Death on T & M

[Naughty Cal]

The number of (human) deaths, through failing to get back aboard, does not justify a fundamental design change.

 

When the first person dies, because they tripped over their safety ladder and banged their head on a mooring bollard, will you be calling for them to be banned?

 

Far less pedestrians will die, if every car is fitted with giant sponge bumpers. Should all cars be converted immediately? It would be a greater lifesaver than ladders.

 

Flush fitting is all i have to say to that. It isnt difficult to incorporate a well that the ladder fits into with a cover. As i described earlier. Our ladder is situated where we get on and off the boat and is flush fitting into the platform.

[carlt]

And given that we dont tend to use muddy puddles much its nice to know we have a route out should we need it.

 

Thinking about that though narrowboaters probably have more chance of falling off whilst underway than cruiser owners given the driving positions.

So you accept that your position is different to the vast majority of the members here.

 

My boat has 180 airtight compartments, around the hull, so she has a better chance of staying afloat, when driven onto rocks, but I don't think narrowboats should be so equipped.

[Lee J]

How about a rope ladder?

 

Lee

[carlt]

Flush fitting is all i have to say to that. It isnt difficult to incorporate a well that the ladder fits into with a cover. As i described earlier. Our ladder is situated where we get on and off the boat and is flush fitting into the platform.

Fine, if you've got a bathing platform made out of moulded plastic where you can just modify the mould.

 

 

How about a rope ladder?

 

Lee

When moored on a river I replaced the waterside fenders with a grabline, running the length of the boat, through the fender eyes.

[Naughty Cal]

Fine, if you've got a bathing platform made out of moulded plastic where you can just modify the mould.

 

 

 

When moored on a river I replaced the waterside fenders with a grabline, running the length of the boat, through the fender eyes.

 

Your grabline is fine but does it help you get out? It helps you hold on but that is a different story. How long can you hold onto a piece of rope with cold hands and no way of getting out whilst in cold water?

 

Just to add it wouldnt be difficult to add a self draining well into the shell design of a narrowbaot either.

Edited February 4, 2009 by Phylis

[carlt]

Your grabline is fine but does it help you get out? It helps you hold on but that is a different story. How long can you hold onto a piece of rope with cold hands and no way of getting out whilst in cold water?

In 25 years I've fallen in plenty but never failed to get out. The risks do not justify a fundamental change in design of ditch crawling narrowboats.

 

I wouldn't be holding on, I'd be using the rope as a ladder to get back on board.

 

 

Just to add it wouldnt be difficult to add a self draining well into the shell design of a narrowbaot either.

But not worth the trouble.

Edited February 4, 2009 by carlt

[Naughty Cal]

In 25 years I've fallen in plenty but never failed to get out. The risks do not justify a fundamental change in design of ditch crawling narrowboats.

 

 

 

But not worth the trouble.

 

If it saves just one life it is worth the trouble. How can you say that life isnt worth saving?

[Smelly]

Sad news and unfortunately not the first time I've heard it either...

 

Reminds me of one of the best pieces of advice I've ever been given, which, considering a past propensity for falling in has served me well on a couple of occasions...

 

Take your coat off!

 

All it's doing is weighing you down, there's nothing as important in the pockets as you are. It'll make little difference if you're stuck in the water anyway and might help you get unstuck.

[carlt]

If it saves just one life it is worth the trouble. How can you say that life isnt worth saving?

What rubbish!

 

There are far more safety improvements, that would save far more lives, that will never be implemented.

 

Have you never heard of risk assessment?

[Naughty Cal]

What rubbish!

 

There are far more safety improvements, that would save far more lives, that will never be implemented.

 

Have you never heard of risk assessment?

 

I have. Oddly enough I have a pile of risk assessments here to wade through and approve.

 

Its nice to know that you dont feel getting out of the water is a high priority. I dont think the families of those that have died will agree with you though.

 

How would you feel if a member of your family died because they couldnt get out of the water?

[carlt]

I have. Oddly enough I have a pile of risk assessments here to wade through and approve.

 

Its nice to know that you dont feel getting out of the water is a high priority. I dont think the families of those that have died will agree with you though.

 

How would you feel if a member of your family died because they couldnt get out of the water?

How would you feel if a member of your family got hit by a car, without giant foam bumpers, and died? A far more likely occurrence.

[Naughty Cal]

How would you feel if a member of your family got hit by a car, without giant foam bumpers, and died? A far more likely occurrence.

 

But it isnt one that could be avoided. I cant give every member of my family a "device" that will make them immune to being hit by cars.

 

I can give every member of my family who visits my boat the oppurtunity to get out of the water should they be unlucky enough to fall in.

 

Risk Assessment?

[carlt]

But it isnt one that could be avoided. I cant give every member of my family a "device" that will make them immune to being hit by cars.

 

I can give every member of my family who visits my boat the oppurtunity to get out of the water should they be unlucky enough to fall in.

 

Risk Assessment?

It's quite easy to equip every car with pedestrian friendly bumpers. I'm amazed you haven't got them, considering the greater risk to life, than falling into the water.

[Naughty Cal]

It's quite easy to equip every car with pedestrian friendly bumpers. I'm amazed you haven't got them, considering the greater risk to life, than falling into the water.

 

All modern cars are fitted with pedestrian friendly bumpers. They have to meet very strict regulations.

[carlt]

All modern cars are fitted with pedestrian friendly bumpers. They have to meet very strict regulations.

That's why pedestrians no longer die, of course.

 

Modern bumpers are a compromise and the fish plates fitted to the counters of new narrowboats are also a compromise which is a safety improvement that is less obtrusive and easier to fit than a ladder.

[Naughty Cal]

That's why pedestrians no longer die, of course.

 

Modern bumpers are a compromise and the fish plates fitted to the counters of new narrowboats are also a compromise which is a safety improvement that is less obtrusive and easier to fit than a ladder.

 

If we back track a few posts you say that it isnt worth changing the design of narrowboats. Now you are saying that the new improvements are a good thing. Make up you mind.

[koukouvagia]

Have you never heard of risk assessment?

 

During a freezing cold November I managed stupidly to run over the long line from the butty and get it well and truly wound round the blade. No amount of jiggling with the shaft worked and going in to the cut was out of the question. The only way was for me to accept a tow to the nearest lock and gently rest the boat on the cill. By this time a crowd of onlookers had arrived in time to see me neatly and efficiently free the rope. Success and plaudits all round. But then the problem. It was in the days before risk assessments and I’d forgotten to make a plan on how I was going to get back onto the boat.

Memo to self. If ever you do that again, make sure you’ve got a rope to haul yourself back on board.

Edited February 4, 2009 by koukouvagia

[carlt]

If we back track a few posts you say that it isnt worth changing the design of narrowboats. Now you are saying that the new improvements are a good thing. Make up you mind.

Fishplates have been around for years, I had some on a 1937 butty, I owned.

[Naughty Cal]

Fishplates have been around for years, I had some on a 1937 butty, I owned.

 

Sure they were new at some point. Still are they worth it? According to your theory no.

[carlt]

Sure they were new at some point. Still are they worth it? According to your theory no.

No, I think ladders aren't worth it because they involve too much adaptation, from the original design.

 

If you want to argue about fishplates, however, I believe they are a simple, unobtrusive and inexpensive add-on which may save lives but irrelevant to the discussion about ladders.

[Naughty Cal]

No, I think ladders aren't worth it because they involve too much adaptation, from the original design.

 

If you want to argue about fishplates, however, I believe they are a simple, unobtrusive and inexpensive add-on which may save lives but irrelevant to the discussion about ladders.

 

Much the same as car bumpers then?

[carlt]

Much the same as car bumpers then?

Precisely my point, Phylis. Huge foam bumpers are a silly, over the top add-on which will undoubtably save more lives than the current compromise; just like ladders and fish-plates, on a nrrowboat.

[Naughty Cal]

Precisely my point, Phylis. Huge foam bumpers are a silly, over the top add-on which will undoubtably save more lives than the current compromise; just like ladders and fish-plates, on a nrrowboat.

 

No No you mistake me a car bumper has nothing to do with a ladder.

 

Ladders on new narrowboats would be a sensible safety addition and need not be obtrusive or visible.

[carlt]

Much the same as car bumpers then?

Make your mind up!

 

I think we'll agree to differ because the vast majority of narrowboat owners will not be fitting ladders, stowed in concealed lockers, because the risks don't justify the expense or hassle.

 

As far as I'm concerned this proves my point but as far as you're concerned it doesn't.

[Neil@CanalVoyagers]

If I'm single-handed (or changing a gas bottle on my own in the middle of the night) and fall in, how will a ladder stowed in the back deck help me? Who will lower the ladder down to assist me?