cost of diesel

[Machpoint005]

For the sake of accuracy, people are getting killed by standing in the way of criminals in pick-up trucks. This is nothing to do with fuel prices and everything to do with criminality. They'll pinch what there is a market for. 20 years ago it was car stereos. Last year it was satellite navigation systems. Now it's fuel.

[jeb]

For the sake of accuracy, people are getting killed by standing in the way of criminals in pick-up trucks. This is nothing to do with fuel prices and everything to do with criminality. They'll pinch what there is a market for. 20 years ago it was car stereos. Last year it was satellite navigation systems. Now it's fuel.

 

If its for the sake of accuracy then please be accurate.

[carlt]

If its for the sake of accuracy then please be accurate.

I think the person died because she was being robbed, not because of what was being stolen.

 

The man was injured because he attempted to stop a pick-up, with his hip.

 

The injuries would have been the same if the thieves were trying to escape with lead from the roof, or anything else, for that matter.

[nbfiresprite]

I quoted £1.70 + (Plus)

 

Added 12.5% vat to the starting figure (Present fuel price with Vat at 5%)

 

Duty increase at 47p + the 2p rise in November + Vat at 17.5%

 

Added in fuel price rise over the next few months (Oil price at over $210).

 

At the way the price of oil is going, We may be facing a price of over £2.00

 

Firesprite

(For Oil price read $120) Oil price now $138

 

Also most people on the forum are not increasing the vat from the current 5%

up to 17.5% in their fiqures.

 

for the record Foxes Marina have increase the price to £1.10, a increase of 26p in a month.

 

Based on the six week timescale with oil, In six weeks time the price will be + - £1.35

 

Firesprite

[bottle]

Got diesel at Aynho (Oxford) last week for 85p a litre.

 

Has anyone noticed that the rise in cost has slowed at the pumps (road).

 

Has been the same for at least a week round here.

[Ex- Member]

Got diesel at Aynho (Oxford) last week for 85p a litre.

 

Has anyone noticed that the rise in cost has slowed at the pumps (road).

 

Has been the same for at least a week round here.

 

That says something when a week is considered as a long period between price rises Unfortunately though, that's how it is nowadays. It hasn't gone up here either Morrisons currently 119 petrol and 1.32 diesel same as last week. However Barrel price is up so fuel will follow as always

[dor]

But how much of the fuel cost increase (for roads) is due to the fuel companies holding back to try and avoid going over £1 per litre. When that barrier was finally broken, there weren't huge protests so the oil companies thought "whooppee" and whacked up the price as fast as they thought they could get away with, blaming it on crude prices. The marinas can then follow the trend saying, "well look at the price of road fuel".

 

Sorry my cynical streak breaking through again.

[Ex- Member]

But how much of the fuel cost increase (for roads) is due to the fuel companies holding back to try and avoid going over £1 per litre. When that barrier was finally broken, there weren't huge protests so the oil companies thought "whooppee" and whacked up the price as fast as they thought they could get away with, blaming it on crude prices. The marinas can then follow the trend saying, "well look at the price of road fuel".

 

Sorry my cynical streak breaking through again.

 

I wouldn't apologise for being cynical You can bet that when oil company profits are announced, they won't be suffering from any big drop in profits, whereas most companies and small businesses in this country will, and that's if they manage to survive and make any profit at all. Same with banks and supermarkets utilities ect they'll all do pretty well I'm sure

[bottle]

But how much of the fuel cost increase (for roads) is due to the fuel companies holding back to try and avoid going over £1 per litre. When that barrier was finally broken, there weren't huge protests so the oil companies thought "whooppee" and whacked up the price as fast as they thought they could get away with, blaming it on crude prices. The marinas can then follow the trend saying, "well look at the price of road fuel".

 

Sorry my cynical streak breaking through again.

 

Not cynical at all, my thoughts are the same.

[Ex- Member]

Someone told us earlier today that oil would reach $250 a barrel by Jan 2009 this came from the same guy who told us 3 months ago that oil would reach $130 a barrel when it did. May last month. He originally told us this in early march. If he's right again that could mean petrol around 2.30 per litre Well over £10 a gallon, and of course diesel even more.

 

I googled this earlier. "$250 a barrel coming soon" and was surprised how widly this is predicted by some very competant sourses.

 

Some very interesting thoughts on why also.

[nbfiresprite]

Got diesel at Aynho (Oxford) last week for 85p a litre.

 

Has anyone noticed that the rise in cost has slowed at the pumps (road).

 

Has been the same for at least a week round here.

 

The local garage in station road, March (1/2 mile from the Town moorings

is selling Gas Oil for 87p (Foxes Marina two miles away is selling at £1.10).

 

On another item Road diesel and Gas oil price before Vat and Duty.

 

Road Diesel £1.30 - Vat at 17.5% 19p - fuel duty 48p = 63p

 

Gas oil £1.10 - Vat at 5% 5p - fuel duty 8p = 97p

 

Now who agrees we are keeping the forecourt price down by being charged more for a poorer fuel.

 

 

Firesprite (Now walking up to the garage with two jerry cans)

[alan_fincher]

Road Diesel £1.30 - Vat at 17.5% 19p - fuel duty 48p = 63p

It doesn't affect the thrust of your argument, but I don't believe your numbers are quite correct.

 

Duty on ULS Road diesel was 50.35 pence per litre, the last time I looked, I think.

 

Alan

 

Edit:

 

And fuel duty on "red" is I think currently 9.69 per litre.

Edited July 3, 2008 by alan_fincher

[alan_fincher]

I reckon....

 

ULS DERV for road use selling at (say) 130 pence per litre.

 

Price before tax is 60.29 pence per litre.

 

60.29 + 50.35 duty = 110.64

 

110.64 + 17.5% VAT = 130 ppl. (Price after fuel duty and VAT)

 

So if we price "red" gas oil before tax at the same amount of 60.29, (and it should be lower cost than ULS DERV), then the same sum currently works out as

 

60.29 + 9.69 rebated duty = 69.98

 

69.98 + 5% (lower rate) VAT = 73.48 pence per litre. (Theoretical price after fuel duty and VAT).

 

So that is markedly less than the garage is selling the gas oil for, let alone the eye-watering price at the marina.

 

Of course a marina, usually buying in small quantities, via authorised distributors, rather than the oil majors, can't hope to get the same deals on what it buys as a garage taking whole tanker-loads of DERV at a time.

 

But even so the apparent difference of 36 pence per litre between the "theoretical" built up price above, and what Foxes are charging, really does take some explaining!

[Scotty]

The local garage in station road, March (1/2 mile from the Town moorings

is selling Gas Oil for 87p (Foxes Marina two miles away is selling at £1.10).

 

Firesprite (Now walking up to the garage with two jerry cans)

Thanks for that, I didn't realise they sold Gas Oil there.

 

I hope their price remains lower than Fox's

[Ex- Member]

The actual duty on canal diesel will be £0.54.68 from November assuming they couninue selling the same diesel.

 

I did some calculations earlier in this thread. Basically what ever the cheapest price a marina is charging the day before the new duty is implemented, add at least £0.55p

 

Based on the 2 prices mentioned by firesprite

 

 

The local garage in station road, March (1/2 mile from the Town moorings

is selling Gas Oil for 87p (Foxes Marina two miles away is selling at £1.10).

 

Then the cheaper would be charging £1.42 and the dearer £1.65 per litre.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I posted this on another Diesel thread recently.

 

As the duty on diesel will rise in November in real terms by £0.47p per litre which is also liable to v.a.t = 55,22p So what a marina charges today bearing in mind they're happy with their current profit margin, then adding the 55.22p rise on to their current price today, is what it would cost if we were suddenly under the new deisel duty regime. So 90p per litre would become £1.45 per litre at the very minimum. This is around 15p dearer than road diesel at the moment.

 

So if the day before the November change a marina is charging £1.00 the following day it will be £1.55 minimum unless the marina drops it's profit level.

 

So the actual increase is £0.55p

[alan_fincher]

The actual duty on canal diesel will be £0.54.68 from November assuming they couninue selling the same diesel.

 

I did some calculations earlier in this thread. Basically what ever the cheapest price a marina is charging the day before the new duty is implemented, add at least £0.55p

 

Hi Julian

 

I'm also trying to do the maths, not helped by really struggling to find consistent government sources with the exact duty rates on....

 

I'm assuming that on November the 1st not only will the rebated rate of fuel duty end, but also the charging of lower rate VAT - do I have that right, please ?

 

 

I think ULS DERV is currently taxed at 50.35 with full VAT on top, (but rising to 52.35 on 1st Oct ?)

 

Red is taxed at 9.69 but with only 5% VAT on top, (but rising to 10.07 on 1st Oct)

 

 

So if somewhere is currently selling red gas oil at 90p, then I reckon I reckon that's made up as follows....

 

76p (before tax) + 9.69 (tax) = 85.69 + VAT (5%) = 90p

 

 

So after 1st November, if the whole lot were taxed, and the higher VAT charged

 

76p (before tax) + 52.35 (tax) = 128.35 + VAT (17.5%) = 151p (which would be 61 pence per litre more )

 

 

But if they go for an 80%/20% "Propulsion/Other" spit, the duty would "only" be 41.88 ppl.

 

76p (before tax) + 41.88 (reduced tax) = 117.88 + VAT (17.5%) = 138.5.

 

 

So on that "80/20" split, the increase based on a current litre price of 90p would still be 48.5 pence.

 

Yes, I've convinced myself - I do agree your numbers, (unfortunately).

[Ex- Member]

Hi Julian

 

I'm also trying to do the maths, not helped by really struggling to find consistent government sources with the exact duty rates on....

 

I'm assuming that on November the 1st not only will the rebated rate of fuel duty end, but also the charging of lower rate VAT - do I have that right, please ?

 

 

I think ULS DERV is currently taxed at 50.35 with full VAT on top, (but rising to 52.35 on 1st Oct ?)

 

Red is taxed at 9.69 but with only 5% VAT on top, (but rising to 10.07 on 1st Oct)

 

 

So if somewhere is currently selling red gas oil at 90p, then I reckon I reckon that's made up as follows....

 

76p (before tax) + 9.69 (tax) = 85.69 + VAT (5%) = 90p

 

 

So after 1st November, if the whole lot were taxed, and the higher VAT charged

 

76p (before tax) + 52.35 (tax) = 128.35 + VAT (17.5%) = 151p (which would be 61 pence per litre more )

 

 

But if they go for an 80%/20% "Propulsion/Other" spit, the duty would "only" be 41.88 ppl.

 

76p (before tax) + 41.88 (reduced tax) = 117.88 + VAT (17.5%) = 138.5.

 

 

So on that "80/20" split, the increase based on a current litre price of 90p would still be 48.5 pence.

 

Yes, I've convinced myself - I do agree your numbers, (unfortunately).

 

Hi al

 

My calculations were specifically for canal diesel which HMRS are letting boaters stick with. The duty rate on this has already been fixed for the duty rise in November. It's actually £0.56.94 and not £0.54.68 as i said earlier.

 

However the current duty we pay is 9.69ppl deduct this from the new rate fixed rate of £0.56.94 and the increase in duty equates to (47.25ppl) from November. However this increase is liable for V.A.T which equates to 55.5p

 

Now that's the minimum increase on canal diesel we currently use. The rate of £0.56.94 per litre is fixed, it cannot change unless done so in the finance bill, which i belive is done and dusted.

 

However HMRC will let boaters purchase 20 possibly 30% of the diesel we buy at the full duty rate, at the current rate of duty 9.69ppl , or basically wha boaters are paying today. I think even this duty rate is about to rise by a couple of pence though.

 

http://www.mbmclub.com/auto/newsdesk/20080...014mbmnews.html

 

I found the current duty levels on fuel from HMRC here.

 

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/budget2007/bn53.htm

[alan_fincher]

I found the current duty levels on fuel from HMRC here.

 

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/budget2007/bn53.htm

Hi Julian,

 

I don't think those numbers from the 2007 budget proposals are quite the way it actually went, or is still going..... (But I could be wrong!).

 

If you look at this alternative government document.....

 

http://customs.hmrc.gov.uk/channelsPortalW...CE_PROD1_027232

 

[budget 2008 HM Revenue and Customs HYDROCARBON OILS: DUTY RATES CHANGES AND RATES SIMPLIFICATION (dated 12th Mar 2008)]

 

Then it shows the fuel duty on "Heavy oil which is not Ultra low sulphur diesel (ULSD) or Sulphur-free diesel (SFD), i.e. conventional diesel" as having been 56.94 ppl before 1 Apr 2008, but actually reducing on that date to 50.35 to bring it in line with ULS diesel.

 

So, unless this document was not actually implemented, I think all fully taxed heavy oil or DERV, whether ULS or not ,now attracts a duty of 50.35 ppl.

 

That duty is shown as rising to 52.35 ppl on October 1st.

 

These are the duty rates I've used, so I'd be interested if someone can show they are wrong.

 

However there is an error in my sums. I have forgotten that whatever proportion of the fuel is classed as "non propulsion" will still attract duty at a lower rate. Where I get confused is whether that bit will also still attract VAT at a lower rate. I've failed to turn up consistent information at this level of detail. So I don't think I could come up with an answer that is definitely the definitive one, without better information.

[nbfiresprite]

I reckon....

 

 

Of course a marina, usually buying in small quantities, via authorised distributors, rather than the oil majors, can't hope to get the same deals on what it buys as a garage taking whole tanker-loads of DERV at a time.

 

But even so the apparent difference of 36 pence per litre between the "theoretical" built up price above, and what Foxes are charging, really does take some explaining!

 

The garage Gas oil tank is the same size as Foxes and that Foxes has a higher throughput with Gas oil sales. As the only other outlet on the levels is up at Bill Fen way off the main route. My yearly fuel costs are now higher than my mooring fees.

 

 

And to think only seven years back you could fiil a 40 gallon tank for only £30 (Turners)

 

Firesprite

[alan_fincher]

The garage Gas oil tank is the same size as Foxes and that Foxes has a higher throughput with Gas oil sales. As the only other outlet on the levels is up at Bill Fen way off the main route. My yearly fuel costs are now higher than my mooring fees.

Yes,

 

I'm not arguing with you, or seeking to justify marina pricing.

 

Obviously it would be good if outlets were being scrupulous, and only increasing the pump prices where they have taken a new delivery, and price to them has risen.

 

But I suspect there is a lot of blatant profiteering going on. I've certainly seen a massive hike in price at a marina, during a day, where I'm sure no new drop of fuel was made.

[Ex- Member]

Hi Julian,

 

I don't think those numbers from the 2007 budget proposals are quite the way it actually went, or is still going..... (But I could be wrong!).

 

If you look at this alternative government document.....

 

http://customs.hmrc.gov.uk/channelsPortalW...CE_PROD1_027232

 

[budget 2008 HM Revenue and Customs HYDROCARBON OILS: DUTY RATES CHANGES AND RATES SIMPLIFICATION (dated 12th Mar 2008)]

 

Then it shows the fuel duty on "Heavy oil which is not Ultra low sulphur diesel (ULSD) or Sulphur-free diesel (SFD), i.e. conventional diesel" as having been 56.94 ppl before 1 Apr 2008, but actually reducing on that date to 50.35 to bring it in line with ULS diesel.

 

So, unless this document was not actually implemented, I think all fully taxed heavy oil or DERV, whether ULS or not ,now attracts a duty of 50.35 ppl.

 

 

That duty is shown as rising to 52.35 ppl on October 1st.

 

These are the duty rates I've used, so I'd be interested if someone can show they are wrong.

 

However there is an error in my sums. I have forgotten that whatever proportion of the fuel is classed as "non propulsion" will still attract duty at a lower rate. Where I get confused is whether that bit will also still attract VAT at a lower rate. I've failed to turn up consistent information at this level of detail. So I don't think I could come up with an answer that is definitely the definitive one, without better information.

 

Yep I get your drift now Al, I was reading from the 2007 chart, but of course things changed like deferring the 2p increase. Even a later chart I found sticks with the 2p rise.

 

So currently it's as you say it's 50.35 and it is due to go up 2p in April 09 I think the deferred 2p was to be reviewed again in October, but I would think the government would be insane to reinstate it, considering they're 5 billion up on fuel revenue due to current price increases.

 

Based on that we're quite a bit better off As the actual increase would be 40.66 + Vat = £0.47.77

 

So revising the increase i stated at 55p down to 48p

Edited July 4, 2008 by Julynian

[Pie Eater]

Diesel 89p per litre at Thorne Marine on the Bridgewater Canal - todays price. The highest price that I have ever paid.

 

Steve

[Machpoint005]

...the government would be insane to reinstate it...

SFW?

[Theo]

They are charging £1.00 per litre at Selby

 

Nick

[Grace and Favour]

They are charging £1.00 per litre at Selby

 

Nick

 

Ah - the Tykes are clearly affluent then . . . . . (or they were until they had to buy at Selby!)