Liverpool Sailaway

[laural]

We are getting rather upset now after a weekend of talking to brokers and boat builders.

They all have advised us not to buy a Liverpool boat but not given any reasons.

On a basic level other than fancy steel work what is actually the diference ?

Are the welds not as good as other builders welds or something else?

We really do feel sickened by these comments as this boat is in our budget and firmly in our sights.

 

Please pm us with any 'facts' we should know.

 

Thanks.

[blackrose]

We are getting rather upset now after a weekend of talking to brokers and boat builders.

They all have advised us not to buy a Liverpool boat but not given any reasons.

On a basic level other than fancy steel work what is actually the diference ?

Are the welds not as good as other builders welds or something else?

We really do feel sickened by these comments as this boat is in our budget and firmly in our sights.

 

Please pm us with any 'facts' we should know.

 

Thanks.

 

Have a look at this thread from over a year ago: http://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php...Liverpool+Boats

 

Phil Speight is a renowned boat painter and well-respected in the industry and I think he knows what he's talking about.

 

Although it's true that LB build boats quickly and work on very slim profit margins, one would expect to hear about more mistakes with LB than any other builder simply because they build more boats than any other builder!

 

A lot of people don't like them because there are so many about, but in my opinion this doesn't mean they aren't decent boats - it just means there are a lot of them!

 

Since the last thread about the business status of LB, I heard a rumour that because of personal reasons the owner was drastically downsizing the business and would only be producing 3 or 4 boats per year.

 

Yes, it does seem strangely coincidental that this decision seems to have come about at the same time as a downturn in the boatbuilding industry and the economy as a whole, but there you go, we only have rumours at present so best to check to see what's happening yourself.

Edited March 12, 2008 by blackrose

[chris w]

I heard directly from the New Boat Company (NBC) that they will no longer be selling any boats from LB. They are only going to be selling their own high-end production boats (the Polish-built Aqualine range) and some very upmarket widebeams. This stacks up with NBC's website which now only shows the aforementioned ranges.

 

NBC told me, as Mike mentions above, that the LB owner will only be making a small number of boats per year in future due to his wanting to semi-retire.

 

Chris

[Mick_B]

Not to mention my recent email from LB in this post

 

Reply from LB

edit to add....

Carlt pointed out this almost as good price range Northwich . They are not far off LB and are definatly in the running for me.

 

Best of luck with your boat.

Edited March 12, 2008 by Shinner

[blackrose]

Not to mention my recent email from LB in this post

 

Reply from LB

edit to add....

Carlt pointed out this almost as good price range Northwich . They are not far off LB and are definatly in the running for me.

 

Best of luck with your boat.

 

Northwich looks good - it seems they are trying to get a share of this market from LB & NBC - it's almost exactly the same sailaway menu at the same sort of prices.

Edited March 12, 2008 by blackrose

[RobinJ]

Although it's true that LB build boats quickly and work on very slim profit margins, one would expect to hear about more mistakes with LB than any other builder simply because they build more boats than any other builder!

 

A lot of people don't like them because there are so many about, but in my opinion this doesn't mean they aren't decent boats - it just means there are a lot of them!

 

Since the last thread about the business status of LB, I heard a rumour that because of personal reasons the owner was drastically downsizing the business and would only be producing 3 or 4 boats per year.

 

Yes, it does seem strangely coincidental that this decision seems to have come about at the same time as a downturn in the boatbuilding industry and the economy as a whole, but there you go, we only have rumours at present so best to check to see what's happening yourself.

As an owner of a Liverpool boat, I have to agree to most of what is said. I tend to notice other Liverpool's and compare whats changed, whats missing, how different they are etc. It might be important if you are buying second hand to know exactly when it was built and there has been 'bad' patches in their history, but on the whole you generally get value for money. I think many of the problems have been caused by the small profit margin, the inability of secondary outlets to make sufficient profit too and the competition from other builders, some of which are similar in design but often better quality.

The answer with any boatbuilder is to know exactly what your paying for, check up on progress and don't be afraid of paying a visit! Admittedly it is now some time ago, but when I last visited Liverpool, I was impressed by what they were acheiving with the facilities they had.

[onthecut]

Having bought one of their shells -- as a shell -- I've got to know pretty much every inch of it and it strikes me that while you can see where they make economies, they are very acceptable value for money. You wouldn't ever confuse one with the product of a top notch shell builder, but in my opinion you could easily pay £5k more, or so, and wind up with nothing remotely better.

As individually hand made objects, they will all be slightly different, but one area on mine that seems to be well ahead of some markedly more expensive boats are the arrow straight cabin sides. On the other hand, I'm not a great fan of the heavily curved roof, although I suppose it makes engineering sense -- and thats about as flat as a ploughed field !

I wonder if in another ten or twenty years they will have assumed the mantle of the Harborough and Springer boats ( both of which seem to be thinning out somewhat now, to me) ?

 

Mike.

Edited March 12, 2008 by onthecut

[Maverick]

Having bought one of their shells -- as a shell -- I've got to know pretty much every inch of it and it strikes me that while you can see where they make economies, they are very acceptable value for money. You wouldn't ever confuse one with the product of a top notch shell builder, but in my opinion you could easily pay £5k more, or so, and wind up with nothing remotely better.

As individually hand made objects, they will all be slightly different, but one area on mine that seems to be well ahead of some markedly more expensive boats are the arrow straight cabin sides. On the other hand, I'm not a great fan of the heavily curved roof, although I suppose it makes engineering sense -- and thats about as flat as a ploughed field !

I wonder if in another ten or twenty years they will have assumed the mantle of the Harborough and Springer boats ( both of which seem to be thinning out somewhat now, to me) ?

Mike.

 

Could be some truth in this and in 20 yrs time folk will be referring to Liverpool boats as a cheap and cheerfull solution to budget boating.

 

As springers have such a bad reputation and resale value now tho, it may make more sense to go for a really well made second hand boat of which there are many, rather than buy a cheap sailaway just because its brand new.

 

Ask yourself the question do I want a brand new Hyundi (wanted to put Lada Riva but may give my age away) or a second hand BMW M3. know what i'd sooner own.

[Brummage]

Surely you can't be putting Liverpool Boats shells in the same league as Springers?!

 

Furthermore, Hyundai are the only car manufacturer that offers a 5year or 100000 mile warranty across the range, and are without doubt exteremely good at making cars, so it surely is not fair to lump that company in with Lada!

[laural]

Thank you for the replies.

 

The problem with second hand boats from what we have seen is problems.

You are buying someone elses problems.

Things need to be changed ripped out and restarted which in the end means you have spent near on the same for a new boat.

 

The brokers we have spoke to can offer us a Liverpool sailway on order if we wanted one so we assume LB must still be making boats but to a buyer who assumes more of the upfront costs like a broker.

Edited March 12, 2008 by laural

[blackrose]

Could be some truth in this and in 20 yrs time folk will be referring to Liverpool boats as a cheap and cheerfull solution to budget boating.

 

As springers have such a bad reputation and resale value now tho, it may make more sense to go for a really well made second hand boat of which there are many, rather than buy a cheap sailaway just because its brand new.

 

Ask yourself the question do I want a brand new Hyundi (wanted to put Lada Riva but may give my age away) or a second hand BMW M3. know what i'd sooner own.

 

The difference is that Springers started off with thin hulls which is why nobody will touch them now unless they don't mind getting involved with overplating, or unless it's already been done. Liverpool Boats hulls on the other hand, have the same 10:6:5 spec as the hulls of many other boat builders who also used the correct grade of steel. So if properly looked after there's no reason they shouldn't last just as long.

[RLWP]

You are buying someone elses problems.

 

Things need to be changed ripped out and restarted which in the end means you have spent near on the same for a new boat.

 

Hi Laural,

 

I don't think I agree with either of these statements. Firstly, if you look carefully at what you are buying I don't see why a second hand boat will have more problems than one you build yourself. In fact, in a boat that isn't very old most of the problems will have been shaken out by the first owner.

 

Secondly, If you do decide to replace something, it really isn't going to be everything. It is unlikely that a boat will need a lot of work unless it is old.

 

Richard

[Maverick]

The difference is that Springers started off with thin hulls which is why nobody will touch them now unless they don't mind getting involved with overplating, or unless it's already been done. Liverpool Boats hulls on the other hand, have the same 10:6:5 spec as the hulls of many other boat builders who also used the correct grade of steel. So if properly looked after there's no reason they shouldn't last just as long.

 

Yes I appreciate that but today they are classed as budget boats and in 20 yrs time they will still be referred to as budget boats of their day. Mud sticks and although like the springers there will be plenty around will anyone want them?

 

Mind you the way the waterways are going does it matter?

[Maverick]

Surely you can't be putting Liverpool Boats shells in the same league as Springers?!

 

Furthermore, Hyundai are the only car manufacturer that offers a 5year or 100000 mile warranty across the range, and are without doubt exteremely good at making cars, so it surely is not fair to lump that company in with Lada!

 

Hyundai, skoda, rover etc etc. Wouldnt have mattered which make i'd chosen someone would have owned one now or in the past and jumped to their defence.

 

Read it tongue in cheek hyundai are fabulous cars

[steelaway]

Hyundai, skoda, rover etc etc. Wouldnt have mattered which make i'd chosen someone would have owned one now or in the past and jumped to their defence.

 

Read it tongue in cheek hyundai are fabulous cars

 

Hi Mav

I would never call my wifes Hyundai fabulous, it is like a rusty old nail, but like a rusty old nail it never stops working.

I have owned more expensive cars that were much more trouble.

I always felt LB are the same, no frills but tough and perfectly functional. My old LB certainly steered better than my new custom built jobby.

 

Alex

[Paul H]

Yes I appreciate that but today they are classed as budget boats and in 20 yrs time they will still be referred to as budget boats of their day. Mud sticks and although like the springers there will be plenty around will anyone want them?

 

It seems that with a big reduction in production and being dropped by their main customer, the New Boat Co, we are already at a situation where nobody wants them, whereas the more upmarket builders still have waiting lists and the "luxury" Polish boats are still selling.

 

There are an awful lot of these value for money rather bland LB-type boats around and trying to sell them on in a slow market will be like trying to sell a Barratt house in the middle of an estate - you can only do so by being cheaper than the rest.

 

Actually, it is likely to cost you less (at least in the long run) to buy a good secondhand reeves, colecraft etc. (preferably with a professional fit out) which will always be in demand by enthusiasts, will certainly be better built, will have all the delivery snags ironed out and will have rather more attractive lines. There are heaps of secondhand boats for sale (580 on Apollo Duck alone) and I am sure by haggling you could pick up a better boat for less money than you could ever achieve by fitting out a sailaway. Unless of course you are a skilled carpenter, plumber, electrician and gas fitter with plenty of time on your hands and access to trade discounts on materials and equipment. Even then as an unknown boatfitter your boat will always be lumped in with all the other amateur jobs and valued accordingly.

 

I know a couple of brokers who are very gloomy about the future of the secondhand market and particularly for the great mass of owner-fit out sailaways which will and are coming on the market. There will be some massive depreciation out there. Limit your exposure by going for quality or by buying a boat which has already taken a dive in price.

 

Good luck. remember, it's a buyers market.

 

Paul

[blackrose]

Yes I appreciate that but today they are classed as budget boats and in 20 yrs time they will still be referred to as budget boats of their day. Mud sticks and although like the springers there will be plenty around will anyone want them?

 

Mind you the way the waterways are going does it matter?

 

That's right they are budget boats, but as I tried to explain, the reason people don't want Springers now is that the hulls are too thin - not because they were budget boats. People generally like getting value for money, what they don't want is something that's not fit-for-purpose and won't last.

 

As the OP stated, lots of people advised her against buying a LB sailaway but none seemed able to come up with an explanation for their opinion. Sometimes the only reason mud sticks is because people continue to perpetuate the myth.

Edited March 12, 2008 by blackrose

[sueb]

Thank you for the replies.

 

The problem with second hand boats from what we have seen is problems.

You are buying someone elses problems.

Things need to be changed ripped out and restarted which in the end means you have spent near on the same for a new boat.

 

The brokers we have spoke to can offer us a Liverpool sailway on order if we wanted one so we assume LB must still be making boats but to a buyer who assumes more of the upfront costs like a broker.

 

I don't agree with this either. Our first boat was second hand. We could sell it for what we paid for it if we didn't like boating. The only thing we altered was changing a large double bed in the front cabin to a bed settee. It gave us the chance to see if we really liked living with the chosen layout. The only downside was it was the second boat we looked at and so I was deprived of the opportunity of spending weekends boat hunting.

Sue

[saltysplash]

Surely you can't be putting Liverpool Boats shells in the same league as Springers?!

 

Furthermore, Hyundai are the only car manufacturer that offers a 5year or 100000 mile warranty across the range, and are without doubt exteremely good at making cars, so it surely is not fair to lump that company in with Lada!

 

 

mmmmm hyundai santa fe......and ive still got 2 years left on my warranty

[bear]

We are getting rather upset now after a weekend of talking to brokers and boat builders.

They all have advised us not to buy a Liverpool boat but not given any reasons.

On a basic level other than fancy steel work what is actually the diference ?

Are the welds not as good as other builders welds or something else?

We really do feel sickened by these comments as this boat is in our budget and firmly in our sights.

 

Please pm us with any 'facts' we should know.

 

Thanks.

hi

We have a liverpool sailway which we purchased 18 months ago, again though NBC. We looked at other options for the money but from a fabricator /engineers point of view, the basic structure is great, material thickness is as specified, yes finishing in some areas need refining but overall very happy with purchase. One thing that many people who have been on the boat comment on,is the head room which from my point of view at 6ft 3 its great,

 

Regards

Bear

[AndyM]

mmmmm hyundai santa fe......and ive still got 2 years left on my warranty

 

OMG!! We have a Hyundai and Liverpool Boat sailaway!! But would not swap either of them. Both extremely good value for money and reliable.

 

Our LB has a roof like a ploughed field and some rough finishing touches but I suppose it all adds up to the personalty of the boat and its' idiosyncracies, We certainly don't buy things to impress other people, I really couldn't care less what they think and never have done. We didn't buy either for their resale value as we bought them for their longevity and enjoyment value, neither have let us down (yet!!).

 

Andy.

[laural]

But second hand boats are old and the good ones are far and few between.

God this is a nightmare now lol.

[laural]

What is approved steel?

Is it true certain builders have used such steel to anyones knowledge?

[Gary Peacock]

What is approved steel?

Is it true certain builders have used such steel to anyones knowledge?

 

Most steel in Europe is graded, the market for any ungraded steel would be so unlikely that I doubt very little exists.

 

The old comment about used boats and that the steel was better then is also doubtful, for years now steel as been manufactured to approved specifications if anything in recent years the specifications have actually been tightened.

 

There is a lot of bitching in the UK industry about Eastern European boats and poor quality steel being used in my view my comments above put that down to just sour grapes but it could be worth asking one of those builders exactly what grade steel they use. I don't think it would be much if any different to the top UK based Ditch Crawler builders.

[laural]

Thank you Gary.

Is it correct that builders have to use a certain grade under the RCD?

Annex 3 or 13 or something?

Edited March 13, 2008 by laural