Death on T & M

[Naughty Cal]

Make your mind up!

 

I think we'll agree to differ because the vast majority of narrowboat owners will not be fitting ladders, stowed in concealed lockers, because the risks don't justify the expense or hassle.

 

As far as I'm concerned this proves my point but as far as you're concerned it doesn't.

 

My mind has always been made up.

 

I am happy in the knowledge i can get out of the water wherever i may fall in.

 

I have informed people of the options avaliable as was the original question.

 

If narrowboat owners are dont want to get out so be it. I dont expect that every boat owner in the UK to rush out and retro fit one. It isnt feasible to expect this. I have also never suggested this would be the case nor have i suggested people should fit them.

 

If I'm single-handed (or changing a gas bottle on my own in the middle of the night) and fall in, how will a ladder stowed in the back deck help me? Who will lower the ladder down to assist me?

 

You can lower them from with in the water. Im just digging out a photo.

Edited February 4, 2009 by Phylis

[carlt]

If I'm single-handed (or changing a gas bottle on my own in the middle of the night) and fall in, how will a ladder stowed in the back deck help me? Who will lower the ladder down to assist me?

I assume it will be stowed in a locker that opens outward, using a handle accessible from the water (one on each side?).

 

The risks involved, when the concealed steel flap opens and a rigid ladder springs out towards you, would have to be assessed, of course.

 

You can lower them from with in the water. Im just digging out a photo.

Of a steel narrowboat, with one fitted, I hope.

[Naughty Cal]

The only photo i can find with the ladder on. Not a very good one i admitt.

 

 

As i said before the design would have to be modified to suit a narrowboat but could easily be done with a little thought.

 

Just to add the ladder is at the left hand side of the rear of the boat and isnt the folded down diving platform extended in this photo.

Edited February 4, 2009 by Phylis

[Proper Job]

Narrowboats do have a thing on them to help you get out.

 

It's called a rudder and swan neck. Combined with the stern mooring line its not to difficult.

 

I've climbed out via it more times than I would like to remember (it's what comes of owning previous boats without a weed hatch rather than falling in - honest )

[Roger Gunkel]

As this thread has now been taken over by a points scoring excercise, I thought I would add a relevant point of my own. Being the owner of a seagoing boat which happens to have a permanent stern ladder arrangement and an inland waterways widebeam which doesn't I have enclosed a picture of the stern of the widebeam.

 

The rear deck is about 18" above the water and has numerous points to grab hold of to haul yourself up on. Just out of sight in the picture and a few inches below the surface of the water is a large solid square topped rudder, which is more than adequate to use as a step to climb up from in an emergency. As this is probably in common with the vast majority of narrow & widebeams, I can see no need for a ladder on this type of stern and in fact it would be very difficult to deploy because of the position of the rudder. I can see the point of a boarding ladder on a GRP boat, which would usually have much higher sides, smooth surface and more overhang.

 

 

Can we move on please

 

Roger

Edited February 4, 2009 by Roger Gunkel

[alan_fincher]

Can we move on please

I very much doubt it, don't you!

[Naughty Cal]

Appears i must be talking to myself for the majority of this thread.

 

Not only have i said the ladder could be positioned anywhere along the length of the boat i have also never stated that ladders should be fitted to narrowboats.

[blackrose]

As this thread has now been taken over by a points scoring excercise, I thought I would add a relevant point of my own. Being the owner of a seagoing boat which happens to have a permanent stern ladder arrangement and an inland waterways widebeam which doesn't I have enclosed a picture of the stern of the widebeam.

 

The rear deck is about 18" above the water and has numerous points to grab hold of to haul yourself up on. Just out of sight in the picture and a few inches below the surface of the water is a large solid square topped rudder, which is more than adequate to use as a step to climb up from in an emergency. As this is probably in common with the vast majority of narrow & widebeams, I can see no need for a ladder on this type of stern and in fact it would be very difficult to deploy because of the position of the rudder. I can see the point of a boarding ladder on a GRP boat, which would usually have much higher sides, smooth surface and more overhang.

 

 

Can we move on please

 

Roger

 

No, you're all wrong!

 

Actually I have the same stern as you Roger and when I went in on the Thames at Reading one summer (for a wash - I was fitting out and still had no shower), I was amazed at how difficult it was to get out onto the stern deck. If you add freezing cold water to that then who knows?

[Barry]

Someone asked the question "could it be done" I had a quick think and came up with yes

 

It was a quick think and I only thought about the boat moored with no engine running

 

Now I think about it again though its not such a bad idea - if you fell off the boat while motoring it would disappear into the wild blue yonder if you were single handed so you're stuck with climbing out of the canal by your own devices anyway

 

I agree with Carl that in most canals a boarding ladder may not be necessary - but what about the narrowboats on deeper waters and there must be a lot of those

 

If someone else was on the boat they could bring the boat back to you and then cut the engine while you got aboard

[carlt]

I agree with Carl that in most canals a boarding ladder may not be necessary - but what about the narrowboats on deeper waters and there must be a lot of those

 

If someone else was on the boat they could bring the boat back to you and then cut the engine while you got aboard

You equip your boat appropriately for the waters you're in (hence me mentioning grab lines, on rivers).

 

If you can't reach the bank, as long as there is one foothold and one handhold then you have enough to pull yourself back up.

 

A ladder is only necessary if you are climbing higher, which is why I have one on the lifeboat but have never bothered, on a narrowboat.

Edited February 4, 2009 by carlt

[scrumpylurcher]

Just my two pennyworth, comments that this ladder could be "anywhere down the length of the boat" are not much help if you fall in of the other side, or do we have 2 ladders each side. I climbed back on via the swan neck and rudder about 2 years ago. I slipped whilst doing this and both legs went under the rear counter. the engine was running, but it was in neutral. Friction being what it is the prop was still turning and I spent a few hours at Northampton General Hospital - if it had been in gear the result would have been far worse but I still have the scars to prove it.

My point, and it is only relevant on the canals, dont even attempt to get back on the boat, get to the bank and climb out. I would now be very wary of making for the stern unless I new the engine was stopped. I am sure most ladders are not going to be where you need them come the day, and if they are fitted they wont be where you fall in.

By all means fit one if you want one but lets not start a witchunt to make us all retrofit.

[MoominPapa]

Actually I have the same stern as you Roger and when I went in on the Thames at Reading one summer (for a wash - I was fitting out and still had no shower), I was amazed at how difficult it was to get out onto the stern deck. If you add freezing cold water to that then who knows?

Just another data point, as they say. When I fell in the Slough Arm in January (the incident of the gas bottle and the gunwhale) I was fully clothed, it was bl**dy cold, and I managed to climb out using the rudder and swan neck. BUT it was bloody hard work, and needed all my upper-body strength.

 

MP.

[Naughty Cal]

Just my two pennyworth, comments that this ladder could be "anywhere down the length of the boat" are not much help if you fall in of the other side, or do we have 2 ladders each side. I climbed back on via the swan neck and rudder about 2 years ago. I slipped whilst doing this and both legs went under the rear counter. the engine was running, but it was in neutral. Friction being what it is the prop was still turning and I spent a few hours at Northampton General Hospital - if it had been in gear the result would have been far worse but I still have the scars to prove it.

My point, and it is only relevant on the canals, dont even attempt to get back on the boat, get to the bank and climb out. I would now be very wary of making for the stern unless I new the engine was stopped. I am sure most ladders are not going to be where you need them come the day, and if they are fitted they wont be where you fall in.

By all means fit one if you want one but lets not start a witchunt to make us all retrofit.

 

Which does show the point that these "alternative" methods of getting back on the boat dont really work.

 

Yes you can fall off at any point on a boat but you can usually make it to the safe point to get back out. If you can swim to the bank you can swim to the other side of the boat.

[ChrisPy]

the main difficulty when climbing out is getting a good foothold.

maybe the answer is a simple addition to the rudder - steps irons welded to the plate on one or both sides, like in a manhole.

of course you would have to be careful if the prop was turning.

[carlt]

If you can swim to the bank you can swim to the other side of the boat.

Even if the ladder's bankside?

 

Be interesting to see how a ladder fixed "anywhere down the side of the boat" would behave in a narrow lock.

[Naughty Cal]

Even if the ladder's bankside?

 

Be interesting to see how a ladder fixed "anywhere down the side of the boat" would behave in a narrow lock.

 

If flush fitted no different to being without it.

 

Ladders fitted to bow or stern will never be bankside hence why this is the "normal" place to put them.

[carlt]

If flush fitted no different to being without it.

Flush fitting, to a 6'10" wide boat is not practical.

[Naughty Cal]

Flush fitting, to a 6'10" wide boat is not practical.

 

Why ever not.

 

It is as practical as on any other beam.

[carlt]

Why ever not.

 

It is as practical as on any other beam.

 

When you've thought carefully about your statement and realised just how silly it is, the reason ladders are impractical on narrowboats may become clear.

[Naughty Cal]

When you've thought carefully about your statement and realised just how silly it is, the reason ladders are impractical on narrowboats may become clear.

 

Maybe you will have to enlighten me

[carlt]

Maybe you will have to enlighten me

If you flush fit a ladder to the side of a boat then you lose width, inside, something which is at a bit of a premium, on a narrowboat.

 

It would affect issues like insulation, condensation and, introducing unnecessary angles and recesses, in the side of a steel boat can cause corrosion.

Edited February 4, 2009 by carlt

[Roger Gunkel]

Which does show the point that these "alternative" methods of getting back on the boat dont really work.

Sorry I don't agree with you at all here. My own experience of climbing back onto boats from ladders or bits sticking out from the boat, is that it is extremely difficult with both methods.

hing

Yes you can fall off at any point on a boat but you can usually make it to the safe point to get back out. If you can swim to the bank you can swim to the other side of the boat.

I'm afraid that I also disagree with this statement aswell. Most people who accidentally fall into the water are initially shocked and disorientated. Their natural reaction is to grab on to or try to reach the nearest thing, which on the canals is usually the bank. If the boat is still moving it could be extremely dangerous to try to get to it, both from a crushing point of view and the obvious danger of the prop. Even strong swimmers struggle with heavy clothes on and people can panic very quickly.

 

What I am also concerned about Pyllis, is your absolute conviction that you are right, inspite of your total lack of knowledge or understanding of the construction, use or handling or safety of the type of boats that most people here have, and your own lack of experience even of your own sports cruiser. To talk absolute nonsense about the greater risk of falling off the back of a narrowboat, when your own boat has a curved slippery superstructure, and is adorned with chrome rails to trip over and get ropes caught around during locking, is to fail to understand the use of different types of boats under different circumstances.

 

Roger

An armchair expert is always the greatest danger to themselves.

[Naughty Cal]

If you flush fit a ladder to the side of a boat then you lose width, inside, something which is at a bit of a premium, on a narrowboat.

 

It would affect issues like insulation, condensation and, introducing unnecessary angles and recesses, in the side of a steel boat can cause corrosion.

 

 

Here you have a typical narrowboat shell being built. There is ample room to recess the hull giving step rungs at any given place along its length. Both sides if you so wish. Then a simple symbol on the side would indicate where the steps are located.

 

Given that narrowboats travel at slow speed their movement through the water will be unaffected.

[Greybeard]

For further details please visit this link.

 

http://forum.merciamarina.co.uk/index.php?...pic=271&hl=

Edited February 4, 2009 by Greybeard

[Naughty Cal]

What I am also concerned about Pyllis, is your absolute conviction that you are right, inspite of your total lack of knowledge or understanding of the construction, use or handling or safety of the type of boats that most people here have, and your own lack of experience even of your own sports cruiser. To talk absolute nonsense about the greater risk of falling off the back of a narrowboat, when your own boat has a curved slippery superstructure, and is adorned with chrome rails to trip over and get ropes caught around during locking, is to fail to understand the use of different types of boats under different circumstances.

 

Roger

An armchair expert is always the greatest danger to themselves.

 

Thing is we dont go on the deck whilst in motion. That would be stupid. As for the curved superstructure yes the roof is curved but the floor isnt. There is no way of falling out of Cal whilst she is in motion. The deck sides are high to stop you falling in the water.

 

There is a knack to locking in a sports boat and it includes a long rope around two bollards or not tying up at all if the lock is big enough so again no tripping hazards there. I dont know what your vision of falling off Cal is but if you could share it with us im sure we would all like to know.