Traction Batteries

[sallynarrowboat]

Hi all, we are thinking of getting hold of some traction type batteries for our long term live-aboard narrowboat. We figure this is a wise investment since I plan on working from the boat full time and need to be able to run lighting/water/laptop etc for the forseeable future.. I've used standard leisure type batteries in the past and found that I had to replace them pretty often under this sort of lifestyle..

 

I don't know much about traction batteries, and it seems quite hard to find suppliers online - does anyone have any good links?

 

Also, some further questions:

 

1. I have fitted a brand new 55A alternator on our ListerSR2 engine, but no regulator.. Would it be advisable to use a regulator with such high quality (expensive!) batteries? Currently we only have a typical split charge diode setup delivering current from the alternator to the 2 banks..

 

2. How quickly to typical traction batteries charge via a 55A alternator? Would there be any advantage to installing a larger one? The alternator will pretty much be our only charging source as we continually cruise.

 

3. I've noticed that there is a lot of talk about 2v cells connected up, is this typical for a traction bank? or can you get 12v packages with roughly the same form factor as standard leisures? Is there an advantage to having individual cells, say for replacement?

 

4. It seems good maintainance is key to long life, what exactly does this entail?

 

Thanks!

 

Sam

[Chris Pink]

55A alternator on an SR2 is not a good start for workaboard living.

 

I would recommend looking at this end before the batteries or you are likely to spend most of the day listening to your old thumper.

 

Consider a small generator and a large battery charger. Or a much larger (additional) alternator and the hardware to run it properly.

 

You would normally marry 55A alternator to up to around 220AH, a bit low for the traction battery market.

 

Another point of note on an SR2 is that you won't get efficient charging with the standard pulley, you don't say what is fitted to your engine.

Edited March 11, 2010 by Chris Pink

[steelaway]

Hi all, we are thinking of getting hold of some traction type batteries for our long term live-aboard narrowboat. We figure this is a wise investment since I plan on working from the boat full time and need to be able to run lighting/water/laptop etc for the forseeable future.. I've used standard leisure type batteries in the past and found that I had to replace them pretty often under this sort of lifestyle..

 

I don't know much about traction batteries, and it seems quite hard to find suppliers online - does anyone have any good links?

 

Also, some further questions:

 

1. I have fitted a brand new 55A alternator on our ListerSR2 engine, but no regulator.. Would it be advisable to use a regulator with such high quality (expensive!) batteries? Currently we only have a typical split charge diode setup delivering current from the alternator to the 2 banks..

 

2. How quickly to typical traction batteries charge via a 55A alternator? Would there be any advantage to installing a larger one? The alternator will pretty much be our only charging source as we continually cruise.

 

3. I've noticed that there is a lot of talk about 2v cells connected up, is this typical for a traction bank? or can you get 12v packages with roughly the same form factor as standard leisures? Is there an advantage to having individual cells, say for replacement?

 

4. It seems good maintainance is key to long life, what exactly does this entail?

 

Thanks!

 

Sam

 

 

Hi

 

I will be buying 4 of these shortly US batteries

Should cost around £100- £120 each. These are rated at 232 Amps at 6 Volts but connecting two together to provide 12V - they are still at 232Amps

I have had 4 Trojan T105 for the past 5 years but feel these now have the edge and much the same price.

There are some non-discript versions around - aviod them and only buy the 'named' type. I had a disapiontment with County Batteries in Notts recently trying to fob me of with these.

2V cells tend to be too long to fit conviently into a narrowboat, although some have.

You really need a bigger alternator or an extra one fitting. My engine came with two, amounting to 160A.

 

Alex

[Keeping Up]

1. I have fitted a brand new 55A alternator on our ListerSR2 engine, but no regulator.. Would it be advisable to use a regulator with such high quality (expensive!) batteries? Currently we only have a typical split charge diode setup delivering current from the alternator to the 2 banks..

Do you really mean a split charge diode, or a split charge relay?

 

If you have diodes, then you must have battery-sensing (either because the alternator is equipped to do so, or by using an external controller). If you have a relay, and a modern alternator, then there is probably little need for anything else.

[barge sara]

Hi all, we are thinking of getting hold of some traction type batteries for our long term live-aboard narrowboat.

<SNIP>

I don't know much about traction batteries, and it seems quite hard to find suppliers online - does anyone have any good links?

 

These people Powercell (used to be PB Batteries) are good for traction batteries and regularly deal with Electric Boat applications, so know a bit more about boat applications.

 

Yes, traction batteries come as 2v individual cells, so if you wanted (say) a 12v 500AH bank, you would buy six 2V 500AH cells and link them in series.

 

Traction batteries will last a long time as long as they are looked after properly. If not, they will die just as quickly as liesure batteries and you will lose your investment.

 

Good maintenance entails keeping the electrolyte topped up and keeping them charged properly - plenty of detail on here and elsewhere, but you might find this a useful start: Curtis battery book

Edited March 11, 2010 by barge sara

[David Schweizer]

Hi

 

I will be buying 4 of these shortly US batteries

Should cost around £100- £120 each. These are rated at 232 Amps at 6 Volts but connecting two together to provide 12V - they are still at 232Amps

I have had 4 Trojan T105 for the past 5 years but feel these now have the edge and much the same price.

There are some non-discript versions around - aviod them and only buy the 'named' type. I had a disapiontment with County Batteries in Notts recently trying to fob me of with these.

2V cells tend to be too long to fit conviently into a narrowboat, although some have.

You really need a bigger alternator or an extra one fitting. My engine came with two, amounting to 160A.

 

Alex

I can recommend them. We have two on our boat and they perform very well, they are nearly five years old, do not loose any charge over several weeks, and have only needed a tiny amount of topping up once (last year) we actually have these http://www.tayna.co.uk/US-125-Deep-Cycle-M...tery-P4121.html which have a bit more capacity, but are basicly the same size.

[sallynarrowboat]

Do you really mean a split charge diode, or a split charge relay?

 

If you have diodes, then you must have battery-sensing (either because the alternator is equipped to do so, or by using an external controller). If you have a relay, and a modern alternator, then there is probably little need for anything else.

 

Yes, its split charge diode at the moment.. Is the battery sensing to prevent over-charge, or?

 

Sam

[sallynarrowboat]

Ok, point taken.. more alternator power required! - I was wondering whether the 55A one would be enough. I bought it in a bit of a hurry in the middle of nowhere cruising down to London due to the old one malfunctioning.. I'll think about the pulley attached to the SR2 also.

 

Thanks for the supplier links, I'm still wondering how you can tell traction batteries apart from typical deep-cycle leisures though?

 

If they have names like:

 

US 2200 Deep Cycle Monobloc Battery

Trojan T105

 

And without any mention of the word "Traction" in the literature..

[Tony Brooks]

Yes, its split charge diode at the moment.. Is the battery sensing to prevent over-charge, or?

 

Sam

 

 

No, its to make the alternator's own regulator "regulate" at a higher than "normal" voltage so the loss of volatge in your diodes (and wiring) is overcome so it does not reduce your charging capabilities.

 

Just to reiterate what you have already been told:

 

Livaboard + 55amp alternator do not sit happily together unless you have gas fridge and are frugal with electricity use.

 

If you can not keep traction batteries well charged and topped up you will destroy them nearly as fast as you would "ordinary" batteries, see comment above.

 

I have some advice because it seems you are new to this electrical lark.

 

1. Do not go spending money on gizmos and fancy kit until the basics are right.

 

2. Please, please, please go onto my website and read through the Electrical Course notes - print them out of you want, they are free. After that have a read of the Smartguage site. Those should help you understand what you are up against.

 

3. If you have further questions and recent "goings on" on the forum has put you off asking on here please feel free to email me directly. I have no axe to grind and do not sell anything apart from courses which you emphatically do not have to take to get my help.

 

4. Once you have done your power audit and charging calculations you will probably find sorting the charging system so it will cover your electrical load a far more cost effective way of spending your money than buying traction batteries. Only buy such batteries once you are sure your charging system can cope - I suggest look at it again in two to four years when the ordinary batteries will probably need replacing.

[Keeping Up]

Yes, its split charge diode at the moment.. Is the battery sensing to prevent over-charge, or?

 

Sam

No it is not to prevent over-charging, it is to prevent under-charging (or to put it another way, to enable proper charging).

 

There will a voltage drop across the diodes when charging, so the batteries do not receive the full output voltage of the alternator. This means that the batteries do not become fully charged unless either the alternator has been manufactured and connected with a separate wire to sense the voltage at the battery terminals themselves (which is unusual for an off-the-shelf alternator), or a separate controller is being used (which performs that function as well as its other advertised charge-boosting purpose).

 

Personally I have diodes and a controller; but the cheapest and easiest option for you, unless you plan to purchase and fit an alternator controller, would be to replace the diodes with a relay.

 

 

 

Edited to replace a couple of words that decided to walk away from the final text.

Edited March 11, 2010 by Keeping Up

[sallynarrowboat]

There will a voltage drop across the diodes when charging, so the batteries do not receive the full output voltage of the alternator. This means that the batteries do not become fully charged.

I'm with you now. Thanks Allan (and Tony).. What are the other benefits of having a regulator apart from overcoming the voltage drop across split diodes?

 

Only buy such batteries once you are sure your charging system can cope - I suggest look at it again in two to four years when the ordinary batteries will probably need replacing.

Good sensible advice.. I'll certainly have a read of your course notes too.

 

Thanks,

 

Sam

[ditchcrawler]

Hi

 

I will be buying 4 of these shortly US batteries

Should cost around £100- £120 each. These are rated at 232 Amps at 6 Volts but connecting two together to provide 12V - they are still at 232Amps

I have had 4 Trojan T105 for the past 5 years but feel these now have the edge and much the same price.

There are some non-discript versions around - aviod them and only buy the 'named' type. I had a disapiontment with County Batteries in Notts recently trying to fob me of with these.

2V cells tend to be too long to fit conviently into a narrowboat, although some have.

You really need a bigger alternator or an extra one fitting. My engine came with two, amounting to 160A.

 

Alex

Free delivery at

http://www.lake-renewable-energy.com/inc/sdetail/8603

[nb Innisfree]

Multicell have just quoted me £384 for 8x110ah leisures inc vat and delivery. For 10 they can do it for £436.

[paulcatchpole]

There will a voltage drop across the diodes when charging, so the batteries do not receive the full output voltage of the alternator. This means that the batteries do not become fully charged unless either the alternator has been manufactured and connected with a separate wire to sense the voltage at the battery terminals themselves (which is unusual for an off-the-shelf alternator), or a separate controller is being used (which performs that function as well as its other advertised charge-boosting purpose).

 

I went down Snibble's tractor-regulator route, to add battery sensing - costing c. £10 courtesy of Ebay, and a resistor.

 

Worth a go for a cheap improvement, especially if either the alternator you've got came with a 13.8v reg (like mine, despite being new recently) or as a temporary workaround for undersized wiring.

 

There's a thread on here somewhere detailing it. Dead easy.

 

PC

[David Schweizer]

Ok, point taken.. more alternator power required! - I was wondering whether the 55A one would be enough. I bought it in a bit of a hurry in the middle of nowhere cruising down to London due to the old one malfunctioning.. I'll think about the pulley attached to the SR2 also.

 

Thanks for the supplier links, I'm still wondering how you can tell traction batteries apart from typical deep-cycle leisures though?

 

If they have names like:

 

US 2200 Deep Cycle Monobloc Battery

Trojan T105

 

And without any mention of the word "Traction" in the literature..

AFIK Traction batteries and Deep Cycle batteries are the same thing, they are designed primarily for machiery like fork lift trucks and golf carts which use a lot of power. They should not be confused with Leisure Batteries or so called Marine Batteries, which if you are lucky will be a hybrid design betweeen deep cycle and stater batteries, but some cheaper ones are just re-badged Starter Batteries.

 

As I understand it, real Deep Cycle batteries have solid plates which will accept deep discharging and high rate re-caharging. Starter Batteries have porous plates which will do not like taking regular heavy charging, true Leisure Batteries lie in between these two models. (I am sure if I am wrong, one of our resident experts will correct me)

 

There are various schools of thought about batteries, some people will go for comparitively cheap leisure batteries and change them every three or four years, others will opt for the more expensive Deep Cycle batteries which will last at least two to three times as long (my last set lasted 13 years!!) I had little choice because the Battery compartment in our boat will only accept 6v deep, cycle batteries, but having experinced them, I would always go for them unless i planned to dispose of the boat within a couple of years.

 

.

[nb Innisfree]

Horses for courses. I think for someone who has access to shorepower then traction is ok as they can be charged properly, for the ccer who relies on engine powered charging then tractions or anything dearer than budget FLRs could be an expensive mistake IMO, better to murder cheapo batts than expensive ones and murder them you will if ccing.

[Keeping Up]

I'm with you now. Thanks Allan (and Tony).. What are the other benefits of having a regulator apart from overcoming the voltage drop across split diodes?

The main purpose of an alternator controller is to increase the output voltage of the alternator so that it will charge the batteries harder and faster than it otherwise would, to an amount that is nearer to 100% charge. Older alternators charged the battery relatively slowly once it became anywhere near fully charged, and stopped charging well before the battery was full. The controller overcame these defects as well as compensating for the voltage drop in the wiring and in any diodes that may be present. Some controllers have some extra bells and whistles such as varying the voltage during charging so as to get the maximum charge rate without too much gassing from the battery.

 

These older alternators had a maximum output of only 13.8 volts. More modern alternators tend to have a higher voltage such as 14.2 or 14.4, which means that the need for an external controller is much less; in these cases, unless there are diodes or long wires involved, the extra cost of a controller is difficult to justify although as Paul Catchpole says, not all new alternators have this higher voltage.

 

It should be pointed out, that fitting an external controller is not a trivial task. It does involve opening up the alternator and attaching an extra wire, which is easy enough if you are used to dealing with electrical/electronic equipment but is daunting if you are not, and it may invalidate the guarantee on the alternator.

 

In my case I had an old alternator with diodes and some long wires, so the fitting of an external controller (all those years ago) was a no-brainer. I recently fitted a new alternator which has a higher output, but as I already had the diodes and the controller (and the long wires) I decided to stay with the setup which for me works very well indeed; I do rather like also the voltage cycling routine that my controller (Adverc) uses.

[nb Innisfree]

The main purpose of an alternator controller is to increase the output voltage of the alternator so that it will charge the batteries harder and faster than it otherwise would, to an amount that is nearer to 100% charge. Older alternators charged the battery relatively slowly once it became anywhere near fully charged, and stopped charging well before the battery was full. The controller overcame these defects as well as compensating for the voltage drop in the wiring and in any diodes that may be present. Some controllers have some extra bells and whistles such as varying the voltage during charging so as to get the maximum charge rate without too much gassing from the battery.

 

These older alternators had a maximum output of only 13.8 volts. More modern alternators tend to have a higher voltage such as 14.2 or 14.4, which means that the need for an external controller is much less; in these cases, unless there are diodes or long wires involved, the extra cost of a controller is difficult to justify although as Paul Catchpole says, not all new alternators have this higher voltage.

 

It should be pointed out, that fitting an external controller is not a trivial task. It does involve opening up the alternator and attaching an extra wire, which is easy enough if you are used to dealing with electrical/electronic equipment but is daunting if you are not, and it may invalidate the guarantee on the alternator.

 

In my case I had an old alternator with diodes and some long wires, so the fitting of an external controller (all those years ago) was a no-brainer. I recently fitted a new alternator which has a higher output, but as I already had the diodes and the controller (and the long wires) I decided to stay with the setup which for me works very well indeed; I do rather like also the voltage cycling routine that my controller (Adverc) uses.

 

Just to add to clear up any confusion, older alternators stopped charging before batts were full because engine was shut down after a few hours cruising, the alternator didn't stop charging by itself, if it carried on running long enough it would fully charge batts but at 13.8 volts this would take a very long time.

 

I have heard people say that an older alt is only capable of charging a batt to 65% which is strictly untrue, a common misunderstanding I think?

Edited March 11, 2010 by nb Innisfree

[paulcatchpole]

I went down Snibble's tractor-regulator route, to add battery sensing - costing c. £10 courtesy of Ebay, and a resistor.

 

Worth a go for a cheap improvement, especially if either the alternator you've got came with a 13.8v reg (like mine, despite being new recently) or as a temporary workaround for undersized wiring.

 

There's a thread on here somewhere detailing it. Dead easy.

 

PC

 

Just to add the thread link...

 

http://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php...25083&st=20

 

 

PC

[barge sara]

<SNIP>

As I understand it, real Deep Cycle batteries have solid plates which will accept deep discharging and high rate re-caharging.

<SNIP>

 

Modern (good) traction batteries have tubular plates, for two reasons:

1. It makes them stiffer, and with the tall thin shape of traction batteries, any deflection is to be avoided.

2. It increases the surface area, allowing higher currents.

[Phil Ambrose]

Multicell have just quoted me £384 for 8x110ah leisures inc vat and delivery. For 10 they can do it for £436.

 

Wow that sounds like you should bite their hand off.

 

Phil

[nb Innisfree]

Wow that sounds like you should bite their hand off.

 

Phil

 

Trouble is my AGMs have decided to hang on so in a bit of a quandary whether to replace or not + I only have room for 8, maybe team up with one or two boaters in the same spot and buy even more.

 

Edited to add: Got my numbers wrong £502 inc vat and delivery for 8 and £526 inc vat and del. for 10.

Edited March 12, 2010 by nb Innisfree