Horn blasts

[landmarker]

I wish I'd known about the 'out of control' one today on our day boat - first boat for 17 years.

 

Meanwhile 6 yr. old g/d Eve was in charge of horn blasts for bridges and never missed a one - & there must have been about forty of the beggars

Well done kidda.

Edited September 23, 2009 by landmarker

[Keeping Up]

Sorry, but this is just wrong. The signals are quite clear; 1 blast does not mean pass on the usual side and 2 blasts does not mean pass on the wrong side. Signals such as those in the By Laws or in the Col Regs are written in a way that they can have only one meaning to avoid any confusion or misunderstanding and your interpretation only covers one situation - i.e. end on. The signals are there to indicate clearly that a boat is altering course in the direction indicated by the signal - clear and unambiguous.

 

Howard

No it is NOT wrong. I agree that it is not STRICTLY according to the definition, but (and particularly on canals) it covers nearly all cases and represents an easy way that a person such as MJG "a lowly hirer who gets to do this boating malarkey 2 to 4 weeks per year" can remember the difference between one hoot and two hoots.

[Proper Job]

Whats a horn?

[howardang]

No it is NOT wrong. I agree that it is not STRICTLY according to the definition, but (and particularly on canals) it covers nearly all cases and represents an easy way that a person such as MJG "a lowly hirer who gets to do this boating malarkey 2 to 4 weeks per year" can remember the difference between one hoot and two hoots.

Allan, you can "interpret" your understanding of the rules as long as you like but it is wrong to say what you did, and also misleading. I do understand that you are trying to help people with little knowledge of the subject but IMHO it is better to help people to learn the correct meaning. Lets face it, it,s not the theory of relativity your trying to get across!

 

An example of where "rules" have been interpreted to eventually give very misleading results can be seen every day on the roads where people flash their lights to indicate "please go ahead" or "i'm giving way to you" when the Highway Code is quite clear that it is there to augment the horn and is a warning signal. This has lead to misunderstandings and accidents.

 

Howard

[carlt]

Whats a horn?

Sometimes, in the evening, a spammer posts threads that may help, should you have any trouble getting one.

 

An example of where "rules" have been interpreted to eventually give very misleading results can be seen every day on the roads where people flash their lights to indicate "please go ahead" or "i'm giving way to you" when the Highway Code is quite clear that it is there to augment the horn and is a warning signal. This has lead to misunderstandings and accidents.

"I couldn't be bothered to read the Highway Code" is no defence, in the event of an accident and, when bearing down on a small boat, piloted by someone who does know the rules, and giving the wrong signal, is no different.

 

In the Boater's Handbook (available as a free download: Clicky) there are seven signals to learn.

 

Surely this is almost as simple as rocket science (an explosion in a cylinder, sealed at one end)?

[RLWP]

Surely this is almost as simple as rocket science (an explosion in a cylinder, sealed at one end)?

 

Yeah, it's not like its brain surgery...

 

Richard

[mayalld]

Sometimes, in the evening, a spammer posts threads that may help, should you have any trouble getting one.

 

 

"I couldn't be bothered to read the Highway Code" is no defence, in the event of an accident and, when bearing down on a small boat, piloted by someone who does know the rules, and giving the wrong signal, is no different.

 

In the Boater's Handbook (available as a free download: Clicky) there are seven signals to learn.

 

Surely this is almost as simple as rocket science (an explosion in a cylinder, sealed at one end)?

 

Yes, I would agree that it would be a great advance if people actually understood the BASIC signals

[Naughty Cal]

"I couldn't be bothered to read the Highway Code" is no defence, in the event of an accident and, when bearing down on a small boat, piloted by someone who does know the rules, and giving the wrong signal, is no different.

 

Cars tend to be driven a little faster than boats on inland waterways though. Avoiding an accident at say 50mph in a car is a lot harder than avoiding one at 4mph in a boat.

[GUMPY]

Was on the Thames just below Marlow a week or so ago and had to move across to Port to go round some canoeists at the school there.

The shame was that there was a cruiser trying to overtake me at the time sounded the relevant horn signal ( 2 sht blasts) and he immediately backed off.

When past the canoeists I sounded the opposite signal so he would know that I was pulling over to Starboard in order let him pass.

 

One better than that: a few years ago was just about to turn into Brentford and noticed that there was a lifeboat, returning from the Kingston RNLI do, well behind me on my port side, giving me ample room to turn before I crossed his path.

two things happend at the same time:

1 I sounded the signal to turn round to port

2 the lifeboat opened his throttles

The third thing that happened was the lifeboat killed his throttles instantly.

 

So horn signals do work and and can be very useful

[mayalld]

Cars tend to be driven a little faster than boats on inland waterways though.

 

On average, this is certainly true, but there are always exceptions.

[Naughty Cal]

On average, this is certainly true, but there are always exceptions.

 

Which is why i used the word tend

[luctor et emergo]

Cars tend to be driven a little faster than boats on inland waterways though. Avoiding an accident at say 50mph in a car is a lot harder than avoiding one at 4mph in a boat.

 

 

Really? I may not have a boat (yet), but I know that boats don't have brakes, and that they only respond well to the rudder when under power, so avoiding a collision when two 20ton + boats are drifting into each others path, with only one (or neither... ) helmsman knowing what to do, or where to go, seems to me much more cause for disaster than a car, which has brakes, and therefore can be stopped, controled, in a relatively short distance.

 

Yes, I know, idiot drivers etc... I see them every night, and have to deal with them. The above assumes that the speed is appropriate to the conditions.. 50 mph on an A road, is fine. If you do 50mph in a build up zone, your brakes are not going to avoid a collision either (if, say, somebody pulls out of a side road).

 

I suppose I could compare stopping a 20 ton boat with stopping a 20 ton truck (or even a car for that matter ) on ice....

[RLWP]

Really? I may not have a boat (yet), but I know that boats don't have brakes, and that they only respond well to the rudder when under power, so avoiding a collision when two 20ton + boats are drifting into each others path, with only one (or neither... ) helmsman knowing what to do, or where to go, seems to me much more cause for disaster than a car, which has brakes, and therefore can be stopped, controled, in a relatively short distance.

 

Yes, I know, idiot drivers etc... I see them every night, and have to deal with them. The above assumes that the speed is appropriate to the conditions.. 50 mph on an A road, is fine. If you do 50mph in a build up zone, your brakes are not going to avoid a collision either (if, say, somebody pulls out of a side road).

 

I suppose I could compare stopping a 20 ton boat with stopping a 20 ton truck (or even a car for that matter ) on ice....

 

Well, yes, but I can stop our boat easily within it's own length - 70' - so I'm not sure your "20-ton-truck-on-ice" analogy works.

 

Richard

[Naughty Cal]

Well, yes, but I can stop our boat easily within it's own length - 70' - so I'm not sure your "20-ton-truck-on-ice" analogy works.

 

Richard

 

Im sure most boats can stop in their own length, plus you have much more time to see the senario evolve.

[Proper Job]

Sometimes, in the evening, a spammer posts threads that may help, should you have any trouble getting one.

 

Quality I shall have to review my security settings. Nothing seems to get through to me

[luctor et emergo]

I was under the impression that it took longer to stop a boat, because the prop in reverse was not as powerfull as in forward?

See, I still have much to learn, that's why I'm following the forum closely. And apart from learning a lot, the entertainment factor is also high...

 

 

As for signals, and rules, I think you must be carefull when you deviate from the rules, and start using the 'commonly accepted' rules. The earlier analogy with headlight signals is a good case in point. The majority of the accidents that happen involve foreign drivers, who use the headlights signals as they are meant. Only foreign truckers will be familiar with the 'go ahead colleage, you have room to move' flash of the head lights, because that is a universal signal for truckers when they overtake each other. It indicates for example when the overtaking truck has cleared the other vehicle, as that can be tricky to judge just in the mirror.

Where often a problem arises is when a faster truck wants to pull out into the middle lane, and indicates to warn other road users of his intent ( I know, not strickly correct either, as you are only suposed to indicate when you are going to move, after you have checked and confirmed that their is space to do so, but hey..). Now a British car, or another truck, may well decide to ease of on the =accellerator for a moment, and give the truck some room to pull out. We indicate this by flashing our head lights. Now a continental driver, may think that the truck is going to pull out anyway, and may flasjh his head lights as a 'whoo, watch out, i'm here' warning. The truck interprets the flash as a 'go ahead' signal, pulls out, and crunch... another 4 hour moterway closure ensues..

 

It is at all times the responsibility of the person in charge of a vehicle (or craft) to be aware of the rules and to abide by them.

To be honest, I'm surprised that their is no minimum standard (with or with out a licence) of competence or knowledge required to sail/drive/pilot a boat below 72'

[howardang]

It is at all times the responsibility of the person in charge of a vehicle (or craft) to be aware of the rules and to abide by them.

To be honest, I'm surprised that their is no minimum standard (with or with out a licence) of competence or knowledge required to sail/drive/pilot a boat below 72'

I have a feeling that it's only a matter of time.......

 

Howard

[kevinw]

Does five blasts or a series of short blasts mean " collision imminent or your actions/manouvers is unclear?

 

During events in Portsmouth Harbour the cross channel ferries often give 5 short blasts to sailing boats. I always thought it meant "I'm bigger than you, get out the f'ing way!"

 

Kevin

[Guest User]

During events in Portsmouth Harbour the cross channel ferries often give 5 short blasts to sailing boats. I always thought it meant "I'm bigger than you, get out the f'ing way!"

 

Kevin

 

 

... oooh no ! What happened to "steam gives way to sail" or has that long gone ? (mind you I can see that a comparatively tiddly sailing boat is a lot more nimble than a hulking great ferry)

[Keeping Up]

Allan, you can "interpret" your understanding of the rules as long as you like but it is wrong to say what you did, and also misleading. I do understand that you are trying to help people with little knowledge of the subject but IMHO it is better to help people to learn the correct meaning. Lets face it, it,s not the theory of relativity your trying to get across!

You of course know and understand the rules fully, and find them easy to remember. So do I. But most novices don't, as some here have admitted.

 

On the canals, the only two signals a novice is likely to hear are a long blast through a bridgehole, or a pair of short blasts from an oncoming vessel who wishes to pass on the "wrong side". I cannot remember ever having heard any other signals on a canal (rivers yes, and OK perhaps the commercial canals, but on the Llangollen never).

 

Therefore I offer those novices an easy way to remember and understand what the oncoming boat (who may be myself) is saying. I stand by that; I think we must agree to differ.

[howardang]

During events in Portsmouth Harbour the cross channel ferries often give 5 short blasts to sailing boats. I always thought it meant "I'm bigger than you, get out the f'ing way!"

 

Kevin

The International collision regulations have a signal which consists of 5 short and rapid blasts. This is an excerpt from the regs, which explains why you may have heard it in Pompey Harbour:-

.....

(d) When vessels in sight of one another are approaching each other and from any cause either vessel fails to understand the intentions or actions of the other, or is in doubt whether sufficient action is being taken by the other to avoid collision, the vessel in doubt shall immediately indicate such doubt by giving at least five short and rapid blasts on the whistle. Such signal may be supplemented by a light signal of at least five short and rapid flashes. .....

 

It might also be worth mentioning that the popular misconception about "steam giving way to sail" is also a fallacy. There are number of exceptions to this in the collision regulations.

 

Howard

Edited September 24, 2009 by howardang

[Keeping Up]

... oooh no ! What happened to "steam gives way to sail" or has that long gone ? (mind you I can see that a comparatively tiddly sailing boat is a lot more nimble than a hulking great ferry)

Under certain circumstances, if you are in a full length powered narrowboat (or any which is more than 20m long) you can claim right of way over small manoevrable sailing boats. Unfortunatley the master of the average sailing dinghy probably wouldn't realise that, and the rules about doing whatever is necessary to avoid a collision would end up taking precedence

Edited September 24, 2009 by Keeping Up

[David Schweizer]

Under certain circumstances, if you are in a full length powered narrowboat (or any which is more than 20m long) you can claim right of way over small manoevrable sailing boats. Unfortunatley the master of the average sailing dinghy probably wouldn't realise that, and the rules about doing whatever is necessary to avoid a collision would end up taking precedence

And some of the wekend idiots on the Thames seem to think that the "Steam gives way to sail" convention will protect them from tacking right across the bows of a narrowboat cruising at maximum speed, Some of them can use some very colouful language when you attempt to manouvere your boat rapidly to avoid a full on collision.

[howardang]

And some of the wekend idiots on the Thames seem to think that the "Steam gives way to sail" convention will protect them from tacking right across the bows of a narrowboat cruising at maximum speed, Some of them can use some very colouful language when you attempt to manouvere your boat rapidly to avoid a full on collision.

Their epitaph goes as follows:-

 

"Here lies the body of Arthur Gray,

who died protecting his right of way.

He was right - dead right - as he sailed along;

but just as dead as if he were wrong"

Howard

[Naughty Cal]

And some of the wekend idiots on the Thames seem to think that the "Steam gives way to sail" convention will protect them from tacking right across the bows of a narrowboat cruising at maximum speed, Some of them can use some very colouful language when you attempt to manouvere your boat rapidly to avoid a full on collision.

 

Just quote this one to them:

 

" In construing and complying with these Rules due regard shall be had to all dangers of navigation and collision and to any special circumstances, including the limitations of the vessels involved, which may make a departure from these Rules necessary to avoid immediate danger."

Edited September 25, 2009 by Phylis