Smartgauge and Smartbank

[Rich]

Re. the fridge, if you are stationary for the vast majority of the time it would pay to buy a mains fridge and run it off the shoreline. For the few weeks of the year your supply is disconnected because you're boating, run it off the inverter. The batteries will get charged up by the engine every day anyway, when you're out and about.

 

Obviously there are a lot of variables (size of fridge, size of battery bank, alternator rating) but it's what I do and it works for me.

 

We are classed as continuous cruisers and normally moor up for the winter. We would still hope to get out during a normal winter (this one ain't been normal) so are probably on shoreline for about four months. We did consider a 230v fridge before we bought the 12v but my wife can hear the fan on the inverter running in the night and the last thing I want is for her to keep informing me that the noise is waking her

 

The fridge doesn't take an undue amount out of the batteries, we can cope quite easily.

 

Richard

 

What charger do you have?

 

A nasty, cheap bog standard Sterling which we have been using successfully for over four years. It has done everything we wanted it to do and I am quite happy with it.

 

Sorry, but there you go.

 

Richard

[GUMPY]

A nasty, cheap bog standard Sterling which we have been using successfully for over four years. It has done everything we wanted it to do and I am quite happy with it.

 

Provided the sterling is a 3stage charger and most are the just leave it connected 24/7 when on a shoreline but turn it off every couple of weeks or so for a few minutes turn it back on and let it run through its cycle again. This is similar to what Blackrose does and it serves him well and it is the closest you will get to an equalisation charge without having one.

 

If you are quite happy with it I am surprised that you are asking questions about charging.

Edited March 8, 2010 by idleness

[Nickhlx]

Deleted as off topic

 

Nick

Edited March 8, 2010 by Nickhlx

[Rich]

If you are quite happy with it I am surprised that you are asking questions about charging.

 

 

I am not asking about battery charging. If you look at the first post in this thread you will see it is about SmartGauges and SmartBanks, removing of same. I have not asked about charging my batteries. All this has blossomed because I foolishly commented that if a boating question is asked, even when there are only two answers, someone will come up with a third.

 

Blackrose replied saying that there is always more than two answers and when I queried always he confirmed it. So I brought up the question of charging batteries. I was told a week or so ago that batteries should ALWAYS be discharged to 50% before charging, is this so? (Er, that was not a question) There is only two possible answers, yes or no. That didn't stop someone trying to introduce a third but that was resolved by me being some sort of necklace

 

All this advice I have got since then has arisen because people have burst in halfway through the thread, which has by now gone so far off topic as to be in serious danger of running into its own backside, without bothering to read what has gone before. I know it is not good practice to discharge to 50% on a regular basis. I know because I have been told, and I believe it, and I don't.

 

Richard

[NB Willawaw]

 

Edited March 8, 2010 by NB Willawaw

[blackrose]

I am not asking about battery charging. If you look at the first post in this thread you will see it is about SmartGauges and SmartBanks, removing of same. I have not asked about charging my batteries. All this has blossomed because I foolishly commented that if a boating question is asked, even when there are only two answers, someone will come up with a third.

 

Blackrose replied saying that there is always more than two answers and when I queried always he confirmed it. So I brought up the question of charging batteries. I was told a week or so ago that batteries should ALWAYS be discharged to 50% before charging, is this so? (Er, that was not a question) There is only two possible answers, yes or no. That didn't stop someone trying to introduce a third but that was resolved by me being some sort of necklace

 

All this advice I have got since then has arisen because people have burst in halfway through the thread, which has by now gone so far off topic as to be in serious danger of running into its own backside, without bothering to read what has gone before. I know it is not good practice to discharge to 50% on a regular basis. I know because I have been told, and I believe it, and I don't.

 

Richard

 

Dude you need to calm down, wake up and smell the coffee, get with the program (and any other American cliche I haven't thought of...)

 

This is a public forum, which means that anyone is free to comment on the topic itself or around the topic if they so wish. Just because you started the thread doesn't mean you own it. If you feel that certain contributions aren't useful to you then move on - they may be useful to someone else. It's that simple.

 

Of course, you're free to politely ask contributors if they wouldn't mind getting back on topic, but your tone implies that you expect certain things and are dissatisfied if you don't get them.

 

I understand that you may be frustrated with your equipment but please try not to make forum members the brunt of those frustrations - some of us have been here a long time. I'm sorry if you're not getting the responses you wanted, but you would get a lot more help if you adopted a better attitude to this - and you might just learn something too!

Edited March 8, 2010 by blackrose

[Rich]

Dude you need to calm down, wake up and smell the coffee, get with the program (and any other American cliche I haven't thought of...)

 

This is a public forum, which means that anyone is free to comment on the topic itself or around the topic if they so wish. Just because you started the thread doesn't mean you own it. If you feel that certain contributions aren't useful to you then move on - they may be useful to someone else. It's that simple.

 

Of course, you're free to politely ask contributors if they wouldn't mind getting back on topic, but your tone implies that you expect certain things and are dissatisfied if you don't get them.

 

I understand that you may be frustrated with your equipment but please try not to make forum members the brunt of those frustrations - some of us have been here a long time. I'm sorry if you're not getting the responses you wanted, but you would get a lot more help if you adopted a better attitude to this - and you might just learn something too!

 

I really do not understand why you feel it necessary to post the above. I am calm, which I suggest is more than you can say. All of this confusion has occurred because I made a slightly tongue-in-cheek comment which you qualified, incorrectly in my opinion. I still await your response regarding discharging to 50%. I did not say I did this or wanted to do this. I used it as an example of a question to which there are only two possible answers.

 

The whole thing then veered off-topic, which concerns me not a jot, but this is of no consequence. I have simply responded to other posters who have been giving me advice as to how I should organise my battery charging regime, no doubt with the best of intentions. Said advice boils down to the procedure I use.

 

By saying that you are sorry that I haven't got the responses I wanted you have elegantly demonstrated that you have jumped in and got the wrong end of the stick (clichés rule OK) ( a jest before I am accused of summat else)

I had answers to my original query way back and all the rest has occurred because of your assertion that there are always more than two possible answers.

 

As for being frustrated with my equipment and making other posters the brunt of said frustrations where does that come from. It would seem that you are managing to read things that just aren't there. I think that a short session taking your own advice might be beneficial.

 

Just as an aside, you say that some of us have been here a long time. Yep, couldn't agree more, I joined before you

Edited March 8, 2010 by Rich

[Gibbo]

What a fascinating thread!

 

I think the fact that someone writes this..............

 

If I remove the fuse from the SG supply wire it still reads voltages on the two sets of batteries. I would have thought that this was not right.

 

is pretty damned good proof that the installation is wrong. Or perhaps the laws of physics are different in that particular location?

 

Tell me Rich...............

 

Where is it getting its power froif you have removed both fuses?

 

It was Gibbo who told me that when the SG read 100% it wasn't necessarily so because of the Peukert effect.

 

I said no such thing. And other readers here will know I will said no such thing.

 

What he didn't say until after it had been fitted was that any increase in charging rate, and there is one, would be for such a short time.

 

What I would have said was that any increase in charge rate would be the maximum possible. ie the maximum that your installation will allow. It cannot increase it beyond that. It simply isn't possible.

 

And I most certainly do not "forget" to tell people things until after they have spent their money. So stop pretending that I do.

[smileypete]

I really do not understand why you feel it necessary to post the above. I am calm, which I suggest is more than you can say. All of this confusion has occurred because I made a slightly tongue-in-cheek comment which you qualified, incorrectly in my opinion. I still await your response regarding discharging to 50%. I did not say I did this or wanted to do this. I used it as an example of a question to which there are only two possible answers.

 

Rich, I think the best answer is to spend a little bit of time on a regular basis studying the subject (online battery faqs would be a good start), and get some practical hands on experience.

 

Say I knew nothing about joinery and wanted to learn, what's the best way to go about it?

 

cheers,

Pete.

[Gibbo]

Say I knew nothing about joinery and wanted to learn, what's the best way to go about it?

 

Probably not to go on a woodworking forum and tell all the experts and their happy customers that their Makita circular saw doesn't work because it removed your fingers.

[Rich]

Rich, I think the best answer is to spend a little bit of time on a regular basis studying the subject (online battery faqs would be a good start), and get some practical hands on experience.

 

Say I knew nothing about joinery and wanted to learn, what's the best way to go about it?

 

cheers,

Pete.

 

I have a very basic knowledge of battery charging, I suspect rather like the majority of posters here. It works and I have not asked for any more information on the subject, as far as I know. If someone could point out the posting where I did this I would be very grateful.

 

As for the joinery question you know the answer as well as I do. But with regard to battery charging please see previous paragraph.

 

Richard

[Rich]

What a fascinating thread!

 

I think the fact that someone writes this..............

 

 

 

is pretty damned good proof that the installation is wrong. Or perhaps the laws of physics are different in that particular location?

 

Tell me Rich...............

 

Where is it getting its power froif you have removed both fuses?

 

 

 

I said no such thing. And other readers here will know I will said no such thing.

 

 

 

What I would have said was that any increase in charge rate would be the maximum possible. ie the maximum that your installation will allow. It cannot increase it beyond that. It simply isn't possible.

 

And I most certainly do not "forget" to tell people things until after they have spent their money. So stop pretending that I do.

 

There was a thread on another forum about linking two alternators together to increase the charge rate and the SmartBank was suggested as one way to do this. I telephoned you to ask the if it would and you said yes. I then enquired about getting it fitted and you recommended someone to do this. I subsequently contacted the man and it was supplied and fitted. I already had the SmartGauge. There was no mention by anyone about the increase not being significant.

 

Then, after starting the engine I saw that the charge rate was considerably higher than normal, around 125 amps instead of 92 or 93. I also saw that the charge rate dropped dramatically and very quickly down to around 93 or 94 amps and there it stayed for a while. These lower figures are about the normal charge rate without the SB. I phoned you to check if this was OK and you confirmed that it was and that the higher rate was only for a short time. So I had spent 174 quid on something that didn't make a lot of difference.

 

I fitted the SmartGauge as per your fitting instructions. The guy who fitted the SB altered my wiring. He disconnected the negative wire from the domestic bank and ran two negs from the starter battery. And of course there was also a positive wire from the starter battery which I hadn't disconnected so that would account for the voltage reading on that side. However, with the fuse withdrawn from the SG there was still a reading of around 10 v. It may be that the laws of physics are different on my boat or it may be that there was something wrong with the wiring. I do not know or care. The thing has gone.

 

I have no doubt that the SB is an excellent piece of equipment when used for the purpose for which it was designed but in my case it didn't make any worthwhile difference and I regret buying it. As in joinery, you need to use the tool for the job. Other tools could be used, for example you could knock a pin in with a chisel handle but a hammer would be better.

 

I am very willing to accept that I may have it wrong about the Peukert effect and your remarks. Peukert was certainly mentioned but it could well have been when you were talking about discharge. I cannot remember but I am willing to take your word and I humbly apologise for the slur. What you did say during a phone conversation about twelve months ago was that my belief that when the SG said 100% the bank was full, was wrong. You then explained that to ensure complete charge it needed to continue to run showing 100% until the charge rate was down to around 5 or 6 amps. I might have these last two figures wrong, it could have been slightly more or less, I really cannot remember.

 

And you most certainly did not tell me that to use the SB as I wanted would make little difference. Mind you, to be fair, you didn't tell me it would either.

 

I have no particular desire to fall out with anyone but would people please stop telling me that in order to get battery charging advice I need to change my attitude. I don't need anymore advice. My system may not be perfect but it works reasonably well and like other boaters my idea of narrowboating is to lead a quiet and peaceful life and not spend time agonising over the batteries. If I get four years out of the new bank I will happy. If I only get three, so be it. It is all to much hassle.

Edited March 9, 2010 by Rich

[blackrose]

I really do not understand why you feel it necessary to post the above. I am calm, which I suggest is more than you can say. All of this confusion has occurred because I made a slightly tongue-in-cheek comment which you qualified, incorrectly in my opinion. I still await your response regarding discharging to 50%. I did not say I did this or wanted to do this. I used it as an example of a question to which there are only two possible answers.

I did answer - Posts 47, 49 & 59

 

The whole thing then veered off-topic, which concerns me not a jot, but this is of no consequence. I have simply responded to other posters who have been giving me advice as to how I should organise my battery charging regime, no doubt with the best of intentions. Said advice boils down to the procedure I use.

 

By saying that you are sorry that I haven't got the responses I wanted you have elegantly demonstrated that you have jumped in and got the wrong end of the stick (clichés rule OK) ( a jest before I am accused of summat else)

I had answers to my original query way back and all the rest has occurred because of your assertion that there are always more than two possible answers.

A statement which I stand by. There are always lots of answers. Sometimes there may even be more than two correct answers!

 

As for being frustrated with my equipment and making other posters the brunt of said frustrations where does that come from. It would seem that you are managing to read things that just aren't there. I think that a short session taking your own advice might be beneficial.

Well, I'm not the one saying they're sick and tired of the whole thing.

 

Just as an aside, you say that some of us have been here a long time. Yep, couldn't agree more, I joined before you

You may have joined before me, but your lack of knowledge demonstrates that you haven't been here very much. Edited March 9, 2010 by blackrose

[Gibbo]

There was a thread on another forum about linking two alternators together to increase the charge rate and the SmartBank was suggested as one way to do this. I telephoned you to ask the if it would and you said yes.

 

No you didn't. You emailed me................ And asked no such question.

 

Had you actually asked the question, and told me what your installation consisted of, and the size of your alternators, you would have been told exactly what the results would have been. Which would have been "not much difference because your alternator sizes are already so big that increasing the current capability will make little difference. You can only throw so many amps at a battery".

 

But you didn't ask the question. So you didn't get the answer.

 

Instead you emailed me this...................

 

A couple of days ago I was looking at a diagram of the wiring required to link two alternators together using Smart bank and Smartgauge.

 

Today I cannot find it and I have spent a good hour looking. Would you please be so kind as to tell me where it is?

 

Richard ******

NB Puzzled

 

Indicating that you knew exactly what you were doing and thus got the reply.............

 

HI there,

 

There isn't one. Never has been! What there is is a diagram for a twin or triple battery system with 2 alternators. It's here............

 

http://www.smartgauge.co.uk/sb_wiring.html

 

Please note that you can't use this trick unless you are using a SmartGauge and SmartBank Advanced as it will cause one of the charge warning lights to come on.

 

Regards

Chris Gibson

 

And that was the sum total of discussion regarding the subject.

 

So don't pretend you were told anything different.

 

Oh the beauty of keeping full records

[tomsk]

I'm scratching my head (or rather shaking my head) at some of the comments on this thread.

 

It's an accepted fact that the SG is the most accurate state of charge battery monitor on the market. I also have a BEP DC monitor and it doesn't compare even though it cost a lot more. It gives me amps in/out and voltages on 3 banks so that's all I use it for - the SoC is a waste of time.

 

The problem with using a voltmeter to monitor your batteries is that it's not accurate unless you wait for 24 hours after any charge or discharge. Clearly that's impractical on a boat.

 

 

 

I think you mean that they should never be discharged below 50%, This is true, however even amongst the experts you will find that there are different opinions on charge/discharge regimes and equipment used to achieve optimum battery life.

 

In addition it's not simply battery life that's the issue for boaters but also battery bank size, engine or generator running times, etc. Unfortunately these things are not simple and optimum performance involves balancing a whole host of variables.

 

Really, accepted by whom?

[Rich]

Yep, sorry. My memory isn't what it was. But, and it is a big one, there were two more conversations after this.

 

But you are right, I am wrong, I need lots of advice re battery charging. In fact I think I will give up boating and spend my time charging and discharging batteries. So much more fun.

 

And I still paid 174 quid for a useless (in my case) piece of equipment.

 

I look forward (I lie) to your response.

 

Richard

[blackrose]

Really, accepted by whom?

By anyone who knows their onions.

 

Edit: In fact, long before Merlin bought Smartgauge (I think it was in 2005), I was looking at different battery monitors and contacted Merlin to ask their opinion after speaking to them at a boat show. They told me they'd run a series of tests on a range of battery monitors and the results showed that the Smartgauge came out well above the others terms of accuracy of the state of charge. However, at the time they didn't consider the Smartgauge to be a "finished" product - mainly because compared to it's competitors it looked a bit homemade and had to be mounted vith velcro. (Sorry Gibbo but that's what they said.) I think the appearance has been slightly improved since then, but it's still not all that!

 

In the end they sold me a BEP battery monitor and I bought a Smartgauge direct from Gibbo a couple of years later.

Edited March 9, 2010 by blackrose

[tomsk]

Yep, sorry. My memory isn't what it was. But, and it is a big one, there were two more conversations after this.

 

But you are right, I am wrong, I need lots of advice re battery charging. In fact I think I will give up boating and spend my time charging and discharging batteries. So much more fun.

 

And I still paid 174 quid for a useless (in my case) piece of equipment.

 

I look forward (I lie) to your response.

 

Richard

 

You should be used to this level of analism regarding 'batteries and the cotton wool wrapping of' by many with too much time on their hands (or indeed a product to sell/promote). Your desire to devote your life to constant battery monitoring will give solace to those who have nothing more exciting in there lives than a fully charged battery.

 

 

By anyone who knows their onions.

 

Are we making vegetable batteries today? Will they run my domestic bank? Do I need to bond any such onions to my hull, and if so where?

Edited March 9, 2010 by tomsk

[Gibbo]

And I still paid 174 quid for a useless (in my case) piece of equipment.

 

Not from me you didn't.

 

SmartBank Advanced retails at 45 quid. 35 quid for the relay.

 

Maybe you should have asked the right questions, then you would have got the right answers, instead of trying to work it out for yourself (and failing)

[Keeping Up]

Are we making vegetable batteries today? Will they run my domestic bank? Do I need to bond any such onions to my hull, and if so where?

You should plant your vegetables securely in the earth.

[macc]

i just hope i havent bought something that the owner knowingly has nakerd

[Grace and Favour]

You'll have to ask him if he's knowingly knackered it!

i just hope i havent bought something that the owner knowingly has nakerd

[Rich]

Not from me you didn't.

 

SmartBank Advanced retails at 45 quid. 35 quid for the relay.

 

Maybe you should have asked the right questions, then you would have got the right answers, instead of trying to work it out for yourself (and failing)

 

 

I didn't say it was bought from you. It was a supply and fit job.

 

As for asking the right questions, all this occurred before I discovered that so many posters have elbow identification problems

 

i just hope i havent bought something that the owner knowingly has nakerd

 

No, I have not knowingly knackered it, but to save you any distress, when you get it return it unopened and I will refund the money you paid and the return postage.

 

Richard

[macc]

to late rich already opened recieved parcel this morning.

 

good of you to give option though

 

thaanks jim macc

[Rich]

to late rich already opened recieved parcel this morning.

 

good of you to give option though

 

thaanks jim macc

 

Never mind, repack it and send it off.

 

Richard