Smartgauge and Smartbank

[Rich]

I have a Smartgauge which I fitted and a Smartbank which was fitted by someone recommended by Chris Gibson. It would seem that both of these pieces of equipment are fitted in such a way that no alteration is made to existing wiring.

 

Can anyone tell me if this is correct, and if so am I safe in simply removing all the wiring associated with these items prior to removing them from the boat.

 

The reason I have finally come to this decision is that today I have fitted new engine and domestic batteries and the gauge is not reading anything like I expected and a reset to factory default settings doesn't seem to happen.

 

I would very much like to put my new batteries on charge but am reluctant to do so with the current set-up.

 

All advice appreciated.

 

Richard

[Grace and Favour]

I have a Smartgauge which I fitted and a Smartbank which was fitted by someone recommended by Chris Gibson. It would seem that both of these pieces of equipment are fitted in such a way that no alteration is made to existing wiring.

 

Can anyone tell me if this is correct, and if so am I safe in simply removing all the wiring associated with these items prior to removing them from the boat.

 

The reason I have finally come to this decision is that today I have fitted new engine and domestic batteries and the gauge is not reading anything like I expected and a reset to factory default settings doesn't seem to happen.

 

I would very much like to put my new batteries on charge but am reluctant to do so with the current set-up.

 

All advice appreciated.

 

Richard

With so many folks holding the Smart gear in such high regard - - have you considered asking Gibbo what the 'snag' is? -

[Nickhlx]

With so many folks holding the Smart gear in such high regard - - have you considered asking Gibbo what the 'snag' is? -

 

 

I am about a week behind you - from what I have learnt over the last year or so, it will take several charges / discharges to below ? 70% ? SOC for the box to get into the correct calibration ballpark, and will continue to get more accurate with use. I would imagine its a case of waiting a few days for it to bring itself into sync with the battery bank.

 

One thing that concerns me is that we rarely ( at the moment) let the battery bank drop below 90% SOC - Whilst moored up its on shore power and when out on a day trip its always "fully charged".... more or less....

 

I suppose I could run a cycle or three on the washing machine though to take out 50% of the capacity in 30 mins or so....

 

I too will be following this thread as my queries will doubtless be the same...

 

Nick

Edited March 6, 2010 by Nickhlx

[Rich]

With so many folks holding the Smart gear in such high regard - - have you considered asking Gibbo what the 'snag' is? -

 

For Gibbo read Merlin, he sold it. I am not convinced that either does anything worthwhile (yep, I'm in a minority) as far as I am concerned and at this moment I think they are confusing things.

 

Richard

 

I am about a week behind you - from what I have learnt over the last year or so, it will take several charges / discharges to below ? 70% ? SOC for the box to get into the correct calibration ballpark, and will continue to get more accurate with use.

Nick

 

When the power is interrupted and restored the meter should be reading 75%. This is not the state of charge, just a figure, I think. Mine reads 0%.

 

Richard

Edited March 6, 2010 by Rich

[nb Innisfree]

I am about a week behind you - from what I have learnt over the last year or so, it will take several charges / discharges to below ? 70% ? SOC for the box to get into the correct calibration ballpark, and will continue to get more accurate with use. I would imagine its a case of waiting a few days for it to bring itself into sync with the battery bank.

 

One thing that concerns me is that we rarely ( at the moment) let the battery bank drop below 90% SOC - Whilst moored up its on shore power and when out on a day trip its always "fully charged".... more or less....

 

I suppose I could run a cycle or three on the washing machine though to take out 50% of the capacity in 30 mins or so....

 

I too will be following this thread as my queries will doubtless be the same...

 

Nick

 

Nowt wrong with keeping above 90%, as long as it drops below 95% ish, better to keep them at 100% but that would mean not using them.. pointless really. If you do discharge I would say don't go below 60% The more you cycle lead acids the shorter their life.

[GUMPY]

I have a Smartgauge which I fitted and a Smartbank which was fitted by someone recommended by Chris Gibson. It would seem that both of these pieces of equipment are fitted in such a way that no alteration is made to existing wiring.

 

Can anyone tell me if this is correct, and if so am I safe in simply removing all the wiring associated with these items prior to removing them from the boat.

 

The reason I have finally come to this decision is that today I have fitted new engine and domestic batteries and the gauge is not reading anything like I expected and a reset to factory default settings doesn't seem to happen.

 

I would very much like to put my new batteries on charge but am reluctant to do so with the current set-up.

 

All advice appreciated.

 

Richard

Yes you can remove it

However

If you only have one alternator/charger then only one set of batteries will get charged

If you have changed your batteries then it will be reading incorrectly

best course of action is to charge and discharge your batteries a few times to get the system into sync.

SG doesnt regulate the charge merely tells you what it is. SB connects the batteries so that all batteries get charge no matter what charging source you are using.

[Nickhlx]

Nowt wrong with keeping above 90%, as long as it drops below 95% ish, better to keep them at 100% but that would mean not using them.. pointless really. If you do discharge I would say don't go below 60% The more you cycle lead acids the shorter their life.

 

Thanks for the reminder...

 

I am (perhaps over) paranoid about trying to look after our bank as they are new Trojan T-125s - recently the Victron VE.Net display which was doing a good job, randomly failed and I am currently almost "blind" without it.

 

I had been thinking of the Smartgauge for maybe 2 years since before the build was finished, but one half of me was saying it isn't necessary as this does an equivalent job of the Victron - now, with it "blown", albeit temporarily I hope, I ordered a Smartgauge a few days ago and look forward to it arriving and connecting up to ultimately be the "main device" with the Victron display as backup to agree with what I am seeing - it also does tank monitoring which is useful.

 

Until we are sleeping on it and using it more "normally" it will ( could) be a while until the battery sees much action unless I deliberately discharge it...

 

Nick

Edited March 6, 2010 by Nickhlx

[Rich]

Yes you can remove it

However

If you only have one alternator/charger then only one set of batteries will get charged

If you have changed your batteries then it will be reading incorrectly

best course of action is to charge and discharge your batteries a few times to get the system into sync.

SG doesnt regulate the charge merely tells you what it is. SB connects the batteries so that all batteries get charge no matter what charging source you are using.

 

I have two alternators and the idea of the SB was to increase the charge rate. This it surely does but for such a short time that it was really pointless in fitting it, something I found out after installation.

 

What concerns me is the way the SG is acting. If I remove the fuse from the SG supply wire it still reads voltages on the two sets of batteries. I would have thought that this was not right.

 

Having changed the batteries I would have expected it to read a purely nominal 75% charge. Mine reads 0%. I tried a reset to default settings and SU came up on the display. My wife held the two buttons until her fingers started to deaden and then we gave up before any of the expected readings appeared.

 

You are quite certain that I can disconnect all wires relating to the SB and SG and all will be well?

[GUMPY]

I have two alternators and the idea of the SB was to increase the charge rate. This it surely does but for such a short time that it was really pointless in fitting it, something I found out after installation.

 

What concerns me is the way the SG is acting. If I remove the fuse from the SG supply wire it still reads voltages on the two sets of batteries. I would have thought that this was not right.

 

Having changed the batteries I would have expected it to read a purely nominal 75% charge. Mine reads 0%. I tried a reset to default settings and SU came up on the display. My wife held the two buttons until her fingers started to deaden and then we gave up before any of the expected readings appeared.

 

You are quite certain that I can disconnect all wires relating to the SB and SG and all will be well?

If you have removed BOTH fuses and it is still showing voltage then its wired wrong.

If you mean that you have removed the fuse from the SB then SG will show voltage

If, as it appears you are not disconnecting the power from the SG then it will be impossible to do a factory reset.

All that will happen is that you go into set-up mode hence SU

Suggest you find the fuses that feed the SG (you did fit them didnt you) remove them and try again.

 

Now what would I do

Just put the charger on and let it run its cycle turn it off then discharge for a while (a day or so of normal use) then switch the charger on again. Just remember batteries are disposable items no matter how much they cost.

Edited March 6, 2010 by idleness

[Justme]

It sounds like when you changed the bats you have fitted a wire or two wrongly.

[Rich]

It sounds like when you changed the bats you have fitted a wire or two wrongly.

 

 

Possibly, but I think that even I would notice if I connected a black wire to the positive side, or a red one to the negative side.

 

. Just remember batteries are disposable items no matter how much they cost.

 

 

Agreed, but I would like a bit longer out of them than a couple of days :-) The previous bank, 4x6v deep cycle, lasted less than 12 months. This time I have gone down-market but nevertheless...

 

Tomorrow I intend to remove the wiring associated with the SB from the SG and both battery banks. I will then switch on the battery charger and see what happens.

 

Richard

[nb Innisfree]

Thanks for the reminder...

 

I am (perhaps over) paranoid about trying to look after our bank as they are new Trojan T-125s - recently the Victron VE.Net display which was doing a good job, randomly failed and I am currently almost "blind" without it.

 

I had been thinking of the Smartgauge for maybe 2 years since before the build was finished, but one half of me was saying it isn't necessary as this does an equivalent job of the Victron - now, with it "blown", albeit temporarily I hope, I ordered a Smartgauge a few days ago and look forward to it arriving and connecting up to ultimately be the "main device" with the Victron display as backup to agree with what I am seeing - it also does tank monitoring which is useful.

 

Until we are sleeping on it and using it more "normally" it will ( could) be a while until the battery sees much action unless I deliberately discharge it...

 

Nick

 

Discharging a battery does not do it any good whatsoever, if it is not being used then you must keep it fully charged.

[Rich]

Discharging a battery does not do it any good whatsoever, if it is not being used then you must keep it fully charged.

 

But not, I was informed, by keeping it permanently connected to a three stage charger as this is not good for the battery. To do that you need a four stage charger.

 

Richard

[nb Innisfree]

But not, I was informed, by keeping it permanently connected to a three stage charger as this is not good for the battery. To do that you need a four stage charger.

 

Richard

 

True in that case, then you should disconnect charger when 100% SoC and leave it for a while then give them a float occasionally.

Edited March 6, 2010 by nb Innisfree

[Justme]

Possibly, but I think that even I would notice if I connected a black wire to the positive side, or a red one to the negative side.

 

 

Yet it still gives a reading when you remove the positive feed via removing the fuse?

 

Its wired wrong. Even if it was busted it cant work with only one wire connected.

 

 

When you say you want the bats to last longer, do you mean per charge of total life time?

[Theo]

A couple of points:

 

1. Smartguage will be powered up if either of the positives (engine or domestic) is connected and, of course a negative.

2. Smartbank will not increase the charging rate. That is not what it is designed to do. Smartguage is a clever bit of kit designed to ensure that the engine battery always takes priority in the charging regime and never gets discharged by the using the domestic power.

 

If you have been charging the batteries from the charger you should find that Smartguage is reading CON to indicate that the engine and domestic batteries are connected in parallel by the chunky relay that is fitted. If you start the engine very soon after switching off the charger and the engine starts very easily Smartbank may well not appear to do anything. If you are off shore power and use the batteries overnight then the realy contacts will have opened to prevent discharge of the engine battery and you will have been discharging your domestics. In the morning when you start up you will discharge the engine battery a bit and Smartguage will leave the relay contacts open until it deems that the engine battery is fully charged. A minute or two after starting you will hear the relay contacts close and the engine revs dip as Smartbank energises the relay and the domestic bank starts to charge.

 

What it does it does beautifully and without user intervention. Carefully read the manuals, check that all is connected properly, and, as long as you haven't broken it by faulty connections it will work faultlessly.

 

If, when you changed to batteries, you installed a different type, then you might need to tell Smartguage. The set up allows you choose from about 6 different types IIRC. The manual tells you about this.

 

One final thing. Do make sure that the battery sensing wires are connected directly to the battery terminals and not used for anything else. Smartgauge measures the battery voltages 30 times a second (IIRC) and uses this to establish the state of charge

 

HTH

 

Nick

Edited March 6, 2010 by Theo

[GUMPY]

But not, I was informed, by keeping it permanently connected to a three stage charger as this is not good for the battery. To do that you need a four stage charger.

 

Well that statement is a load of Bo110cks

There is no such thing as a four stage charger

stage 1 bulk

stage 2 absorbtion

stage 3 float

Thats it

 

However some chargers are better than others, a cheap charger will raise the voltage to absorption voltage from float every time that there is a slight load on the system

A decent charger will keep the voltage at float level unless you place a very large load on the batteries.

 

My victron has been on float for most of the last 3 years and before that it was a xantrex and the batteries are 5 years old and still last almost as long as the day they were new.

 

Must stop now before I get insulting...............

[nb Innisfree]

Well that statement is a load of Bo110cks

There is no such thing as a four stage charger

stage 1 bulk

stage 2 absorbtion

stage 3 float

Thats it

 

However some chargers are better than others, a cheap charger will raise the voltage to absorption voltage from float every time that there is a slight load on the system

A decent charger will keep the voltage at float level unless you place a very large load on the batteries.

 

My victron has been on float for most of the last 3 years and before that it was a xantrex and the batteries are 5 years old and still last almost as long as the day they were new.

 

Must stop now before I get insulting...............

 

Sorry but Victron does have a 4th 'Storage Mode'. To quote Victron "The storage mode kicks in whenever the battery has not been subjected to discharge during 24 hrs. In the storage mode float voltage is reduced to2.2 volt per cell (13.3v for 12v battery) to minimise gassing and corrosion of the positive plates. Once a week voltage is raised back to to the absorption voltage to 'equalize' the battery. This feature prevents stratification of the electrolyte and sulphation, a major cause of early battery failure"

[blackrose]

Sorry but Victron does have a 4th 'Storage Mode'. To quote Victron "The storage mode kicks in whenever the battery has not been subjected to discharge during 24 hrs. In the storage mode float voltage is reduced to2.2 volt per cell (13.3v for 12v battery) to minimise gassing and corrosion of the positive plates. Once a week voltage is raised back to to the absorption voltage to 'equalize' the battery. This feature prevents stratification of the electrolyte and sulphation, a major cause of early battery failure"

 

Any supposed 4th stage is generally the manufacturer's own add on rather than a true generic stage of charging - and each manufacturer seems to have a different 4th stage. Sterling for example state that their 4th stage takes place if no battery activity has taken place for a period of 7 days. The charger then goes through the full charge cycle so as not to leave the batteries on float for too long.

Edited March 6, 2010 by blackrose

[nb Innisfree]

Any supposed 4th stage is generally the manufacturer's own add on rather tha a true generic stage of charging and each maufacturer seems to have a different 4th stage. Sterling for example state that their 4th stage takes place if no battery activity has take place for a period of 7 days. The charger then goes through the full charge cycle so as not to leave the batteries on float for too long.

 

Yes true, it is a manufacturers claim but it does have a real purpose, that is to stop or minimise any damage to the battery.

[GUMPY]

Sorry but Victron does have a 4th 'Storage Mode'. To quote Victron "The storage mode kicks in whenever the battery has not been subjected to discharge during 24 hrs. In the storage mode float voltage is reduced to2.2 volt per cell (13.3v for 12v battery) to minimise gassing and corrosion of the positive plates. Once a week voltage is raised back to to the absorption voltage to 'equalize' the battery. This feature prevents stratification of the electrolyte and sulphation, a major cause of early battery failure"

Victron also use adaptive charging as standard and we all know that's about as much use as a chocolate teapot

Having said that a victron multi with the veconfigure software can be made to work very well provided you ignore their standard settings!

 

One could also say that the xantrex has a 4th stage as well, an eight hour manually started equalisation charge.

However in generic terms its all an add on and different manufacturers have different things that they call the 4th stage.

Personally I run a manual equalisation charge every 6 weeks or so and that means charging at 16v/5amps for 8hrs but its not part of the general charge system.

[Nickhlx]

Victron also use adaptive charging as standard and we all know that's about as much use as a chocolate teapot

Having said that a victron multi with the veconfigure software can be made to work very well provided you ignore their standard settings!

 

One could also say that the xantrex has a 4th stage as well, an eight hour manually started equalisation charge.

However in generic terms its all an add on and different manufacturers have different things that they call the 4th stage.

Personally I run a manual equalisation charge every 6 weeks or so and that means charging at 16v/5amps for 8hrs but its not part of the general charge system.

 

 

Agreed - my Victron 12/3000/120 makes reference to adaptive charging, although doesn't appear to elaborate...

 

It does have a fourth "storage mode" of 13.2 volts which kicks in if there has been no discharge in 24 hours - and once a week it raises the voltage to absorption level to prevent stratification.

 

Your manual "equalisation" of 16V / 5A - how do you set "5A" ? Surely you can only set 16V - it will take what it wants - or is it current-limited to 5A - and what is the bank's capacity ?

 

I have the VE software and dongle and plan to check what the builder has set things to... I need to ask Trojan what voltage I should choose for Absorption - I guess it might depend on whether I want faster charging or better longevity from the battery, and the answer for me will be longevity... which suggests 14.4V

 

Thanks,

 

Nick

[blackrose]

Agreed - my Victron 12/3000/120 makes reference to adaptive charging, although doesn't appear to elaborate...

 

It does have a fourth "storage mode" of 13.2 volts which kicks in if there has been no discharge in 24 hours - and once a week it raises the voltage to absorption level to prevent stratification.

 

Your manual "equalisation" of 16V / 5A - how do you set "5A" ? Surely you can only set 16V - it will take what it wants - or is it current-limited to 5A - and what is the bank's capacity ?

 

I have the VE software and dongle and plan to check what the builder has set things to... I need to ask Trojan what voltage I should choose for Absorption - I guess it might depend on whether I want faster charging or better longevity from the battery, and the answer for me will be longevity... which suggests 14.4V

 

Thanks,

 

Nick

 

My Sterling stays switched on (shore power) at 13.5v float with no amps going in. Is that float voltage too high?

 

Because I live aboard there's always battery activity so I have the charger on a weekly timer to switch it off and back on once a week ad take it through a full charge cycle.

[GUMPY]

the forth stage is not that at all

What it is is still float voltage followed by switch back to absorbtion.

As for equalisation I do that from the xantrex charger actually on my system its 32v at 4amps. It can be done on the victron by IIRC a combination of button switching, it really needs to be done manually as you have to check the specific gravity of every cell until they are the all same.

14.4 is a compromise as are all voltages since the ideal voltage changes with state of charge ,see many previous arguments in here on gassing voltage.

I set my victron to have two charging curves depending on where i am.

Genset absorbtion voltage is 29.9 @ 20degC with a short absorbtion time (3hrs) this gives me a quick charge and minimum run time.

On a shoreline its set at 28v@20degC with a long absorbtion time(9hrs) this gives a slower charge and doesnt hit the batteries so hard as they are on float 90% of the time.I state temperature as because of the temp sensor on the batteries yo get a different voltage depending on the time of year. Yes you can make batteries last mine are five years old but you have to understand what you are doing.

 

 

Sent from my phone so there may be mistakes

[Rich]

[quote name='Justme' date='Mar 6 2010, 09:03 PM' post='500036'

When you say you want the bats to last longer, do you mean per charge of total life time?

 

Sorry, I haven't a clue what that means.

 

There appears to be something wrong ATM and I have no desire to risk damaging a brand new battery bank by continuing to use a piece of equipment, the Smartbank, which has never done what I expected it to do and seems now to be following its own agenda.

 

Before buying it I spoke to Chris Gibbons and he confirmed that it would increase the charge rate by connecting together the two alternators. What he didn't say until after it had been fitted was that any increase in charging rate, and there is one, would be for such a short time.