Need me a Gardner....?

[MtB]

Hello everyone,

 

A bit of advice please!

 

Having bought a boat 18 months ago with a Beta BD3 in it I've concluded I really should have bought a boat with a proper classic engine. The BD3 is a major improvement on the hair dryer engine in our last boat and I thought I'd be happy with it but I'm not. I want a classic two cylinder engine of some sort. Now changing boats is SUCH a major hassle with SO many expenses and delays that I think I'd prefer to change the engine rather than the whole boat - everything else about the boat is just fine and it took long enough to find this one!

 

Now our boat has a bit of a weight problem. The engine room is a bit too far back in the boat I think, and this, along with a long, slim swim seems to be the cause of the counter being almost 3" under water at rest with no ballast in the back apart from a few scraps of paving stone still left under the bedroom floor. This means a heavier engine than the BD3 is out of the question. The BD3 is listed on http://users.skynet.be/sky34301/engdata.html as weighing 1078 kg but I'm not sure if that includes the transmission. The Gardner 2LW appears to be about the only classic engine the same weight as the BD3 as far as I can see, so I think it has to be a 2LW. Or can anyone can suggest any other candidate engines?

 

And can anyone outline how a 2LW will differ from my BD3 in performance and behaviour? It appears to be lower power than the BD3 but will it still be adequate for a 68ft trad used regularly on the Thames?

 

We have a 21" diameter prop, believed to be between 19" and 21" pitch. Will this suit a 2LW or will I need a prop change too?

 

And finally does anyone here have a 2LW lying around they want to sell? (Unlikely I know, but I have to ask!)

 

Cheers, Mike

[casper ghost]

Surely the BD3 doesn't weigh that much...

Almost any other engine will be cheaper than a Gardner, which are very expensive and in my opinion no better than many other old engines. They are just the in thing at the moment.

Edited May 9, 2010 by casper ghost

[BEngo]

Surely the BD3 doesn't weigh that much...

Almost any other engine will be cheaper than a Gardner, which are very expensive and in my opinion no better than many other old engines. They are just the in thing at the moment.

 

I too would be surprised if it is 1087Kg (2391 lb) However, if it is then a Kelvin J2 might suit- they are lighter at 1294 lb dry weight and will give you 22HP at 1000rpm, with serious polishability built in. a 21 in blade is a bit big- I think 19x13 was the Kelvin standard and you might get away witha 20x13 on the cut.

Don't know how heavy a JP2 is, but probably at least as heavy as a Gardner 2LW \and the 2L2 is heavier than the LW (which I understand is shorthand for Light Weight).

 

You will need an engine space for any elderly engine soi as to be able to give it propert TLC and to show it off.

 

N

[casper ghost]

I too would be surprised if it is 1087Kg (2391 lb) However, if it is then a Kelvin J2 might suit- they are lighter at 1294 lb dry weight and will give you 22HP at 1000rpm, with serious polishability built in. a 21 in blade is a bit big- I think 19x13 was the Kelvin standard and you might get away witha 20x13 on the cut.

Don't know how heavy a JP2 is, but probably at least as heavy as a Gardner 2LW \and the 2L2 is heavier than the LW (which I understand is shorthand for Light Weight).

 

You will need an engine space for any elderly engine soi as to be able to give it propert TLC and to show it off.

 

N

 

I was joking about the weight, there is no way it's that heavy.. A Kelvin J2 would need a much bigger prop than the one on the BD3.

[charles123]

To answer a couple of questions, the 2LW is about half a ton plus the gearbox PRM250 about 70kg

You don't go into shop and buy off the shelf you have to order one to be reconditioned, try Martyn who posts on here (Marine Power Services) he will do you one, you can of course chose anther vintage engine eg Lister JP2 about the same price

Regarding ballasting just add atone to the front half to lift the stern

Performance wont be any worse than your current engine

 

Charles

[tom_c]

if you need a lighter weight engine, what about an aircooled engine like an armstrong as2 or similar, 20hp @1500rpm i know where there is one for sale pm me if you are interested. tom

[charles123]

To answer a couple of questions, the 2LW is about half a ton plus the gearbox PRM260 about 70kg

You don't go into shop and buy off the shelf you have to order one to be reconditioned, try Martyn who posts on here (Marine Power Services) he will do you one, you can of course chose anther vintage engine eg Lister JP2 about the same price

Regarding ballasting just add atone to the front half to lift the stern

Performance wont be any worse than your current engine

 

Charles

 

Quoted wrong gearbox its 260

[Gibbo]

To answer a couple of questions, the 2LW is about half a ton plus the gearbox PRM250 about 70kg

You don't go into shop and buy off the shelf you have to order one to be reconditioned, try Martyn who posts on here (Marine Power Services) he will do you one, you can of course chose anther vintage engine eg Lister JP2 about the same price

Regarding ballasting just add atone to the front half to lift the stern

Performance wont be any worse than your current engine

 

Charles

 

 

The 4LWs came with alloy crankcases or steel crankcases. The difference in weight between them is astonishing.

 

Does the same not apply to 2LWs?

Edited May 9, 2010 by Gibbo

[MtB]

I too would be surprised if it is 1087Kg (2391 lb) However, if it is then a Kelvin J2 might suit- they are lighter at 1294 lb dry weight and will give you 22HP at 1000rpm, with serious polishability built in. a 21 in blade is a bit big- I think 19x13 was the Kelvin standard and you might get away witha 20x13 on the cut.

Don't know how heavy a JP2 is, but probably at least as heavy as a Gardner 2LW \and the 2L2 is heavier than the LW (which I understand is shorthand for Light Weight).

 

You will need an engine space for any elderly engine soi as to be able to give it propert TLC and to show it off.

 

N

 

Apologies for confusing things, the BD3 weighs 1,078lb according to the link I gave, not 1,078kG. Doh! I've dug out the original engine spec that came with the boat and Beta Marine data sheet says it weighs 520kG (probably including the PRM160 transmission although it doesn't actually say), which is 1,146lb.

 

I also see the 2LW is listed on the engine database twice, once at 1,040lb for a 28hp/1,300rpm version, and 1,800lb for a 24hp/1,200rpam version. Are there really two versions of this engine that different in weight? The lighter version would be fine but there's no way we could use the 1,800lb version.

 

 

A Kelvin J2 would be LOVELY but from reading about Kelvins I suspect there might be difficulties installing a suitable propshaft. The Kelvin K series transmissions rely on prop thrust up the propshaft to keep them in gear I believe. Does this apply to the J series too? Could one be mated to something conventional like our PRM160?

 

And yes we have the engine room to show it off in, it's just a bit too near the back of the boat! The boatman's cabin is only about 5'6" long. Weird.

 

Cheers, Mike

[Gibbo]

I also see the 2LW is listed on the engine database twice, once at 1,040lb for a 28hp/1,300rpm version, and 1,800lb for a 24hp/1,200rpam version. Are there really two versions of this engine that different in weight? The lighter version would be fine but there's no way we could use the 1,800lb version.

 

Aha, that would be the steel or alloy crankcase (see my previous post)

[MtB]

To answer a couple of questions, the 2LW is about half a ton plus the gearbox PRM250 about 70kg

You don't go into shop and buy off the shelf you have to order one to be reconditioned, try Martyn who posts on here (Marine Power Services) he will do you one, you can of course chose anther vintage engine eg Lister JP2 about the same price

Regarding ballasting just add atone to the front half to lift the stern

Performance wont be any worse than your current engine

 

Charles

 

Thanks Charles.

 

1) I take it you mean the aluminium crackcase version is half a ton?

2) I am aware that I need to have one built to order. I'm currently doing my basic research as to the viability of the project. I'll choose a builder during the process I expect! The JP2 is even heavier at 2,140lb so not viable

3) There is no space left in the front of the boat to cram any more ballast in unless I change all the bricks into pig iron or something. More complication!

4) Worse? Performance of my current engine is BRILLIANT! I'll be amazed if a 2LW behaves the same or better!

 

 

Cheers, Mike

[martyn 1]

Aha, that would be the steel or alloy crankcase (see my previous post)

 

Gibbo is right, where you see two weights quoted on Gardner LW's for the same model then the heavier of the two is the cast iron crankcase version. although with the 2LW if my memory serves me correctly they were only available in cast iron version long after the rest of the range was available in either cast or aluminium. I think some of the very last of the production of 2LW's were aluminium. so the likelyhood of finding an aluminium one is fairly slim. all the 2LW's I have seen and worked on have been cast iron crankcase ones. Gardner weights sheet below hope it helps

 

Edited May 9, 2010 by martyn 1

[ditchcrawler]

Hello everyone,

 

A bit of advice please!

 

Having bought a boat 18 months ago with a Beta BD3 in it I've concluded I really should have bought a boat with a proper classic engine. The BD3 is a major improvement on the hair dryer engine in our last boat and I thought I'd be happy with it but I'm not. I want a classic two cylinder engine of some sort. Now changing boats is SUCH a major hassle with SO many expenses and delays that I think I'd prefer to change the engine rather than the whole boat - everything else about the boat is just fine and it took long enough to find this one!

 

Now our boat has a bit of a weight problem. The engine room is a bit too far back in the boat I think, and this, along with a long, slim swim seems to be the cause of the counter being almost 3" under water at rest with no ballast in the back apart from a few scraps of paving stone still left under the bedroom floor. This means a heavier engine than the BD3 is out of the question. The BD3 is listed on http://users.skynet.be/sky34301/engdata.html as weighing 1078 kg but I'm not sure if that includes the transmission. The Gardner 2LW appears to be about the only classic engine the same weight as the BD3 as far as I can see, so I think it has to be a 2LW. Or can anyone can suggest any other candidate engines?

 

And can anyone outline how a 2LW will differ from my BD3 in performance and behaviour? It appears to be lower power than the BD3 but will it still be adequate for a 68ft trad used regularly on the Thames?

 

We have a 21" diameter prop, believed to be between 19" and 21" pitch. Will this suit a 2LW or will I need a prop change too?

 

And finally does anyone here have a 2LW lying around they want to sell? (Unlikely I know, but I have to ask!)

 

Cheers, Mike

I have a BD3 and just checked the paperwork, it lists the shipping weights skid packing as

Nett weight Kg 490

Gross weight Kg 520

Volume M3 1.24

This is with the Newage PRM 160 box

[Timleech]

Gibbo is right, where you see two weights quoted on Gardner LW's for the same model then the heavier of the two is the cast iron crankcase version. although with the 2LW if my memory serves me correctly they were only available in cast iron version long after the rest of the range was available in either cast or aluminium. I think some of the very last of the production of 2LW's were aluminium. so the likelyhood of finding an aluminium one is fairly slim. all the 2LW's I have seen and worked on have been cast iron crankcase ones. Gardner weights sheet below hope it helps

 

Those weights will include the 2UC gearbox presumably, which must be getting on for 1/4 ton on its own in the cast iron version with reduction, as well as the very heavy 'proper' marine flywheel which is probably not present on many of the 2LW engines which have 'appeared' in recent years?

 

Tim

[MtB]

if you need a lighter weight engine, what about an aircooled engine like an armstrong as2 or similar, 20hp @1500rpm i know where there is one for sale pm me if you are interested. tom

 

 

Hi Tom,

 

Thanks for the suggestion but I'd prefer to stick with water cooled. Air cooling just doesn't seem right!

 

Cheers, Mike

[martyn 1]

Hi Tim, my above attached weight sheet is for the original Marine LW's with 2UC in either direct drive or with 2:1 or 3:1 reduction unit.

 

I wouldnt think your far off with the weight of the 2UC. I will have a hunt throught my paperwork to see if I can find what they are listed as in weight. If not might have to go and weight one in the yard.

 

As for flywheels most of the locomotive and genset units had a flywheel that was not exactly light so probably not far off the weight of the 'proper' marine ones. Although I have seen a couple of 2LW's with the very light automotive ones fitted to them!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.............

 

 

Those weights will include the 2UC gearbox presumably, which must be getting on for 1/4 ton on its own in the cast iron version with reduction, as well as the very heavy 'proper' marine flywheel which is probably not present on many of the 2LW engines which have 'appeared' in recent years?

 

Tim

Edited May 9, 2010 by martyn 1

[Athy]

When I ordered my 2LW from Walsh's of manchester I was offered the choice of cast or aluminium, so they are about.

But if you reckon that your BD3 is so fantastic, why change it?

[MtB]

When I ordered my 2LW from Walsh's of manchester I was offered the choice of cast or aluminium, so they are about.

 

Well that's encouraging, definitive proof that the 2LW WAS made with ally cranckcase. Perhaps I'll give Walsh a ring and see what availability is like. The ally one they offered you may just have been a fluke!

 

But if you reckon that your BD3 is so fantastic, why change it?

 

Probably the same reason as you decided to get a fifty year old Gardner and not a brand new BD3 or JD3... ;-)

 

But now I'm wondering about going the whole hog and seeking out a Kelvin J2....

 

Cheers, Mike

Edited May 10, 2010 by Mike the Boilerman

[BEngo]

Well that's encouraging, definitive proof that the 2LW WAS made with ally cranckcase. Perhaps I'll give Walsh a ring and see what availability is like. The ally one they offered you may just have been a fluke!

 

 

 

Probably the same reason as you decided to get a fifty year old Gardner and not a brand new BD3 or JD3... ;-)

 

But now I'm wondering about going the whole hog and seeking out a Kelvin J2....

 

Cheers, Mike

 

 

As noted above these do need a solid propshaft to transmit the prop thrust, though it would not be impossible to mate one to a PRM box. The shaft is dead easy- just a bit of 1 1/2 inch steel bar with appropriate flange couplings- see Paul C's mega thread on his Lister reduction box for piccies. You need a central bearing it can slide through - the split shell bronze one are fine. Get the alignment dead right, and check it with the boat in the water. Some people do use truck prop shafts without a stern thrust bearing. This makes alignment easier and these seem to survive for some time but the weight on the back bearing of the gearbox and the stern tube may be an issue. However if there's a stern thrust bearing then there is no prop-thrust the box tends to work itself out of gear to the point where it starts to slip and wear out the cones. Again some people have fitted stops so this doesn't happen, but they need to be adjusted frequently. A solid shaft is easiest.

 

There are other bigger things to change to install a J though- the engine bearers have to be across the boat rather than the more normal longituidinal ones and the gearbox is controlled by winding a wheel- it's not suited to any sort of lever so the gear change arrangements can be 'interesting'.

 

The J does have an almost integral gearbox so if you find one you could sell your present one with the engine.

 

If you really want a different gearbox then you will need to remove the J box but retain the front clutch and have an adaptor and short cardan shaft between that and the gearbox or put the engine in facing aft and have an adaptor shaft betwen the flywheel and the new gearbox- you could then take most of the 'works' out of the gearbox. IMHO either would look like a lash-up.

 

Dick Goble is probably a good bet as a starting point if you really want a J2.

 

N

[carlt]

if you need a lighter weight engine, what about an aircooled engine like an armstrong as2 or similar, 20hp @1500rpm i know where there is one for sale pm me if you are interested. tom

My thoughts exactly.

 

Lighter, easier to maintain, no cracked blocks, in the winter, better sound, more usable power.

[David]

As noted above these do need a solid propshaft to transmit the prop thrust, though it would not be impossible to mate one to a PRM box. The shaft is dead easy- just a bit of 1 1/2 inch steel bar with appropriate flange couplings- see Paul C's mega thread on his Lister reduction box for piccies. You need a central bearing it can slide through - the split shell bronze one are fine. Get the alignment dead right, and check it with the boat in the water. Some people do use truck prop shafts without a stern thrust bearing. This makes alignment easier and these seem to survive for some time but the weight on the back bearing of the gearbox and the stern tube may be an issue. However if there's a stern thrust bearing then there is no prop-thrust the box tends to work itself out of gear to the point where it starts to slip and wear out the cones. Again some people have fitted stops so this doesn't happen, but they need to be adjusted frequently. A solid shaft is easiest.

 

There are other bigger things to change to install a J though- the engine bearers have to be across the boat rather than the more normal longituidinal ones and the gearbox is controlled by winding a wheel- it's not suited to any sort of lever so the gear change arrangements can be 'interesting'.

 

The J does have an almost integral gearbox so if you find one you could sell your present one with the engine.

 

If you really want a different gearbox then you will need to remove the J box but retain the front clutch and have an adaptor and short cardan shaft between that and the gearbox or put the engine in facing aft and have an adaptor shaft betwen the flywheel and the new gearbox- you could then take most of the 'works' out of the gearbox. IMHO either would look like a lash-up.

 

Dick Goble is probably a good bet as a starting point if you really want a J2.

 

N

 

Dick Gobal has several J's not sure if he has someone for the J2, anyway he has gone away until a week on Sunday so if you do try contacting him it would be best in 2 weeks time.

As an aside our J3 has a truck prop shaft, been in 12 years and never changed, the prop is fitted to a solid shaft about 2ft long supported in the stuffing box and bush and in a brass split bearing just before the flange to the carden shaft, then another brass split bearing just after the flange coupling to the next solid shaft about 18" long which fits into a Centaflex coupling the other side of which is clamped on the gearbox output shaft.

david

[MtB]

My thoughts exactly.

 

Lighter, easier to maintain, no cracked blocks, in the winter, better sound, more usable power.

 

 

If they are that good, why doesn't everyone want one?

 

 

Cheers, Mike

[tom_c]

would a kelvin J3 be too big for you?

[PhilR]

Regarding ballasting just add atone to the front half to lift the stern

 

Charles

 

I agree. But that is too simple, most people usually want the expensive option ;-)

[MtB]

I agree. But that is too simple, most people usually want the expensive option ;-)

 

 

Well thank you for your replies and advice everyone, on and off board. Much appreciated. Plenty for me to digest so I'm going to sit back and consider for a while now.

 

I can see how adding a ton of ballast in the front will raise the back, but the front already draws 18". The crane says the boat weighs 22 tons and it's hard to see where all the weight comes from with just a 10mm bottom. Maybe we have 10mm sides too. The top is 5mm according to KEDIAN who made and fitted two pigeon boxes for us. Maybe I need to lift the beautiful 1" hardwood T&G floor and remove some of the paving stone ballast from amidships and add cast lead (or something dense) to the front. Amidships ballast (assuming I have it) is obviously counterproductive when the boat is already too low in the water both front and back.

 

Anyway, as one or two peeps have suggested three or four cylinder classics I have to say I'm determined to stick with two cylinders, they sound SO much nicer! It's the sound of a two-pot I'm looking for in particular. I'm wondering if I can disable one cylinder on my BD3 to get the same effect.... only (half) joking!

 

Cheers, Mike