Smartgauge and Smartbank

[Rich]

Well that statement is a load of Bo110cks

There is no such thing as a four stage charger

 

 

The info regarding the four stage charger was given to me by a well respected electrical engineer who informed me that by keeping my batteries permanently connected over the winter whilst living onboard I was doing considerable damage. To do that safely I needed a four stage charger.

 

I haven't a clue, I am a joiner not an electrical wizard. This is a problem that occurs so often with things boaty. If you ask a question where there are only two possible answers, yes or no, someone will come up with a third.

 

Anyway, today off it comes.

 

Richard

[Nickhlx]

The info regarding the four stage charger was given to me by a well respected electrical engineer who informed me that by keeping my batteries permanently connected over the winter whilst living onboard I was doing considerable damage. To do that safely I needed a four stage charger.

 

I haven't a clue, I am a joiner not an electrical wizard. This is a problem that occurs so often with things boaty. If you ask a question where there are only two possible answers, yes or no, someone will come up with a third.

 

Anyway, today off it comes.

 

Richard

 

 

You can get shades of grey ? :lol:

 

 

What I think it boils down to is a loose (poor) use of terms ...

 

There's 1) Bulk

2) Absorption

3) Float

4) "Storage" which is a mixture of 3) and 2) = "a setting that will occasionally take float up to

absorption voltage once a week to avoid stratification"

 

I think the chargers that have this facility, claim that it's a "fourth" stage, when it's an adaptation of two existing phases....

 

Nick

[nb Innisfree]

[quote name='Justme' date='Mar 6 2010, 09:03 PM' post='500036'

When you say you want the bats to last longer, do you mean per charge of total life time?

 

 

Sorry, I haven't a clue what that means.

 

I think what he means is "do you mean per charge or total life time" rather than " of total life time"

 

in other words are you looking for batts to give you longer between charges or batts to last longer before renewal.

Edited March 7, 2010 by nb Innisfree

[Justme]

Ah fat fingers lol.

 

Yes OR not OF

 

Having read lots of what Gibbo has written here he always says that the bulk phase can be shortened by a large amp charge but that the total charge time is not reduced as much as the longest bit is the absorb phase & a big charger does not reduce that stage.

[blackrose]

I haven't a clue, I am a joiner not an electrical wizard. This is a problem that occurs so often with things boaty. If you ask a question where there are only two possible answers, yes or no, someone will come up with a third.

 

That's probabaly because there are always more tha two possible answers!

[blackrose]

I set my victron to have two charging curves depending on where i am.

Genset absorbtion voltage is 29.9 @ 20degC with a short absorbtion time (3hrs) this gives me a quick charge and minimum run time.

On a shoreline its set at 28v@20degC with a long absorbtion time(9hrs) this gives a slower charge and doesnt hit the batteries so hard as they are on float 90% of the time.I state temperature as because of the temp sensor on the batteries yo get a different voltage depending on the time of year. Yes you can make batteries last mine are five years old but you have to understand what you are doing.

 

That all seems like a bit of a palava to me Julian. I just leave my Sterling switched on when I'm on shore power and run it through a couple of cycles when I'm away from the mooring and running it from the generator.

 

There are no manual or user defined settings on my charger but the batteries are 5 years old and still going strong, so the charger must be doing something right.

Edited March 7, 2010 by blackrose

[nb Innisfree]

Ah fat fingers lol.

 

Yes OR not OF

 

Having read lots of what Gibbo has written here he always says that the bulk phase can be shortened by a large amp charge but that the total charge time is not reduced as much as the longest bit is the absorb phase & a big charger does not reduce that stage.

 

Yes bulk charge time will be reduced considerably with a larger alternator but absorption and float will be the same. If you do partial state of charging only (bulk) with an occasional absorption/float then a large alternator will make a big difference. I can replace a days usage (15% of 480 ah @24v battery capacity) in a 1 hour or less bulk charge but it takes 8hrs+ to do the final 20% (at least double that if I want to really equalise- not feasible)

 

Just to add we are CCers with no access to shorepower which is a completely different kettle of fish. Shoreline is a cinch, ensures long battery life, Ccers have to make sacrifices to battery life to keep engine run times realistic.

Edited March 7, 2010 by nb Innisfree

[bottle]

Rich

 

If you are still reading this, by all means disconnect both the Smartgauge and the Smartbank.

 

Then reconnect the Smartgauge only, also remove connection between Smartgauge and Smartbank, as per instructions, cables directly to the domestic battery bank, with fuse in the circuit.

 

The Smartgauge will reset itself to factory preset and go from there.

 

It may take a few days to synchronise itself with the new batteries but do ensure that you have selected the correct battery type in the set-up.

Edited March 7, 2010 by bottle

[GUMPY]

The info regarding the four stage charger was given to me by a well respected electrical engineer who informed me that by keeping my batteries permanently connected over the winter whilst living onboard I was doing considerable damage. To do that safely I needed a four stage charger.

 

I haven't a clue, I am a joiner not an electrical wizard. This is a problem that occurs so often with things boaty. If you ask a question where there are only two possible answers, yes or no, someone will come up with a third.

 

Anyway, today off it comes.

I am rubbish at woodwork thats why I pay someone who is good to come and do it for me

Good luck, Taking SG off wont affect what happens to your batteries in the slightest except you wont have a clue how charged they are.

 

That all seems like a bit of a palava to me Julian. I just leave my Sterling switched on when I'm on shore power and run it through a couple of cycles when I'm away from the mooring and running it from the generator.

 

There are no manual or user defined settings on my charger but the batteries are 5 years old and still going strong, so the charger must be doing something right.

 

Not a palava at all its all linked to the PC and takes but a few key strokes and mouse clicks to changewhen I leave the moorings

Edited March 7, 2010 by idleness

[Rich]

That's probabaly because there are always more tha two possible answers!

 

 

Always?

 

Richard

[Rich]

Good luck, Taking SG off wont affect what happens to your batteries in the slightest except you wont have a clue how charged they are.

 

The SB is off and will now appear in the for sale forum. I have retained the SG for the moment. When we started planning the fit-out there was a thread on another forum about the usefulness of amp/hour meters. The general opinion was that they were useful. Then, of course, you discover that after a time they become increasingly inaccurate until you have a good run and they reset.

 

Then the SG appeared on the scene. Very good as it was accurate, until you discover that that isn't strictly true because the Peukart (or similar) effect has to be taken into account.

 

If I do remove it I will have to rely on the amp/hour meter (fitted before the SG) which after using it for a while and getting used to translating the readings gives me a pretty good indication as to battery state.

 

I am now officially sick of the whole damn affair

 

Thanks for the help, both OT and on.

 

Richard

Edited March 7, 2010 by Rich

[Nickhlx]

The SB is off and will now appear in the for sale forum. I have retained the SG for the moment. When we started planning the fit-out there was a thread on another forum about the usefulness of amp/hour meters. The general opinion was that they were useful. Then, of course, you discover that after a time they become increasingly inaccurate until you have a good run and they reset.

 

Then the SG appeared on the scene. Very good as it was accurate, until you discover that that isn't strictly true because the Peukart (or similar) effect has to be taken into account.

 

If I do remove it I will have to rely on the amp/hour meter (fitted before the SG) which after using it for a while and getting used to translating the readings gives me a pretty good indication as to battery state.

 

I am now officially sick of the whole damn affair

 

Thanks for the help, both OT and on.

 

Richard

 

 

I would like to buy the Smartbank please - which forum ?

 

Thanks Nick

[nb Innisfree]

The SB is off and will now appear in the for sale forum. I have retained the SG for the moment. When we started planning the fit-out there was a thread on another forum about the usefulness of amp/hour meters. The general opinion was that they were useful. Then, of course, you discover that after a time they become increasingly inaccurate until you have a good run and they reset.

 

Then the SG appeared on the scene. Very good as it was accurate, until you discover that that isn't strictly true because the Peukart (or similar) effect has to be taken into account.

 

If I do remove it I will have to rely on the amp/hour meter (fitted before the SG) which after using it for a while and getting used to translating the readings gives me a pretty good indication as to battery state.

 

I am now officially sick of the whole damn affair

 

Thanks for the help, both OT and on.

 

Richard

 

Even though we have a SG and BMV monitor we now just rely on amps and volts to tell us when to charge and when to stop charging, also how many amp hours used. Assuming a good quality monitor they are the only true readings, the rest is a fairytale.

[Keeping Up]

Even though we have a SG and BMV monitor we now just rely on amps and volts to tell us when to charge and when to stop charging, also how many amp hours used. Assuming a good quality monitor they are the only true readings, the rest is a fairytale.

I rely on a pair of moving-needle meters; car-dashboard-style 12v and 50-0-50A.

 

Neither of them are remotely accurate, but the pattern of their relative movement tells me everything that I need to know.

[nb Innisfree]

I rely on a pair of moving-needle meters; car-dashboard-style 12v and 50-0-50A.

 

Neither of them are remotely accurate, but the pattern of their relative movement tells me everything that I need to know.

 

Providing they are consistent you could check their accuracy with a decent test meter and make allowances accordingly. Surprising how just observing charge and discharge patterns you get an accurate sense of battery behaviour and condition.

[Keeping Up]

Providing they are consistent you could check their accuracy with a decent test meter and make allowances accordingly. Surprising how just observing charge and discharge patterns you get an accurate sense of battery behaviour and condition.

Indeed. I check them against a cheap digital meter 3 or 4 times a year, and against a Fluke once a year. The voltmeter has an adjustment screw so I usually set it to be fairly close at 12.5v. Within reason it doesn't matter how inaccurate the ammeter is (it gets some abuse from my 70A alternator). The pattern of movement is what counts, especially with the Adverc switching between its high and low voltages.

[Rich]

I would like to buy the Smartbank please - which forum ?

 

Thanks Nick

 

Items for sale under the general heading on Canal World. It is the advanced model which needs a SmartGauge.

[blackrose]

Always?

 

Richard

 

Yes.

[Rich]

Yes.

 

OK. Batteries should always be discharged to 50% before recharging for optimum life. Note the "always". Not sometimes, now and again, occasionally etc.

[blodger]

Indeed. I check them against a cheap digital meter 3 or 4 times a year, and against a Fluke once a year. The voltmeter has an adjustment screw so I usually set it to be fairly close at 12.5v. Within reason it doesn't matter how inaccurate the ammeter is (it gets some abuse from my 70A alternator). The pattern of movement is what counts, especially with the Adverc switching between its high and low voltages.

 

There are some chinese digital panel volmeters out on Ebay that work out at about a fiver including post. The digits are black on a blue backlit display about 3" x 1" operating 7 to 20 or 30 volts They take their power from the supply being measured. So I found them cheaper and more accurate than car type analogue volt indicators for portable generators.

 

As I have three battery banks and two starter batts on the boat I have mounted four through a four gang switch. I have removed the windcharger shunt controller that served two banks as it was not working to make room for the same. In addition, I have mounted 4 sholky diodes in another 4gang switch pattress to feed the windcharger amps to whichever banks are switched in through the separate diodes. This utilises two of the sense/charge wires and negative that were already there for the shunt controller. I have still to wire in the third bank but results look promising.

 

If all works well, I have tested connecting a mains charger through an in line 20amp analogue panel meter and, it does seem effective at 'spilt charging', I am going to see if charging from the solar panels is more effective therethrough/see if I can make their 'controller' redundant.

 

All my batteries are over four years old and still sufficing but I might as well experiment before their inevitable replacement.

 

Posting to agree that monitoring voltages and current in and out works without anything too fancy and I would sooner spend money on replacing batts than expensive equipment that tells me what I already know!

 

Anything which makes it easier but is cheap is helpful though!

[nb Innisfree]

OK. Batteries should always be discharged to 50% before recharging for optimum life. Note the "always". Not sometimes, now and again, occasionally etc.

 

Disagree, discharging to 60% SoC is better than 50% - 70% better than 60% - 80% better than 70% etc etc. But 90% is better than 95%. 100% is best.

[blackrose]

I'm scratching my head (or rather shaking my head) at some of the comments on this thread.

 

It's an accepted fact that the SG is the most accurate state of charge battery monitor on the market. I also have a BEP DC monitor and it doesn't compare even though it cost a lot more. It gives me amps in/out and voltages on 3 banks so that's all I use it for - the SoC is a waste of time.

 

The problem with using a voltmeter to monitor your batteries is that it's not accurate unless you wait for 24 hours after any charge or discharge. Clearly that's impractical on a boat.

 

OK. Batteries should always be discharged to 50% before recharging for optimum life. Note the "always". Not sometimes, now and again, occasionally etc.

 

I think you mean that they should never be discharged below 50%, This is true, however even amongst the experts you will find that there are different opinions on charge/discharge regimes and equipment used to achieve optimum battery life.

 

In addition it's not simply battery life that's the issue for boaters but also battery bank size, engine or generator running times, etc. Unfortunately these things are not simple and optimum performance involves balancing a whole host of variables.

Edited March 7, 2010 by blackrose

[blodger]

I'm scratching my head (or rather shaking my head) at some of the comments on this thread.

 

It's an accepted fact that the SG is the most accurate state of charge battery monitor on the market. I also have a BEP DC monitor and it doesn't compare even though it cost a lot more. It gives me amps in/out and voltages on 3 banks so that's all I use it for - the SoC is a waste of time.

 

The problem with using a voltmeter to monitor your batteries is that it's not accurate unless you wait for 24 hours after any charge or discharge. Clearly that's impractical on a boat.

 

 

 

Perhaps, but even amongst the experts you will find that there are different opinions on methods and equipment used to achieve optimum charging.

I understand that SG is a good bit of kit for its cost. However, the majority of boaters do not have it and learn to cope & manage pretty well without. It seems on this forum sometimes whatever the query electrically the answer is SG or SB. It might be sound advice but is not the only answer!

[blackrose]

I understand that SG is a good bit of kit for its cost. However, the majority of boaters do not have it and learn to cope & manage pretty well without. It seems on this forum sometimes whatever the query electrically the answer is SG or SB. It might be sound advice but is not the only answer!

 

I didn't say it was the only answer, I said it was the best answer.

Edited March 7, 2010 by blackrose

[MikeV]

Then the SG appeared on the scene. Very good as it was accurate, until you discover that that isn't strictly true because the Peukart (or similar) effect has to be taken into account.

SG compensates for Peukert and battery ageing. Some Amp-Hour meters compensate for Peukert but they cannot compensate for battery ageing.