Red and White

[Roger Gunkel]

I'm amazed that anyone on the forum still thinks that red and white diesel are basically the same , particularly after all the discussion over diesel heaters and fuel quality over the last couple of years. There have been details published from fuel company specs, various knowledgeable input and proof that various heaters will not run properly on red diesel because of the lower spec. A court case has even been won and well publicised for this very reason.

 

I'm just off to warn CarlT that if he takes his boat out of sight of land, he will fall off the edge of the world.

 

Roger

[Gary Peacock]

Said it before say it again, I worked with bulk fuel storage and delivery and gas oil and DERV were not the same product.

[Bob the welder]

Said it before say it again, I worked with bulk fuel storage and delivery and gas oil and DERV were not the same product.

Nice poem Gary.

[alan_fincher]

Said it before say it again, I worked with bulk fuel storage and delivery and gas oil and DERV were not the same product.

One of the confusions is that, plus or minus the dye, they once were.

 

(I worked on oil terminal stock control systems, so am 100% certain of that).

 

However that was a very, very long while ago, and whilst road diesel has become much more sophisticated since then, good old fashioned "standard" gas oil has not.

 

Like Roger, after all the debate I find it remarkable that people still say the two products are identical - unless it's an ultra low sulphur gas oil used for the 'red' then emphatically they are not the same thing.

 

There was debate earlier in another thread about using "I believe" or "I think" rather than "I know" or "this is fact". In this case this is fact! Definite !!

 

Alan

[ditchcrawler]

... and when I read the title I thought this was to be about wine and was going to say "Yes - it makes Rosé!"

I must admit I did the same

[David]

Said it before say it again, I worked with bulk fuel storage and delivery and gas oil and DERV were not the same product.

 

Hi

It won't make any difference Gary, I've posted the technical spec sheets on here for Rebated Diesel fuel oil actually specifically stated on the spec sheet as being "otherwise known as Gas Oil", also Low Sulpher Gas Oil rebated duty fuel oil which is nearly the same as "White Derv" BUT is not generally available, except as a bulk supply and as you know and have pointed out in the past is not sold by any outlet you know that sell "Red" and for Derv full duty fuel oil and they are a great deal different. Derv "White" has to comply with EN590 and all the ways of testing for Cetain, Ash, Carbon residue etc etc to arrive at complying with EN590 are more stringent beside being to a higher level. Gas Oil only has to comply with BS2869 and it's test for complience with BS2869 are carried out to the lower older BS set of tests.

[David Schweizer]

David's post explains what I have always understood the difference to be without being able to explain it myself. Basicly I have always understoopd red diesel to be a slightly lower grade than white with more sulphur, which is needed to lubricate the injection pump on some older engines.

 

I have also understood that whilst these older engines need the lower "Gas Oil" diesel to provide the neccessary lubrication, modern engines will run on either although there may be a little improvement in performance and smoke emmission if white diesel is used.

 

But not being an expert, I could be wrong.

Edited November 5, 2008 by David Schweizer

[Hairy-Neil]

All that said, you're unlikely to notice the slightest difference in any boat engine.

 

There was talk in the classic motoring press some years ago that 'older' engines would suffer if run on ultra low sulphur diesel. However, I guess it was somewhat alarmist as I've yet to hear of serious troubles caused by its use in older vehicles.

[Nickhlx]

All that said, you're unlikely to notice the slightest difference in any boat engine.

 

There was talk in the classic motoring press some years ago that 'older' engines would suffer if run on ultra low sulphur diesel. However, I guess it was somewhat alarmist as I've yet to hear of serious troubles caused by its use in older vehicles.

 

 

Quite ! What do people run old diesel car engines on then ? I bet it is not Red diesel...

 

Nick

[DameEdna]

You then go on to explain the difference

 

 

Yes, I did - in response to the (red coloured) "Are you sure ?" you inserted in my post.

 

Did I miss something ?

[DameEdna]

I'm amazed that anyone on the forum still thinks that red and white diesel are basically the same

There have been details published from fuel company specs, various knowledgeable input and proof that various heaters will not run properly on red diesel because of the lower spec. A court case has even been won and well publicised for this very reason.

Roger

 

But, Red and White Diesel are "basically" the same. They come from the same hydrocarbon chains. Ignoring the colour for a moment (which is an additive), the only difference is that White Diesel (in the UK) has a lower sulphur content, 500ppm (or less in ULSD), than the 2000ppm in Red. It burns differently as a consequence. This burn characteristic and the inherent contaminates produce more carbon deposit which over time, unless the device is designed to dispose of the contamination, will stop it working correctly.

Engines are not that sensitive.

Some heaters may well be.

 

The low sulphur content is a new thing too and is only true of White here, in Europe, and the US. In other parts of the world the only difference is the added colour. Australia and NZ's Diesel has around 3000ppm (up to 5000ppm I read) and Turkey still allow 7000ppm.

 

Ref

<http://auto.howstuffworks.com/question105.htm>

<http://www.americanturkishcouncil.org/events/cleanenergy/pdf/WednesdayBallroom1/AcarGurol_2008CleanEnergy.pdf>

<http://www.abc.net.au/health/features/stories/2003/07/03/1835282.htm>

<http://www.dieselnet.com/standards/us/fuel.php>

 

The long and short of this is that the lower the sulphur content of heavy oil fuel, the less harmful it is to the environment, the engine and the human being that is in contact with the fumes ...

[bottle]

Yes, I did - in response to the (red coloured) "Are you sure ?" you inserted in my post.

 

Did I miss something ?

 

Red diesel is white diesel with a dye (chemical marker) added.

 

Red diesel is identical to heating oil and "almost" identical to white.

 

From two of your posts, that is what I picked up on.

 

Extrapolating from that, heating oil is the same as 'white' diesel.

 

I don't think so.

Edited November 6, 2008 by bottle

[PeterF]

... and when I read the title I thought this was to be about wine and was going to say "Yes - it makes Rosé!"

 

I must admit I did the same

 

Lightening things up, a few years ago I was at a meal at a busines conference and I was asked by the young waitress what wine I would like. So I said I would start with some of the white then have some red. So she half filled my glass with white wine and then topped it up with red . The 8 of us on the table just sat there stunned. We had a good laugh when she had left and I drank it up so yes they do mix. Poor lass obviously had not been given any training really.

 

PeterF

[Nickhlx]

But, Red and White Diesel are "basically" the same. They come from the same hydrocarbon chains. Ignoring the colour for a moment (which is an additive), the only difference is that White Diesel (in the UK) has a lower sulphur content, 500ppm (or less in ULSD), than the 2000ppm in Red. It burns differently as a consequence. This burn characteristic and the inherent contaminates produce more carbon deposit which over time, unless the device is designed to dispose of the contamination, will stop it working correctly.

Engines are not that sensitive.

Some heaters may well be.

 

The low sulphur content is a new thing too and is only true of White here, in Europe, and the US. In other parts of the world the only difference is the added colour. Australia and NZ's Diesel has around 3000ppm (up to 5000ppm I read) and Turkey still allow 7000ppm.

 

Ref

<http://auto.howstuffworks.com/question105.htm>

<http://www.americanturkishcouncil.org/events/cleanenergy/pdf/WednesdayBallroom1/AcarGurol_2008CleanEnergy.pdf>

<http://www.abc.net.au/health/features/stories/2003/07/03/1835282.htm>

<http://www.dieselnet.com/standards/us/fuel.php>

 

The long and short of this is that the lower the sulphur content of heavy oil fuel, the less harmful it is to the environment, the engine and the human being that is in contact with the fumes ...

 

 

Whilst the above is mainly true, ( ULSD is less than 50ppm not 500ppm !) I think the point is that DERV is of a higher and more consistent quality, and is much lower in sulphur content ( whether that is good or bad depends on your engine and attitude to pollution ).

 

Around Reading in the south, the price of DERV is currently around 106p / litre, whereas on the canalside, Red is around 85p + 42p = 127p / litre for propulsion, - this is for a lower quality fuel of questionable quality.

 

With a 300 litre tank for propulsion, apart from the quality issue, you are paying some £60 more per fill-up for this poorer fuel which some have cited may be causing heating problems and definitely does have more polluting qualities. Depending on your physical ability to carry a jerry can- say one or two a week, depending on your activity, and if you can be bothered, there are savings to be made in money, definitely, and possibly or probably in maintenace / hassle on some diesel heaters.

 

28 Second kerosene for heating, is currently 44.5 p a litre, burns cleanly and I know does work ( maybe preferred) in some/many "diesel" heaters - this will approx halve heating costs, again for those who can be bothered (and I can !)

 

Nick

Edited November 6, 2008 by Nickhlx

[Gary Peacock]

For heating purposes if you have two tanks kerosene is probably a good way forward we have supplied it for years for use with the popular mini pressure jet heaters and they run very cleanly on it compared to gas oil.

 

Strangely it seems to be a local thing, although it is very common around here if you mention it elsewhere people look at you like your suggesting running the things on rocket fuel!

[ditchcrawler]

Whilst the above is mainly true, ( ULSD is less than 50ppm not 500ppm !) I think the point is that DERV is of a higher and more consistent quality, and is much lower in sulphur content ( whether that is good or bad depends on your engine and attitude to pollution ).

 

Around Reading in the south, the price of DERV is currently around 106p / litre, whereas on the canalside, Red is around 85p + 42p = 127p / litre for propulsion, - this is for a lower quality fuel of questionable quality.

 

With a 300 litre tank for propulsion, apart from the quality issue, you are paying some £60 more per fill-up for this poorer fuel which some have cited may be causing heating problems and definitely does have more polluting qualities. Depending on your physical ability to carry a jerry can- say one or two a week, depending on your activity, and if you can be bothered, there are savings to be made in money, definitely, and possibly or probably in maintenace / hassle on some diesel heaters.

 

28 Second kerosene for heating, is currently 44.5 p a litre, burns cleanly and I know does work ( maybe preferred) in some/many "diesel" heaters - this will approx halve heating costs, again for those who can be bothered (and I can !)

 

Nick

I have a diesel cooking stove on the boat that also acts as a room heater and when it became obvious about the change in duty I did consider fitting a second tank and running the stove on cheaper heating oil, this was for two reasons, 1 I did not expect to be able to buy read canal side. 2 If I have to carry it I may as well carry the cheapest and easiest obtainable fuel.

Being a lazy gent, I ill stick with one tank and declare a split.

[David Schweizer]

Whilst the above is mainly true, ( ULSD is less than 50ppm not 500ppm !) I think the point is that DERV is of a higher and more consistent quality, and is much lower in sulphur content ( whether that is good or bad depends on your engine and attitude to pollution ).

Around Reading in the south, the price of DERV is currently around 106p / litre, whereas on the canalside, Red is around 85p + 42p = 127p / litre for propulsion, - this is for a lower quality fuel of questionable quality.

 

With a 300 litre tank for propulsion, apart from the quality issue, you are paying some £60 more per fill-up for this poorer fuel which some have cited may be causing heating problems and definitely does have more polluting qualities. Depending on your physical ability to carry a jerry can- say one or two a week, depending on your activity, and if you can be bothered, there are savings to be made in money, definitely, and possibly or probably in maintenace / hassle on some diesel heaters.

 

28 Second kerosene for heating, is currently 44.5 p a litre, burns cleanly and I know does work ( maybe preferred) in some/many "diesel" heaters - this will approx halve heating costs, again for those who can be bothered (and I can !)

 

Nick

 

White Diesel 101.99p per litre in Trowbridge yesterday, 125p and 85p at local marina.

Edited November 6, 2008 by David Schweizer

[alan_fincher]

White Diesel 101.99p per litre in Trowbridge yesterday, 125p and 85p at local marina.

Well unless some bright spark is going to tell us a marina can chose a different price before duty and VAT for propulsion and "other" diesel, I can't see how those prices can be right.

 

The additional duty now payable on propulsion diesel is 40.66 pence, to which has to be added 5% VAT., so the differential in retail price should be 42.69 pence, (or 43 p in round numbers). By charging a difference of 40 p implies they are not selling the product at the same rate before duty and VAT, which once again sounds wrong to me.

 

You are lucky to live somewhere where garage DERV is only 102 p !

[Hairy-Neil]

You are lucky to live somewhere where garage DERV is only 102 p !

 

Petrol is dearer than that at my nearest garage....

[David Schweizer]

Well unless some bright spark is going to tell us a marina can chose a different price before duty and VAT for propulsion and "other" diesel, I can't see how those prices can be right.

 

The additional duty now payable on propulsion diesel is 40.66 pence, to which has to be added 5% VAT., so the differential in retail price should be 42.69 pence, (or 43 p in round numbers). By charging a difference of 40 p implies they are not selling the product at the same rate before duty and VAT, which once again sounds wrong to me.

You are lucky to live somewhere where garage DERV is only 102 p !

Yes that has occured to me, but it did not register at the time.

 

Yes 101.99 at Tescos, and that is before the 5p off voucher is applied !! But isnt that why you lot get the London, or Outer London allowance? Mind you Tescos prices can change more than once in the same day at the moment, they tend to track the cheapest private garage locally and could well go up today!

 

 

 

Petrol is dearer than that at my nearest garage....

Petrol 96.5p per litre!! Not the nearest garage but about 4 miles away. Local garage 99.9p per litre.

Edited November 6, 2008 by David Schweizer

[Nickhlx]

Well unless some bright spark is going to tell us a marina can chose a different price before duty and VAT for propulsion and "other" diesel, I can't see how those prices can be right.

 

The additional duty now payable on propulsion diesel is 40.66 pence, to which has to be added 5% VAT., so the differential in retail price should be 42.69 pence, (or 43 p in round numbers). By charging a difference of 40 p implies they are not selling the product at the same rate before duty and VAT, which once again sounds wrong to me.

 

You are lucky to live somewhere where garage DERV is only 102 p !

 

 

As long as the correct duty (42.69 p / ltr) is being accounted for within the propulsion rate of 125p/ltr, that would imply he should be selling the heating fuel at ( 125 - 42.69) p / ltr = 82.31p/ltr - however can he not sell heating fuel at whatever he likes, whether it be this, or 70p, 80p or 90p a litre ? - no law against that

 

There is no compulsion to maintain a 42.69 differential, just to charge duty on the element being used for propulsion and correctly account for it - It only costs him 50p/litre or less without the duty.

 

The suggested split of 60/40 is for a single tank for heating and propulsion, but as others have been at pains to point out, you can declare what you want but be prepared to justify it and pay the correct duty/VAT on the propulsion element of it.

 

Nice business to do people with, I reckon ...

 

Nick

[mikevye]

On the southern side of Heathrow airport is an Esso (IIRC) fuel distribution depot. In there is a huge tank of diesel where tankers from all sorts of places fill up - Esso, BP, Tesco etc. Next to this tank is a smaller tank of red dye for when they send out untaxed diesel.

 

Now, draw your own conclusions about what you buy both on Tesco's forecourt (as there are lots of rumours about supermarket fuel being different/inferior) as well as from the 'red' diesel pump. It is all the same stuff. ...there anyway.

 

Chris

 

In a former life I had the dubious pleasure of owning a garage specializing in engine tuning. Asda introduced ICI petrol to the market and I obtained a substantial amount of business from this as engines wouldn't run properly on this fuel without adjustment the major problem being "pinking". Turned out that the fuel was actually a byproduct of what ICI actually wanted and the product disappeared from the market. No one can convince me that products in the same catergory are identical if the specifications are legally allowed to vary. Even a saving of 1p/litre is a substantial amount over millions of gallons

[furnessvale]

As long as the correct duty (42.69 p / ltr) is being accounted for within the propulsion rate of 125p/ltr, that would imply he should be selling the heating fuel at ( 125 - 42.69) p / ltr = 82.31p/ltr - however can he not sell heating fuel at whatever he likes, whether it be this, or 70p, 80p or 90p a litre ? - no law against that

 

There is no compulsion to maintain a 42.69 differential, just to charge duty on the element being used for propulsion and correctly account for it - It only costs him 50p/litre or less without the duty.

 

The suggested split of 60/40 is for a single tank for heating and propulsion, but as others have been at pains to point out, you can declare what you want but be prepared to justify it and pay the correct duty/VAT on the propulsion element of it.

 

Nice business to do people with, I reckon ...

 

Nick

As a former supplier of red diesel (coal boat Alton) I could forsee the situation where the market would bear a slight increase in the price of heating red to cross subsidise a reduction in the price of propulsion red to maintain sales. In that case the apparent application of duty would be less than 42.69 but it would be 42.69 nevertheless.

 

George

[GeoffS]

Sorry Geoff

 

Being a bit obtuse, the reason is that in certain ways it is illegal to use red, ie. in a car used on the road.

 

Using in the boat you could do it any way you wished.

 

Sorry Yes I was being slow, I realised later that you probably meant putting Red in cars!

 

I just wanted to know if, when my marina starts selling White only (at little different price to a 60/40 Red split), whether I can just add straight to the tank. Also what about additives such as Fuelset? Can they/should they still be used/needed?

[DameEdna]

Whilst the above is mainly true, ( ULSD is less than 50ppm not 500ppm !) I think the point is that DERV is of a higher and more consistent quality

 

Around Reading in the south, the price of DERV is currently around 106p / litre, whereas on the canalside, Red is around 85p + 42p = 127p / litre for propulsion, - this is for a lower quality fuel of questionable quality.

 

28 Second kerosene for heating, is currently 44.5 p a litre, burns cleanly and I know does work ( maybe preferred) in some/many "diesel" heaters - this will approx halve heating costs, again for those who can be bothered (and I can !)

Nick

 

 

Sorry - added an extra zero there (well spotted).

 

I think this is the crux of the matter. Canal side Red is obviously (from what everyone is saying) low quality and the price being charged does seem to be excessive. I guess this is due to commercial reasoning, ie lower volume sales etc and perhaps a little greed on the side .....

 

Kerosene is not far off Diesel (it's lighter) but is closer to Petrol than Diesel and is very similar to Paraffin and aeroplane fuel (Avtur).

Boom Boom Boom Boom Esso Blue ?

 

 

 

 

I just wanted to know if, when my marina starts selling White only whether I can just add straight to the tank.

 

 

Yes. You can.