Kuranda 87D stove advice

[mrsmelly]

Hi Peeps. Years ago I had a boat I fitted mistakenly with a piece of crap diesel stove made by Dickinson, it was bloody awful. Fast forward to today. A good friend has seen a boat on brokerage that at first sight seems to have one major drawback, its gas free, never a good sign and has the Kuranda stove fitted. Now does any of you actualy have one of these very expensive stoves and can give any honest feedback as to suitability for liveaboard use please. Such as genuine useability, time to heat up and regulate etc etc. Problem is of course first owner wrongly specified gas free so removing said stove is not so easy as just banging a proper gas stove in but all boats are a compromise somewhere and is the stove a definate no no??

Taa in advance. Genuine advice would be very much appreciated but the usual humour and wind up is also completely acceptable 

[Tony Brooks]

I think @Ditch Crawler has one, and he is almost as good as liveaboard for much of the year.

[mrsmelly]

1 minute ago, Tony Brooks said:

I think @Ditch Crawler has one, and he is almost as good as liveaboard for much of the year.

I think he has or did have a Dickinson?? but thanks for your input 

[booke23]

Although probably supplied by Kuranda, the stove in question is likely a Wallas 87D stove. I had one in a previous boat and I loved it. Very economical and clean as it uses a sealed flame with it's own flue. The oven is much better than a gas oven as it's fan assisted and works just like an electric oven in a house. The hob also works just like an electric ceramic cooker. I used to run the oven as a heater as it was so economical on diesel! I never had any trouble with it although I was not living aboard. 

 

The down sides are the hob isn't as quick to heat up as a gas hob, and it does require 12v to operate. IIRC it draws about 8 amps when starting but once it's running it draws only 1 amp or so. 

 

They cost an absolute fortune so if your friend decided to sell it and go to gas they'd probably get a couple of grand for it! 

 

In summary, definitely not a no no. 

Edited March 22 by booke23

[MtB]

3 hours ago, mrsmelly said:

A good friend has seen a boat on brokerage that at first sight seems to have one major drawback, its gas free, never a good sign

 

Presumably the attraction of this particular boat is the price. 

 

Gas-free boats are I suspect, bloody difficult to sell as the number of folk in the market to buy one at any given point in time is usually similar to the number of unicorns one sees around towing a horse boat loaded with 20 tons of rocking horse night soil. 

 

Consequently the price of a second-hand gas-free boat needs to reflect the cost of fitting a proper gas cooker and probably water heater too, and of course building a gas locker and getting the whole thing certified to comply with BSS and RCR. 

 

Endless trouble. Just buy a different boat with gas already installed.

 

You know it makes sense....

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[mrsmelly]

25 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

Presumably the attraction of this particular boat is the price. 

 

Gas-free boats are I suspect, bloody difficult to sell as the number of folk in the market to buy one at any given point in time is usually similar to the number of unicorns one sees around towing a horse boat loaded with 20 tons of rocking horse night soil. 

 

Consequently the price of a second-hand gas-free boat needs to reflect the cost of fitting a proper gas cooker and probably water heater too, and of course building a gas locker and getting the whole thing certified to comply with BSS and RCR. 

 

Endless trouble. Just buy a different boat with gas already installed.

 

You know it makes sense....

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Its not the price as its quite expensive, he has plenty of cash. Its the size at only forty feet. He has a forty foot mooring and tiny boats like that are few and far between as he doesnt want shorter if possible. You and I both know that long boats are better value for money but he doesnt have that option.

[booke23]

Just did a bit of research on current Wallas 87D prices....a shade under £4000. That means a used one will probably make £2000 on ebay, which should mostly cover the cost of a gas cooker and gas installation should the buyer decide the Wallas isn't for him. Although like toilets, I say live with it for 6 months before making any decisions. 

 

Sounds like it's a relatively modern boat....so will likely have Webasto/engine/immersion water heating already so gas water heating won't be required.

Edited March 22 by booke23

[MtB]

7 hours ago, booke23 said:

Sounds like it's a relatively modern boat....so will likely have Webasto/engine/immersion water heating already so gas water heating won't be required.

 

Having to run the engine constantly to get hot water when moored up for a few days is a bit of a ball-ache in summer though, when solar would otherwise keep the batteries fully charged.

 

 

Also for those who worry about such things, adding a gas installation will invalidate the RCD/RCR compliance of the boat, which isn't cheap to get re-inspected and re-certified. 

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

1 hour ago, MtB said:

..................adding a gas installation will invalidate the RCD/RCR compliance of the boat, which isn't cheap to get re-inspected and re-certified. 

 

The RCD/RCR PCA (Post Construction Assesment) seem to run at around £2000 + the cost of any remedial work.

[booke23]

2 hours ago, MtB said:

 

Having to run the engine constantly to get hot water when moored up for a few days is a bit of a ball-ache in summer though, when solar would otherwise keep the batteries fully charged.

 

Yeah it would, although it sounds like the OP’s friend has a mooring so presumably 240v is available for immersion heating (assuming the boat has this).

 

 

 

2 hours ago, MtB said:

Also for those who worry about such things, adding a gas installation will invalidate the RCD/RCR compliance of the boat, which isn't cheap to get re-inspected and re-certified. 

 

16 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

The RCD/RCR PCA (Post Construction Assesment) seem to run at around £2000 + the cost of any remedial work.

 

Ouch.

[Alan de Enfield]

4 minutes ago, booke23 said:

Ouch.

 

 

It's always easier (and cheaper) to start with a 'clean sheet' rather than having the cost of removing something installed incorrectly, 'making good' and then refitting the new system (gas ?) 

[peterboat]

Bottled gas is extremely expensive currently, my new boat has it with small bottles. It will stay, I can get bottles filled for free so it wont affect me, but it's not something I really want. In the summer I used an induction hob on the old boat the solar and large battery bank made it quick and easy, also an air fryer is a fantastic way of using free electricity. I will move both items to the new boat as I know it makes sense. 

[Tonka]

13 hours ago, MtB said:

 

Presumably the attraction of this particular boat is the price. 

 

Gas-free boats are I suspect, bloody difficult to sell as the number of folk in the market to buy one at any given point in time is usually similar to the number of unicorns one sees around towing a horse boat loaded with 20 tons of rocking horse night soil. 

 

Consequently the price of a second-hand gas-free boat needs to reflect the cost of fitting a proper gas cooker and probably water heater too, and of course building a gas locker and getting the whole thing certified to comply with BSS and RCR. 

 

Endless trouble. Just buy a different boat with gas already installed.

 

You know it makes sense....

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Also needed to fit all the extra vents needed to meet the BSS. If you look at @IanD boat which is gas free there are no top vents

[Alan de Enfield]

13 minutes ago, Tonka said:

Also needed to fit all the extra vents needed to meet the BSS. If you look at @IanD boat which is gas free there are no top vents

 

 

Just for the sake of completness - there is absolutely no requirement in the BSS (for a Private boat) to achieve or 'meet' any level of ventilation - even zero ventilation must result in a BSS certificate being granted.

 

It is of course a good idea to have some ventilation, which is why it is an 'advisory' in the BSS.

[Tonka]

7 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

Just for the sake of completness - there is absolutely no requirement in the BSS (for a Private boat) to achieve or 'meet' any level of ventilation - even zero ventilation must result in a BSS certificate being granted.

 

It is of course a good idea to have some ventilation, which is why it is an 'advisory' in the BSS.

There used to be. I remember having to cut holes in my nice hardwood doors on the front of the boat to increase lower ventilation

[peterboat]

2 minutes ago, Tonka said:

There used to be. I remember having to cut holes in my nice hardwood doors on the front of the boat to increase lower ventilation

Yes I have them into my wheelhouse from the kitchen 

[mrsmelly]

7 minutes ago, Tonka said:

There used to be. I remember having to cut holes in my nice hardwood doors on the front of the boat to increase lower ventilation

Indeed there was but I remember it being scrapped which is weird really.

[Alan de Enfield]

17 minutes ago, Tonka said:

There used to be. I remember having to cut holes in my nice hardwood doors on the front of the boat to increase lower ventilation

 

The oldest copy of the BSS Requirements for Private Boats I have is the 2013 issue.

 

Ventilation is shown as 'advisory'.

 

In the 2002 BSS the ventilation requirements are mandatory for Non-Private vessels.

Edited March 23 by Alan de Enfield

[JohnB]

We have had one of these  Oven/Hob units  on our boat for about 16 Years. And we really do like its function BUT there are issues with its design and serviceability. We don't live aboard but do travel for months at a time and Kathy takes cooking very seriously.

At present we also have an induction hob and are considering bringing the air fryer and/or Remoska for use when long term traveling.

 I won't at this point go into the detail of how I have tried to sort out better functioning but if you can cope with the servicing and have a secondary facility it "should" be OK.

 

John

[MtB]

46 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

Just for the sake of completness - there is absolutely no requirement in the BSS (for a Private boat) to achieve or 'meet' any level of ventilation - even zero ventilation must result in a BSS certificate being granted.

 

It is of course a good idea to have some ventilation, which is why it is an 'advisory' in the BSS.

 

If it is a liveaboard however, the GSIUR applies and ventilation is mandatory for flueless and open flue gas appliances. 

 

[Peanut]

If a gas engineer installed a gas supply and appliances, certified that the instalation complied with the BSS and RCR, would that still require a post construction assessment for a previously compliment boat?

[Alan de Enfield]

33 minutes ago, Peanut said:

If a gas engineer installed a gas supply and appliances, certified that the instalation complied with the BSS and RCR, would that still require a post construction assessment for a previously compliment boat?

 

MY understanding is that any change to the vessel that potentially affects the safety of the vessel has to be checked over as being compliant, and 'signed off' by an approved RCD/RCR examiner who can issue a PCA, RCR / RCD, compliance certificate.

 

I do not believe that individual changes can be signed off by 'Geoffrey the Gasman'.

 

The RCR/RCD compliance certificate relates to the whole boat not just a sub-system.

 

The certificate signed by the examiner / surveyor states "I certify under my responsibility, that the boat described below is completely in compliance with the regulation in force"

 

How would a George the gas bod know (or care) if the fuel supply hose was out of date, or the owner had re-routed 240v cables such that two sources could be live at any one time ?

[Peanut]

2 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

MY understanding is that any change to the vessel that potentially affects the safety of the vessel has to be checked over as being compliant, and 'signed off' by an approved RCD/RCR examiner who can issue a PCA, RCR / RCD, compliance certificate.

 

I do not believe that individual changes can be signed off by 'Geoffrey the Gasman'.

 

The RCR/RCD compliance certificate relates to the whole boat not just a sub-system.

 

The certificate signed by the examiner / surveyor states "I certify under my responsibility, that the boat described below is completely in compliance with the regulation in force"

 

How would a George the gas bod know (or care) if the fuel supply hose was out of date, or the owner had re-routed 240v cables such that two sources could be live at any one time ?

Which goes to show that just like an MOT for a car, the RCR certificate is only valid for the day it is issued, as Geoffrey and George may have been to work since.

[Alan de Enfield]

4 minutes ago, Peanut said:

Which goes to show that just like an MOT for a car, the RCR certificate is only valid for the day it is issued, as Geoffrey and George may have been to work since.

 

The difference being that the RCR/RCD is for the entire life of the vessel, and, it is the owners responsibilty to ensure that it remains compliant, any changes to engine or safety (gas, fuel, buoyancy etc) should result in a PCA and a new RCR/RCD certficate being issued.

 

If a PCA is not done then no one will know, or care (unless the boat sinks or explodes and a claim is made on the insurance) until it is sold and a broker or surveyor sees it is not 'as built' and no longer compliant.

 

The BSS is exactly the same and if you read your certificate you will see a clause about 'having works done' can result in your BSS being withdrawn.

 

From the BSS :

 

The owner’s on-going responsibility: it is crucial to maintain the vessel in good condition in accordance with the safety requirements; and, any other licensing, registration or mooring conditions of the relevant navigation or harbour authority. The validity of a BSS pass result may be affected and can be cancelled if the vessel is not properly maintained; and/or non-compliant alterations are made....

 

[mrsmelly]

4 hours ago, JohnB said:

We have had one of these  Oven/Hob units  on our boat for about 16 Years. And we really do like its function BUT there are issues with its design and serviceability. We don't live aboard but do travel for months at a time and Kathy takes cooking very seriously.

At present we also have an induction hob and are considering bringing the air fryer and/or Remoska for use when long term traveling.

 I won't at this point go into the detail of how I have tried to sort out better functioning but if you can cope with the servicing and have a secondary facility it "should" be OK.

 

John

There are other small problems with the boat including a lithium battery but that's easily removed and sorted. The other bits such as fitting a washing machine are not much of a problem. He's going for a look at it. Trying to find a max 41 foot boat that's as big up to that size as possible is far from easy. He doesn't want a project and would have bought a new beetle but there is a waiting list. An air fryers will suffice as he has mains at the mooring but it's nice to have genuine feedback on the stove.