Business licence

[TheBiscuits]

1 minute ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

For a Narrowboat :

 

In 2024 a CC boat will pay 5% more than a boat with a home mooring

In 2025 a CC boat will pay 10% more than a boat with a home mooring

In 2026 a CC boat will pay 15% more than a boat with a home mooring

In 2027 a CC boat will pay 20% more than a boat with a home mooring

In 2028 a CC boat will pay 25% more than a boat with a home mooring

 

For a Class 3 Widebeam :

 

 

In 2024 a CC boat will pay 31% more than a boat with a home mooring

In 2025 a CC boat will pay 42% more than a boat with a home mooring

In 2026 a CC boat will pay 53% more than a boat with a home mooring

In 2027 a CC boat will pay 64% more than a boat with a home mooring

In 2028 a CC boat will pay 75% more than a boat with a home mooring

 

Isn't being able to read handy

 

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

4 minutes ago, Tacet said:

 

 

So, doesn't this mean a boat with a cc licence will pay (only) 10% more than the same boat with a home mooring?

 

Whether that is a lot more depends on the cost of the home mooring licence and one's view of what amounts to lot more.

in 2 years time 10% more

 

this year 5% more than standard license

next year 10% more 

in 3 years 15% more 

in 4 years 20% more 

in 5 years 25% more 

 

like you say, whether this is enough or too much is down to individual circumstance, opinion and views,

which ever way those figures above are the percentages for the CC surcharge,

which is what we’re trying to understand,

 

and obviously there are further charges over the next 5 years for them with boats wider than a Narrowboat. 

 

 

 

[Arthur Marshall]

3 minutes ago, beerbeerbeerbeerbeer said:

in 2 years time 10% more

 

this year 5% more than standard license

next year 10% more 

in 3 years 15% more 

in 4 years 20% more 

in 5 years 25% more 

 

like you say, whether this is enough or too much is down to individual circumstance, opinion and views,

which ever way those figures above are the percentages for the CC surcharge,

which is what we’re trying to understand,

 

and obviously there are further charges over the next 5 years for them with boats wider than a Narrowboat. 

 

 

 

And it'll still be an awful lot cheaper than paying for any kind of mooring, as indeed it should be, as that was the point of the CC concept in the first place for those on a genuine cruise.

[Alan de Enfield]

5 minutes ago, beerbeerbeerbeerbeer said:

in 2 years time 10% more

 

this year 5% more than standard license

next year 10% more 

in 3 years 15% more 

in 4 years 20% more 

in 5 years 25% more 

 

like you say, whether this is enough or too much is down to individual circumstance, opinion and views,

which ever way those figures above are the percentages for the CC surcharge,

which is what we’re trying to understand,

 

and obviously there are further charges over the next 5 years for them with boats wider than a Narrowboat. 

 

 

 

 

The unknown is what the increase of the 'standard licence' will be .

In the example I gave earlier the calculations were based on a 10% compound increase (last year was 13%)

 

Any CC licence add-ons will be added to whatever increase there is on the 'standard licence'.

 

So if (say) the standard licence for 2024 is 10% higher than 2023, the CC licence will be 15% increase on the 2023 licence cost.

 

If the 2025 standard licence increases by another 10% it will be an increase of 21% on the 2023 cost, but for a CCer it will be a 33% increase on the 2023 cost

 

and so on.

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

44 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

For a Class 3 Widebeam :

 

 

In 2024 a CC boat will pay 31% more than a boat with a home mooring

In 2025 a CC boat will pay 42% more than a boat with a home mooring

In 2026 a CC boat will pay 53% more than a boat with a home mooring

In 2027 a CC boat will pay 64% more than a boat with a home mooring

In 2028 a CC boat will pay 75% more than a boat with a home mooring

 

 

so whether they have home mooring or no , for ALL in band 3;

 

their first year will see an increase of 26%

then 32% in year 2

38% in year 3

44% in year 4

50% in year 5

 

now if they don’t have a home mooring they will also have the extra 5%, 10%, 15%, 20, and finally after 5 years the 25% surcharge 

so then yes, 31%, 42%, 53%, 64%, and finally 75%, IF they have no home mooring, 

(glad I don’t have a fat boat)

 

I think I got all that right

 

none of this takes into account annual inflation, 

which could be 🤷‍♀️ anything, as was pointed out it was something like 13% the other year,

 

Could a band 3 boat this year be an extra 26%+5%+let’s say 10% for inflation = 41% more for the license

 

 

33 minutes ago, Arthur Marshall said:

And it'll still be an awful lot cheaper than paying for any kind of mooring, as indeed it should be, as that was the point of the CC concept in the first place for those on a genuine cruise.

It is…but I ain’t getting into arguing about it anymore 😃,

but it’s important we understand how this works,

I just want to boat, I’ll pay me fee and enjoy while I can. 

 

Edited February 15 by beerbeerbeerbeerbeer

[Tacet]

28 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

For a Narrowboat :

 

In 2024 a CC boat will pay 5% more than a boat with a home mooring

In 2025 a CC boat will pay 10% more than a boat with a home mooring

In 2026 a CC boat will pay 15% more than a boat with a home mooring

In 2027 a CC boat will pay 20% more than a boat with a home mooring

In 2028 a CC boat will pay 25% more than a boat with a home mooring

 

For a Class 3 Widebeam :

 

 

In 2024 a CC boat will pay 31% more than a boat with a home mooring

In 2025 a CC boat will pay 42% more than a boat with a home mooring

In 2026 a CC boat will pay 53% more than a boat with a home mooring

In 2027 a CC boat will pay 64% more than a boat with a home mooring

In 2028 a CC boat will pay 75% more than a boat with a home mooring

Aren't you, in the second part, comparing prices for different width boats? 

 

If so, you could equally claim narrowboat licence charges will be less next year (when compared to a wide beam).  Or in 2026  shorter boats will pay 50% less (than long boats).

 

The bottom line is the same size boat (even a widebeam) will pay 10% more for the cc option than with a home mooring.

 

In this context, anything else is obfuscation by selectively comparing apples and oranges.

[Alan de Enfield]

6 minutes ago, beerbeerbeerbeerbeer said:

Could a band 3 boat this year be an extra 26%+5%+let’s say 10% for inflation = 41% more for the license

 

Yes - for 2024/5 a NB with a home mooring (the standard Licence) would increase by 'inflation and general increases' (say) - 10% compared to 2023/4 licence

The WB with no home mooring would be as you suggest, a 41% increase in cost compared to the 2023 licence cost

[Tacet]

6 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Maybe the lack of understanding will change next year when a 'CC' licence costs more (maybe a lot more) than a 'boat with a home mooring licence'

 

2 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Yes - for 2024/5 a NB with a home mooring (the standard Licence) would increase by 'inflation and general increases' (say) - 10% compared to 2023/4 licence

The WB with no home mooring would be as you suggest, a 41% increase in cost compared to the 2023 licence cost

A Cc licence will cost 10% more than a home mooring licence. That ratio is fixed - assuming the same boat.

 

Different boats will have different starting points - principally relating to size.  It has always been this according to length,; more recently width is a factor too.

 

These are separate issues.

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

5 minutes ago, Tacet said:

A Cc licence will cost 10% more than a home mooring licence. That ratio is fixed - assuming the same boat.

you need to take a look at the chart again,

 

why do you say 10% again?

 

[Alan de Enfield]

20 minutes ago, Tacet said:

Aren't you, in the second part, comparing prices for different width boats? 

 

If so, you could equally claim narrowboat licence charges will be less next year (when compared to a wide beam).  Or in 2026  shorter boats will pay 50% less (than long boats).

 

The bottom line is the same size boat (even a widebeam) will pay 10% more for the cc option than with a home mooring.

 

In this context, anything else is obfuscation by selectively comparing apples and oranges.

 

Yes - you are in part correct as everything is based on the 'standard licence' which is a NB.

 

For 2028

 

A 50 foot widebeam with a home mooring pays 25% more than a 50 foot NB (standard licence with a home mooring).

 

A 50 foot widebeam with no home mooring pays 50% more than a 50 foot NB with no home mooring

 

A 50 foot Narrowboat with no home mooring pays 25% more than a 50 foot Narrowboat with a home mooring

 

A 50 foot Widebeam with no home mooring pays 25% more than a 50 foot Widebeam with a home mooring

 

 

 

14 minutes ago, Tacet said:

A Cc licence will cost 10% more than a home mooring licence. That ratio is fixed - assuming the same boat.

 

You are not correct. The % increases every year

Ther is a 5% adder for 2024

For 2025 it is a 10% adder

For 2026 it is a 15% adder

Foer 2027 it is a 20% adder

For 2027 it is a  25% adder.

 

See the table that C&RT produced

Edited February 15 by Alan de Enfield

[Tacet]

9 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Yes - you are in part correct as everything is based on the 'standard licence' which is a NB.

 

For 2028

 

A 50 foot widebeam with a home mooring pays 25% more than a 50 foot NB (standard licence with a home mooring).

 

A 50 foot widebeam with no home mooring pays 50% more than a 50 foot NB with no home mooring

 

A 50 foot Narrowboat with no home mooring pays 25% more than a 50 foot Narrowboat with a home mooring

 

A 50 foot Widebeam with no home mooring pays 25% more than a 50 foot Widebeam with a home mooring

 

 

 

 

You are not correct. The % increases every year

Ther is a 5% adder for 2024

For 2025 it is a 10% adder

For 2026 it is a 15% adder

Foer 2027 it is a 20% adder

For 2027 it is a  25% adder.

 

See the table that C&RT produced

It is 10% for next year - which was your parameter when additional costs of a CC licence were introduced into this thread.

[Mike Todd]

12 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

So, is it a 5% a year increase on the standard licence (as you and Ian suggest), or,

Is it a 5% increase year on year with year one  being 5% on a standard licence, 10% increase in year 2, 15% in year 3 ..............., as described by C&RT ?

 

 

Maybe Ian didn't actually write what he meant to write ?

It is the surcharge rate that is going up, not the actual licence fee (as the underlying base rate may also increase)

[Alan de Enfield]

44 minutes ago, Mike Todd said:

It is the surcharge rate that is going up, not the actual licence fee (as the underlying base rate may also increase)

 

Yes - the cost of the 'standard licence' is variable and will be increased each year by "X" - which in the past has been the Inflation rate + and base line increase.

 

The surcharges will be increased annually by the percentages shown in the table.

[IanD]

50 minutes ago, Mike Todd said:

It is the surcharge rate that is going up, not the actual licence fee (as the underlying base rate may also increase)

Which is exactly what I wrote -- that the CC surcharge will be going up by 5% per year to a maximum of 25%.

 

Some people may think this is "a lot more", but as has been pointed out it's a tiny fraction of even the cheapest mooring fees that people with a home mooring pay.

[Alan de Enfield]

7 minutes ago, IanD said:

Which is exactly what I wrote -- that the CC surcharge will be going up by 5% per year to a maximum of 25%.

 

 

As I thought - you did not actually post what you meant, and what you have now posted.

[IanD]

4 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

As I thought - you did not actually post what you meant, and what you have now posted.

Huh? These were my *exact* words in the first post I made about this...

 

"I thought the CC surcharge was planned to go up by 5% a year over 5 years?"

 

According to my primary school maths class 5x5=25... 😉

Edited February 16 by IanD

[MtB]

5 minutes ago, IanD said:

Huh? These were my *exact* words in the first post I made about this...

 

"I thought the CC surcharge was planned to go up by 5% a year over 5 years?"

 

According to my primary school maths class 5x5=25... 😉

 

 

Going up by 5% of what though? This is what confuses people.

 

The surcharge doubles in the second year from 5% to 10% of the licence fee. This is. 100% rise in the actual surcharge. The third year it goes up a further 50%, from 10% of the licence fee to 15%.

 

 

[IanD]

26 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

Going up by 5% of what though? This is what confuses people.

 

The surcharge doubles in the second year from 5% to 10% of the licence fee. This is. 100% rise in the actual surcharge. The third year it goes up a further 50%, from 10% of the licence fee to 15%.

 

 

Except for people looking for an argument (maybe not you!), does anyone really think that a CC surcharge which -- in successive years -- is [0%--5%--10%--15%--20%--25%] could be described as doing anything other than going up by 5% per year? It's not compound interest... 😉

 

I suppose to be mathematically more consistent CART could have used a logarithmic series like E6 component values follow, and made it more obvious by making the increase bigger -- for example (relative to the starting point) +15%/+32%/+52%/+74%/+100%, which means the cost *increase* (like compound interest) is 15% per year.

 

I suspect plenty of boaters (not CCers, obvs...) think that a 100% surcharge would be "fairer" than 25%, after all CCers would still be paying a lot less than HMers... 😉

Edited February 16 by IanD

[dmr]

1 hour ago, MtB said:

 

 

Going up by 5% of what though? This is what confuses people.

 

The surcharge doubles in the second year from 5% to 10% of the licence fee. This is. 100% rise in the actual surcharge. The third year it goes up a further 50%, from 10% of the licence fee to 15%.

 

 

 

When there is a percentage change and the quantity that is changing is itself a percentage then things can get very confusing. The common solution, especially in political and some media uses, appears to be to use the term "percentage points".

So, as the surcharge goes up from 5% to 10% it has indeed increased by 100% but only 5 percentage points.

On the subject of media, an increase of 100% would surely be an exponential increase 😀😀

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

18 minutes ago, IanD said:

I suspect plenty of boaters (not CCers, obvs...) think that a 100% surcharge would be "fairer" than 25%, after all CCers would still be paying a lot less than HMers... 😉

is this comment meant to provoke an argument? 

 

 

the object of the discussion over the last page or so is to simply clarify and understand what the surcharges are. 
there’s naturally going to be some confusion and misunderstanding,

some readers struggle with figures and how to interpret them,

 boaters need to understand what the figures mean. 
 

this;

37 minutes ago, IanD said:

I suppose to be mathematically more consistent CART could have used a logarithmic series like E6 component values follow, and made it more obvious by making the increase bigger -- for example (relative to the starting point) +15%/+32%/+52%/+74%/+100%, which means the cost *increase* (like compound interest) is 15% per year.

and this;

1 hour ago, MtB said:

The surcharge doubles in the second year from 5% to 10% of the licence fee. This is. 100% rise in the actual surcharge. The third year it goes up a further 50%, from 10% of the licence fee to 15%.

 

might very well be correct statements but they do nothing to simplify and clarify what’s happening. They add confusion. 

[IanD]

5 minutes ago, dmr said:

 

When there is a percentage change and the quantity that is changing is itself a percentage then things can get very confusing. The common solution, especially in political and some media uses, appears to be to use the term "percentage points".

So, as the surcharge goes up from 5% to 10% it has indeed increased by 100% but only 5 percentage points.

On the subject of media, an increase of 100% would surely be an exponential increase 😀😀

You mean because "the media" doesn't understand what exponential actually means? 😉

 

(or "decimated"...)

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

6 minutes ago, dmr said:

When there is a percentage change and the quantity that is changing is itself a percentage then things can get very confusing.

cheers, you’ve just confused me,

because that’s not what’s happening…is it?

1 minute ago, IanD said:

You mean because "the media" doesn't understand what exponential actually means? 😉

 

(or "decimated"...)

 Right I’m out of here,

someone’s got their cock out again

[MtB]

5 minutes ago, beerbeerbeerbeerbeer said:

cheers, you’ve just confused me,

because that’s not what’s happening…is it?

 Right I’m out of here,

someone’s got their cock out again

 

 

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

1 hour ago, beerbeerbeerbeerbeer said:

cheers, you’ve just confused me,

because that’s not what’s happening…is it?

 Right I’m out of here,

someone’s got their cock out again

 

Agreed - Why everyone cannot just look at the self explanatory table published by C&RT I don't know.

 

Its all explained such that even someone with 10 post graduate degrees can understand it. I'm not sure why the confusion.

 

The only factor that is not explained is the cost of the 'Standard Licence' which will vary by a (currently) unknown amount each year and the 'percentage surcharges' (actual £s) are then based on that figure.

[Arthur Marshall]

2 hours ago, IanD said:

 

I suspect plenty of boaters (not CCers, obvs...) think that a 100% surcharge would be "fairer" than 25%, after all CCers would still be paying a lot less than HMers... 😉

I doubt it. A genuine CCer has expenses a home moorer, most of whom visit their boat a few weeks a year at most, don't have. They also perform a lot of other useful functions, such as keeping the system open all year and spotting potential problems. I wouldn't be surprised if the surcharge goes up to about 50% though, or to an averaged out amount of the EOG fees charged round the country (which would probably be nearer 80%). But the whole point of the differentiation was because some people had no need of a mooring, because they cruised the system while living on their boats (I'm ignoring daft paradoxical interpretations of the law ).

A continuous cruiser who doesn't move much is an entirely different matter, as are the serial dumpers, but that's a different fish kettle for CRT to tackle and has nothing to do with licences or mooring fees.