have to turn out on a cold morning long enough to throw the valve, but nothing like as bad as faffing with spanners in sub-zero conditions. Obviously it requires the discipline to go and get an exchange for an exhausted cylinder as soon as you can, but that's not really any different from exchanging the "empty" you would have in your current arrangements.

 

We used to have what you currently do, and I think the small effort of upgrading to a manual change-over has made life a lot easier if the gas runs out at silly times. About forty quid for complete kit, of changeover valve, regulator, cut off valve, mounting plate, and pigtails containing the obligatory non-return valves.

 

I wouldn't touch an automatic one though - I'm a control freak!

[NB Alnwick]

 

Having once travelled on a freezing cold train on the GCR on a snowy day, leading up to a New Year, where the buffet staff was not able to produce one hot drink on the first round trip from Loughborough, I don't know whether I feel sympathetic with their plight or not, but had a lot of sympathy for those on the train!

 

I always try and preach tolerance on preserved lines when things are not running smoothly, pointing out to people that they rely on willing volunteers, doing their best. But on that occasion the crew were not very "Christmassy", and quite surly when we came back after giving them considerably more time than they had told us we should go back after.

 

Had it not been Flying Scotsman, I feel even I could have lost a love of preserved railways that day, particularly with two toddlers in tow.

 

(I bet you miss all that - don't you!).

 

I miss some bits - but I well remember when Jane and I had to babysit the kitchen car in sub zero temperatures - all night one Christmas Eve so that we could be sure that it didn't freeze - there were others babysitting the engines and keeping fires burning to stop the injectors from freezing. I can only apologise for the problems you experienced - if it was Flying Scotsman's first visit (in 1991 or thereabouts) then I would have been responsible but that was before I had shaken up the catering department - the 'surly staff' were quietly re-allocated elsewhere before 1994/5. If it was on one of Scotsmen's subsequent visits between 1995 and 2005 then something must have been badly wrong because at that time we had reliable staff and reliable equipment - in fact I often took turns in the 'Griddle Car' or Kitchen Car myself.

 

You may be interested to learn that my cheeky negotiations with Flying Scotsman Enterprises, in the days when Bernard Staite was 'the man', resulted in that engine's first ever visit to a heritage railway that was not rail connected - I even managed to persuade him to let us use it on 'Drive a Train' experience trips. After it had made that classic appearance at the GCR, other heritage railways were clambering all over FSE to get a share of the action - but we were the first! I even arranged for it to take the last train of the day out of Loughborough double headed with 'Blue Peter' - something that may not be seen again for a very long time and I can remember watching them setting of just after dark with Michael Draper (then GM of the SVR) standing beside me! Of course, this wasn't the first time those engines had run over the line - as 60103, 'Flying Scotsman' was one of six similar engines that were allocated to Leicester GC after the Second World War to haul the accelerated express services between Manchester, Sheffield and London Marylebone. These included 'The South Yorkshireman' and 'The Master Cutler'. Engines were changed at Leicester which was usually the principal intermediate station for such trains. 'Flying Scotsman' must have looked a real picture after nationalisation in its new line blue blue livery with a matching rake of Gresley coaches in Carmine & Cream. 'Blue Peter' only made an occasional foray over the GC line at the head of the occasional special excursion in connection with events at Wembley Stadium. Of course all this changed when the GC line was handed over to the London Midland Region where there were still senior officers in post at Derby who hated the GC's very existence for daring to challenge the Midland Railway on its home ground.

 

 

Back on topic - I don't think you would go far wrong with a manual change-over valve. OK you have to turn out on a cold morning long enough to throw the valve, but nothing like as bad as faffing with spanners in sub-zero conditions. Obviously it requires the discipline to go and get an exchange for an exhausted cylinder as soon as you can, but that's not really any different from exchanging the "empty" you would have in your current arrangements.

 

We used to have what you currently do, and I think the small effort of upgrading to a manual change-over has made life a lot easier if the gas runs out at silly times. About forty quid for complete kit, of changeover valve, regulator, cut off valve, mounting plate, and pigtails containing the obligatory non-return valves.

 

I wouldn't touch an automatic one though - I'm a control freak!

 

It was the automatic changeover valves that always gave us trouble.

[Biggles]

Not read the whole thread, but heres my 2 penneth.

 

My Morco 6L something or other produces water so hot its dangerous. The gas main is 10mm and about 25feet from the 13kg propane bottle. The pump is 2 bar and is 1.5m from the kitchen and bathroom taps. The shower is thermostatic and is never too cold.

 

Based on this I put a Morco 6L something or other in my motorhome project, but this time the gas main is 8mm but the distances are much shorter. But it works just fine. MH is 1 bar.

 

Hope this is of some use.

 

Biggles

[DHutch]

We had to replace our gas reg for the bss last time round as it was giving out too low a pressure. Apparently its not uncommon for them to do so at age. Ours was about 16yo.

 

 

Daniel

[NBMike]

I fitted an auto changeover valve on someones Park home (auto at their request) It failed after about 8 months (OPSO Kept locking out) While 'in depth' reading the instructions for the replacement I noticed it only has a 3 years expected life!

Mike

[MtB]

The supply pipe is 3/8" and it tees off just after the cylinders with one branch (about five metres long) serving the Morco and the gas fridge - the latter is currently empty and turned off - the other branch serves the cooker and Jane now thinks that the gas rings on the cooker do not burn as fiercly as they once did and the kettle takes longer to boil.

 

 

That's a pretty big clue suggesting a regulator problem. The water heater is almost certainly running at similarly reduced performance.

 

The gas supply pipe also seems intuitively too small to deliver 37mBar (less 3mBar max allowable pressure drop over the pipe) to the water heater but if it worked well once, it should work just as well now all other things being equal.

 

 

I went to Midland Chandlers again today to buy some new Hep2o fittings and I also looked at the range of gas regulators but did not buy one. I may try the home made manometer route first.

 

Given the low cost and ease of fitting them I'd suggest changing the regulator anyway rather than messing about rigging up a DIY manometer.

 

 

Our gas regulator is about ten years old - if I replace it, is there a preferred or recommended brand/model?

 

Needs changing anyway at that age! They have a designed life of ten years and replacement at 10 years is considered necessary even if still working.

 

Cheers, Mike

[NB Alnwick]

That's a pretty big clue suggesting a regulator problem. The water heater is almost certainly running at similarly reduced performance.

 

The gas supply pipe also seems intuitively too small to deliver 37mBar (less 3mBar max allowable pressure drop over the pipe) to the water heater but if it worked well once, it should work just as well now all other things being equal.

 

 

 

 

Given the low cost and ease of fitting them I'd suggest changing the regulator anyway rather than messing about rigging up a DIY manometer.

 

 

 

 

Needs changing anyway at that age! They have a designed life of ten years and replacement at 10 years is considered necessary even if still working.

 

Cheers, Mike

 

 

That all sounds like excellent advice - I shall get me a new regulator today!

[pithlit]

That all sounds like excellent advice - I shall get me a new regulator today!

 

Hi when we bought our new (to us) boat it had a gas fridge. We, eventually replaced it with a 12v fridge. When I removed the "tail" from the "T", to blank it off, I discovered that the connections had been put together using red hermatite. On looking closer I found that feed to the fridge was partially blocked with the hermatite. Could this be your problem?

[NB Alnwick]

Hi when we bought our new (to us) boat it had a gas fridge. We, eventually replaced it with a 12v fridge. When I removed the "tail" from the "T", to blank it off, I discovered that the connections had been put together using red hermatite. On looking closer I found that feed to the fridge was partially blocked with the hermatite. Could this be your problem?

 

There are indeed traces of Red Hermetite on my old gas line - these have now been removed.

 

Today has been interesting - most of the chandlers that I visited only stocked 5/16 flexble low pressure gas hose - I had to drive all the way over to Wharf House Narrow Boats at Braunston before I could find the correct size! The regulators sold by Tooleys, Midland Chandlers and Wharf House Narrow Boats were all in the region of £18 each - the cheaper ones that I saw at a Caravan parts supplier earlier in the day were made of die-cast 'monkey metal', were too small (outlet pipes varied from 1/4" to 5/16") and although the prices were attractive, ranging from £3 to £5, they wouldn't have lasted a week on 'Alnwick'.

[NB Alnwick]

Bingo! We now have hot water and plenty of it - the last piece of equipment to be changed was the Propane regulator and orange low pressure flexible hose.

 

Now, does anybody want to buy a Morco Water heater that has been replaced but may not have been faulty!

[WotEver]

Bingo! We now have hot water and plenty of it - the last piece of equipment to be changed was the Propane regulator and orange low pressure flexible hose.

 

Now, does anybody want to buy a Morco Water heater that has been replaced but may not have been faulty!

Graham, are you assuming therefore that the regulator was 'tired' and that was the cause of the fault? I'm assuming you changed the hoses simply because it was about time as opposed to noting any internal collapse?

 

Tony

 

Great news that it's sorted

 

I copied Richard's style