Shared Ownership

[Dave Hannigan]

We are currently looking into shared ownership schemes and were wondering if anybody has any experience of these schemes. We would be grateful for any views, both good and bad, and also any advantages or disadvantages.

 

Thanks in advance

 

Dave & carol

[adam1uk]

Yes there are a few of us on here who own shares.

 

Advantages are that it's significantly cheaper than hiring, you get to know your own boat, and you have a real sense of ownership.

 

Disadvantages include not being able to go out on the boat at the drop of a hat if a sunny weekend comes along.

 

There are several schemes, all of which seem to do things differently. Things to check: Do you (and the other owners) actually own the boat, or is it just time share; is the allocation of holiday weeks fair; can you get extra weeks, and how are they organised; how easy is it to move mooring location.

 

I know there'll be people along shortly who say they'd never go for shared ownership. One day, we too will have our own boat, but while holiday time is limited it works for us as a cost effective way of getting on the canals.

 

If you have specific questions, feel free to PM me.

 

Adam

[Nev]

Hi,

 

We went down the 'ownerships' shared ownership route as part of our journey into full boat ownership. Holiday boats - ownerships - own 45 footer for the mooring - present 50 foot boat.

 

We benefitted as we took advantage of spare or cancelled weeks in the ownerships scheme. we could do that because our jobs allowed short notice breaks. There ar emany types of shared ownerships as stated above - the ownerships one means you actually own part of the boat, which was better as you knew your boat after a couple of trips.

 

Specific to Ownerships......

 

Be careful on future works even at 1/12 of the total cost it can add up over and above the maintainence funds. Also check where the boat has been moored before to get an idea of the areas you may not see for some while.

 

Biggest gripe for us was the extra 25% we had to pay for the special share (school holiday share) meaning we got first option of the holidays, we paid extra to use the canals at the busiest time - we knew this before we signed up of course.....

 

Finally as you own the baot you cannot walk away - ownerships did /do have a share buy back scheme but at a cost. We sold our share on quite quickly, they are good at seeling their shares on.

 

All in all a good way to get 3 weeks afloat, cheaper than hiring and the first rung on the ownership ladder...

 

as above PM me of you have any specific questions

 

Our boat name was Sylph

 

Nev

[kawaton]

try doing a search

 

http://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php...hared+ownership

 

http://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php...hared+ownership

 

http://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php...hared+ownership

 

to link just a few

[pearley]

We had a share in Sundowner, an Ownerships boat, and it was great. We had hired for some 18 years and a boat to the same standard as Sundowner would cost now some £1500 a week to hire in peak season. When we bought 'Joanie M' we sold our share under the buy back scheme. As a previous post said, the price is not generous but you get your money straight away. If you don't mind cruising in the winter months, you can have as many weeks as you like. The best we managed was 5.

 

Go for it.

[Machpoint005]

We had a share in Wolverley from new (2003) and had generally good experiences with a fine boat - laying aside a 'from new' engine problem that was only resolved by replacing the engine. Ownerships were not prepared to fight the owners' collective corner against the original supplier, so it cost us a few hunderd quid each.

 

Having said that, a lot depends on your co-owners. Some are normal, some very enthusiastic, and some excessively anal - a bit like life in general, really! Annual owners' meetings are good if you like meetings, but not so good if you want to spend two hours discussing the colour of new curtains. If you want a customised boat, you need to get things past your fellow owners - if you can be arsed. If you are happy to put up with what there is (and there's nothing, repeat nothing, fundamentally wrong with the boats) you'll be fine.

 

From our experience, I'd go for the a share of the newest boat you can afford - but not a brand new one. Then the inevitable teething problems can be avoided.

 

There are a lot of boats on the Ownerships scheme now, so selling a share on may get more difficult. It takes less time to dispose of a 'special' share, though: ours went in a matter of a few months without using the buy-back option.

 

We found it difficult to 'book' holiday weeks up to 18 months in advance, and often found we had to cut a week on the boat short due to circumstances beyond our control (the pleasures of self-employment...). It can also be a pain to turn up to take over the boat on a Friday afternoon, when the roads are at their busiest, and to get the boat back to base early on a Friday morning. You can take the easy option and end on the Thursday evening, but that way your week ends up barely six days long once you have cleaned the boat and replenished supplies. We found a few 'jobsworths' among Ownerships' local agents who could be quite insulting if you were late!

 

Realistically, you are looking at tying up a few thousand quid (maybe several thousand) then getting relatively cheap use of a boat - if you can actually use the prebooked weeks. Sorry if this sounds negative, there are lots of good reasons for going with shared ownership too!

 

Feel free to PM if you want any more insider info!

 

Ian

[Dave Hannigan]

Having read through the responses and the searches provided by Kawaton (thanks should have done that first....ooops) it would appear that most are favourable to the idea.

 

We had actually expected a bit more negativity.

 

We were going to buy one but kids put a stop to that (cost more now they are grown than they ever did when they were young). So now this seems like an ideal solution as nearly all holidays would be taken on a hire boat. Any money saved can go towards our new boat fund (about the sixth we'll have started)

 

Quite a few have mentioned Ownerships, are there many more? Going to their show in feb-Its over 2 days will we see it all in a day or is overnight acommodation required?

 

Going to see Carefree on the 26th does anyone have any info on them?

 

Had a look at a private share today and was very tempted but dont want to jump at first look. 57' semi for £5000 with £750 per year maintenance.

 

Are there any other companies that should be looked at?

 

Thanks again

 

Dave & Carol

[challenger_33]

Hi have just spoken to my friend who has a share in a challenger boat, the company has just called in the receivers so any one thinking of joining or taking a holiday with the stealth hire should take warning now. We not sure whats going to hapen yet and wether the boat is going to be kept or sold off hopefully the comany we be sold as a going concern. There was us thinking that shared syndicate was a safer way to go!

[Dave Hannigan]

Hi have just spoken to my friend who has a share in a challenger boat, the company has just called in the receivers so any one thinking of joining or taking a holiday with the stealth hire should take warning now. We not sure whats going to hapen yet and wether the boat is going to be kept or sold off hopefully the comany we be sold as a going concern. There was us thinking that shared syndicate was a safer way to go!

 

 

I'll give them a miss then :lol:

[challenger_33]

I'll give them a miss then :lol:

 

Well at least until they sorted themselves out otherwise they have been a good choice

[Richard T]

We are part of a private shared ownwership which works quite well. It came about when a colleague of my wife was selling a boat. A chance remark to another colleague started the ball rolling and very quickly we had 5 couples who agreed to purchase and share the boat. We have an advantage in that one of the original members lives in a house with about 80ft of mooring. Although he has now sold his share we still use his mooring for the winter months. The boat was about 15 years old when purchased and needed some tlc. We all put in money over the purchase price to give working capital and beeing a handy bunch set about getting the boat how we wanted it. It is not a 'gin palace' but a comfortable unassuming boat which is rather nondescipt in appearance but it does do what it says on the tin!! The last major job is a repaint which is booked in for later this year. 6 years on we are still going strong 2 of the original couples have sold their share, one because they found boating not to their liking, the other took early retirement and bought a new boat.

We do have an agreement which may or may not be legally enforceable. We have officers - chair, secretary, treasurer, boat manager, a bank account ets. We meet about this time of year to agree the time allocation which is in 2 week blocks beginning on Fridays - this allows owners just to go out for the weekend. We do the bulk of our own maintenance, having the engine professionally serviced once a year by our local boat yard who are very good and helpful (Sileby Mill). We pay a monthly amount per share which covers licence, insurance, RCR, slipping, maintenance an amount for long term items eg repainting, gas and other sundries. We expect owners to pay for diesel used.

On the whole the arrangement works well, the boat gets used a lot, we agree where it will go each year eg 2006 L&L, 2007 Birmingham etc. It means that we see all parts of the system.

If you can find the right boat - preferably one which you are not afraid to scratch - and the right group of people go for a private scheme. Most of all enjoy your boating.

[howardang]

Having read through the responses and the searches provided by Kawaton (thanks should have done that first....ooops) it would appear that most are favourable to the idea.

 

We had actually expected a bit more negativity.

 

We were going to buy one but kids put a stop to that (cost more now they are grown than they ever did when they were young). So now this seems like an ideal solution as nearly all holidays would be taken on a hire boat. Any money saved can go towards our new boat fund (about the sixth we'll have started)

 

Quite a few have mentioned Ownerships, are there many more? Going to their show in feb-Its over 2 days will we see it all in a day or is overnight acommodation required?

 

Going to see Carefree on the 26th does anyone have any info on them?

 

Had a look at a private share today and was very tempted but dont want to jump at first look. 57' semi for £5000 with £750 per year maintenance.

 

Are there any other companies that should be looked at?

 

Thanks again

 

Dave & Carol

Hello Dave

 

You can easily do the show in one day, possibly including a short trip to Braunston Turn and back. There is a usually a good range of boats to look at with share prices to suit all pockets. Each boat will be manned with owners in the scheme who will be only too pleased to tell it like it is and if you decide to take the plunge you can buy a share at the show. There is also a marquee with trade stands and refreshments including alcohol. Come along - it's a great day out and a chance to blow away the cobwebs after Christmas.

 

Howard Anguish

[Allan(nb Albert)]

Having read through the responses and the searches provided by Kawaton (thanks should have done that first....ooops) it would appear that most are favourable to the idea.

 

We had actually expected a bit more negativity.

 

We were going to buy one but kids put a stop to that (cost more now they are grown than they ever did when they were young). So now this seems like an ideal solution as nearly all holidays would be taken on a hire boat. Any money saved can go towards our new boat fund (about the sixth we'll have started)

 

Quite a few have mentioned Ownerships, are there many more? Going to their show in feb-Its over 2 days will we see it all in a day or is overnight acommodation required?

 

Going to see Carefree on the 26th does anyone have any info on them?

 

Had a look at a private share today and was very tempted but dont want to jump at first look. 57' semi for £5000 with £750 per year maintenance.

 

Are there any other companies that should be looked at?

 

Thanks again

 

Dave & Carol

 

 

Hi Dave & Carol

 

I carried out a survey of the shared ownership market a few months back in aid of a complaint I had made concerning British Waterways last licencing consultation. Carefree, were the only one of the four shared ownership companies currently active in the market place who would not speak to me. However, some of the owners did and the comments were quite enlightening!

 

In 2007 there were about 300 shared ownership boats "on the water". About half those boats are "managed". The four shared ownership companies are OwnerShips, Challenger Syndicateships, Carefree Cruising and JD Boat Services.

 

Shared ownership has taken a knock in recent years due to British Waterways attitude on licencing. However, that now seems to have changed with BW actually promoting this form of boating to a limited extent.

 

If you want my view of the marketplace feel free to pm me.

 

Allan

Edited January 6, 2008 by Allan(nb Albert)

[haggis]

Well at least until they sorted themselves out otherwise they have been a good choice

 

One of the main diffeences between OwnerShips and Challenger is that C keep a share in every boat. They only sell 12 X 8% shares which leaves Challenger owning 4%. This may seem like a small amount BUT it does give the company some say over what is done to the boat (painting, new engine etc) and if the company goes bust, the fact that the company still owns a bit of each boat might make it "interesting" when the company assets are being assessed. With OwnerShips, all of every boat is sold to owners so that the company retains NO financial interest in the boat. Also, with Challenger retaining a part of every boat, Challenger boats do not qualify for a private licence but must have a more expensive buisness one.

[adam1uk]

We didn't like the Challenger Boats, so ruled them out because of that. Carefree Cruising had a complicated system of red and yellow weeks, which meant that it seemed difficult to go on holiday when you wanted. JB Boats sell fixed weeks, and the agreement has an end date. That's why we ended up with OwnerShips. Because the boat we bought into had a couple of other shares for sale, we've managed six weeks on board this year.

 

I'm sure you'll enjoy the show. It's easy to do it all in a day, but it's worth taking notes on which boats you like and which you don't. Although they look fairly standard at first glance, they're actually all slightly different!

[Allan(nb Albert)]

One of the main diffeences between OwnerShips and Challenger is that C keep a share in every boat. They only sell 12 X 8% shares which leaves Challenger owning 4%. This may seem like a small amount BUT it does give the company some say over what is done to the boat (painting, new engine etc) and if the company goes bust, the fact that the company still owns a bit of each boat might make it "interesting" when the company assets are being assessed. With OwnerShips, all of every boat is sold to owners so that the company retains NO financial interest in the boat. Also, with Challenger retaining a part of every boat, Challenger boats do not qualify for a private licence but must have a more expensive buisness one.

 

Over the years, Challenger have always maintained that they do not have shares in boats. Certainly, the reason that Challenger boats now have a business licence (which is 2.47 a private licence) has nothing to do with the retention of a 4% share.

 

When I reviewed the shared ownership marketplace a couple of months back it became apparent that British Waterways had treated Challenger differently to other companies. They told Challenger that they would change terms and conditions as from 1/1/2007 to ensure that all "managed" shared ownerships boats would be licenced as business. Based on this, Challenger has simply been applying for business licences on behalf of its owners. It was not until I spoke to Challenger a little while back that they realised that all other boats, both "managed" and "private" were licencing as private and that British Waterways had been giving advice to other companies as to how this could best be achieved!

 

Needless to say, they were not amused that British Waterways had misled them and I understand that they were considering making a formal complaint.

 

Also, they were unaware that British Waterways retrospectively changed its policy regarding shared ownership later in 2007 and reverted to a former policy that had already been heavily criticised by the Waterways Ombubsman.

 

If, as has been suggested earlier in this thread, Challenger are going into voluntary liquidation then I am sure that part of the reason is that they feel they are unable to compete unless British Waterways provides them with a level playing field.

 

Allan

[haggis]

Over the years, Challenger have always maintained that they do not have shares in boats.

They may well say that but if you start with 100% pf something and sell 12 X8% parts, you are left with 4% no matter how you look at it.

 

Certainly, the reason that Challenger boats now have a business licence (which is 2.47 a private licence) has nothing to do with the retention of a 4% share

 

Perhaps the fact that all their boats carry advertising also has somthing to do with it :-)

 

When I reviewed the shared ownership marketplace a couple of months back it became apparent that British Waterways had treated Challenger differently to other companies. They told Challenger that they would change terms and conditions as from 1/1/2007 to ensure that all "managed" shared ownerships boats would be licenced as business. Based on this, Challenger has simply been applying for business licences on behalf of its owners. It was not until I spoke to Challenger a little while back that they realised that all other boats, both "managed" and "private" were licencing as private and that British Waterways had been giving advice to other companies as to how this could best be achieved!

 

As far as I understand, BW made an automatic refund of the difference between business and private licences to ALL shared boats after the Dec 04 Ombudsmans ruling.

 

 

But as the Chalenger boats all carry the name of Challenger blazoned across the side, i don't see how they could qualify for a private licence. they are after all adverstising a company.

 

 

If, as has been suggested earlier in this thread, Challenger are going into voluntary liquidation then I am sure that part of the reason is that they feel they are unable to compete unless British Waterways provides them with a level playing field.

 

But surely, it is the owners who ulitimately pay the lcience fee.

 

Allan

[barroca grande]

We have a share in an Ownerships boat and it seems to work okay. I do however find it difficult at the end of the trip that I have make sure I clean up satisfactorily for the next owner as some do comment! If you are in a hurry and it is your own boat you could run off and clean up when you returned. There is a diary kept on board so you are kept up to date with what has happened to the boat since your last visit which makes interesting reading and even if you are not a meetings type person it is best to go to the meetings just to make sure you are not 'talked about'. We decided on getting a share as an interim arrangement as I am having a boat built and it is cheaper than having to hire in the long run. Although if the boat doesn't move locations from one year to the next you could get bored with an area, whilst with hiring you can go somewhere different every time.

 

What I would recommend is working out exactly what layout you like and do not do what we did.

 

We looked around one boat and really liked the layout etc but as it had had new carpets fitted over its winter maintenance I took my shoes off when we looked round it and realised that it was wet underfoot. Obviously the reason for the new carpet hadn't been fixed! As we were rushing off to New Zealand for six weeks we didn't buy the share just in case. When we returned I looked at another boat and decided to take the plunge. I hate the layout. Which is annoying as otherwise it is a lovely boat. The original boat we looked at was kept at the same place as ours and one week it was late setting off as the toilet had fallen through into the tank (well was about to!!!) and had to be fixed. So we probably made the right choice as our boat is better maintained and all the other owners really take care of it. Some of the other owners have owned it from the beginning so they really have a sense of ownership. Just a shame I don't like the fact that the saloon is all by itself at the front of the boat and is therefore wasted space when there are only two of you on board. If you have a young family then you can put the kids to bed in there and carry on at the kitchen/dinette end of the boat and not disturb them. So it would work for some just not for us.

 

I have looked at the other shared schemes and would thoroughly recommend Ownerships. Although if you can find like minded people a private arrangement is probably more fun and flexible as you would get further around the system.

[Allan(nb Albert)]

Over the years, Challenger have always maintained that they do not have shares in boats.

They may well say that but if you start with 100% pf something and sell 12 X8% parts, you are left with 4% no matter how you look at it.

 

Certainly, the reason that Challenger boats now have a business licence (which is 2.47 a private licence) has nothing to do with the retention of a 4% share

 

Perhaps the fact that all their boats carry advertising also has somthing to do with it :-)

 

That can't be the reason as boats managed by another company also carry advertising. I am aware that British Waterways did attempt to justify business licences on this basis but by that time it had changed its policy so that all "managed" craft would have to be licenced as private anyway.

 

When I reviewed the shared ownership marketplace a couple of months back it became apparent that British Waterways had treated Challenger differently to other companies. They told Challenger that they would change terms and conditions as from 1/1/2007 to ensure that all "managed" shared ownerships boats would be licenced as business. Based on this, Challenger has simply been applying for business licences on behalf of its owners. It was not until I spoke to Challenger a little while back that they realised that all other boats, both "managed" and "private" were licencing as private and that British Waterways had been giving advice to other companies as to how this could best be achieved!

 

As far as I understand, BW made an automatic refund of the difference between business and private licences to ALL shared boats after the Dec 04 Ombudsmans ruling.

 

 

But as the Chalenger boats all carry the name of Challenger blazoned across the side, i don't see how they could qualify for a private licence. they are after all adverstising a company.

 

..... so how do Carefree boats qualify? They advertise and retain shares.

 

 

If, as has been suggested earlier in this thread, Challenger are going into voluntary liquidation then I am sure that part of the reason is that they feel they are unable to compete unless British Waterways provides them with a level playing field.

 

But surely, it is the owners who ulitimately pay the licence fee.

 

Quite right - owners ultimately pay! ...... and Challenger has to tell prospective and current owners that they must pay £100 more per year than another company in same position.

 

Allan

[challenger_33]

So what do you think would be the best course of action for a shareholder now? buy out challenger share? and manage it ourselves?

[Allan(nb Albert)]

So what do you think would be the best course of action for a shareholder now? buy out challenger share? and manage it ourselves?

 

I would suggest the best course of action is as follows:-

 

Do not pay any outstanding amounts of money that Challenger is requesting until you find out the status of the company.

 

Find out if the company is still trading or has gone into receivership. If the company has gone into receivership you will be informed but this can take some time. I suggest you write to the company at its registered address and also monitor the information held on Companies House website.

 

If the company has gone into receivership then to a large extent your are in the receivers hands. However, you may have some say in the matter as a creditor. The two main options are that the company is sold as a going concern or it is liquidated. If it is liquidated then the receiver will dispose of any assets the company has (including any shares in boats) to pay creditors. How the boat is subsequently run is up to its owners. It is possible that parts of any agreement or contract you have signed will still be in force or that the agreement/contract will stipulate what happens if the company is disolved.

 

One thing you will need to do quickly is to check the status of your insurance as this may lapse.

 

You may need to get legal advice.

 

In the longer term if you are not tied into Challenger's sucessor on your existing contract you would need to decide if you want to manage the boat yourselves or place it within another managed scheme. As far as I am aware, if you want to place the boat within another scheme your choice is limited to OwnerShips ( JD and Carefree only operate boats they have built themselves). Having said that, there are a number of individuals who have the experience to set up a company to manage your boat.

 

Regards

 

Allan

 

ps I hope this helps. If Challenger has gone into liquidation, I would ask others to contribute so that Challenger owners benefit from collective experience.

[Philip boatshare]

Persons looking to buy or sell shares in boats are welcome to use my web site, http://www.boatshare.co.uk where you can advertise free, or for a small fee have a featured advert. Even though I say so myself the featured adverts do well (I get no feedback on the free for three months ones).

 

Some managed companies do not (did not) allow share holders to advertise their shares themselves and could only be sold through their own brokerage system, something you need to check on if you wish to place an advert.

 

At present there are shares in both managed and private boats on the site.

[challenger_33]

Thanyou very much for your advice on this.

 

 

I would suggest the best course of action is as follows:-

 

Do not pay any outstanding amounts of money that Challenger is requesting until you find out the status of the company.

 

Find out if the company is still trading or has gone into receivership. If the company has gone into receivership you will be informed but this can take some time. I suggest you write to the company at its registered address and also monitor the information held on Companies House website.

 

If the company has gone into receivership then to a large extent your are in the receivers hands. However, you may have some say in the matter as a creditor. The two main options are that the company is sold as a going concern or it is liquidated. If it is liquidated then the receiver will dispose of any assets the company has (including any shares in boats) to pay creditors. How the boat is subsequently run is up to its owners. It is possible that parts of any agreement or contract you have signed will still be in force or that the agreement/contract will stipulate what happens if the company is disolved.

 

One thing you will need to do quickly is to check the status of your insurance as this may lapse.

 

You may need to get legal advice.

 

In the longer term if you are not tied into Challenger's sucessor on your existing contract you would need to decide if you want to manage the boat yourselves or place it within another managed scheme. As far as I am aware, if you want to place the boat within another scheme your choice is limited to OwnerShips ( JD and Carefree only operate boats they have built themselves). Having said that, there are a number of individuals who have the experience to set up a company to manage your boat.

 

Regards

 

Allan

 

ps I hope this helps. If Challenger has gone into liquidation, I would ask others to contribute so that Challenger owners benefit from collective experience.

[Allan(nb Albert)]

Persons looking to buy or sell shares in boats are welcome to use my web site, http://www.boatshare.co.uk where you can advertise free, or for a small fee have a featured advert. Even though I say so myself the featured adverts do well (I get no feedback on the free for three months ones).

 

Some managed companies do not (did not) allow share holders to advertise their shares themselves and could only be sold through their own brokerage system, something you need to check on if you wish to place an advert.

 

At present there are shares in both managed and private boats on the site.

 

If it transpires that Challenger has gone into liquidation, I would suggest that Philip is one of the small handfull that can offer meaninfull advice regarding future boat management.

 

Allan

[Tim]

No help to anybody, but I'm so pleased to have got out of Challenger a couple of years back. If anybody wants any information on Challenger, please feel free to PM me.

 

Tim.