Licence increase announced 2024-25

[The Grey Goose]

My 60 × 11ft widebeam licence is falling by apx 130 quid from January 1st.

However only because I am junking my 6 yrs worth of Gold licence and becoming a Ccer on The Thames with an EA badge , Ive never even been on the Canal network but was always happy to contribute but the price difference from here on in is going to hurt.

Unfortunately thats more money lost to the CRT and now going into Government pockets.😞

Edited November 29, 2023 by The Grey Goose
Update

[Arthur Marshall]

11 minutes ago, IanD said:

Out of that increase (£360 to £543 is +£183 which is 50%), the recently announced increases of 6% overall and 13% wideboat supplement (IIRC this was zero in 2021) account for half (+£90), the rest is presumably just year-on-year rises which look to be about 8% per year (over 3 years). Which seems high, are you sure your numbers are correct?

I think there were two price rises one year, so it went up by about 13%. This one is quite mild...

[Alan de Enfield]

10 minutes ago, The Grey Goose said:

My 60 × 11ft widebeam licence

 

Same as us 'band 3' but we are 14 foot beam.

[cuthound]

49 minutes ago, Cheshire cat said:

 

The worst ones are the ones made from tube steel that narrow towards the top. Think they are made by a company in Rotherham. Effective against motorbikes but a PITA for MTB bikes too. One near me has been modified by someone with a battery angle grinder.

 

Yes but do they work for everyone else's bikes other than Mike the Boilerman? 😀😂

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

46 minutes ago, Arthur Marshall said:

I think there were two price rises one year, so it went up by about 13%. This one is quite mild...

It is for me and you 👍 at 6%,

 

but for anyone facing a surcharge it’s gonna be a minimum of 11%,

Just had a mooch at the price of a river only license and there’s quite a substantial saving to be had, if one were wanting to live even cheaper. 

Edited November 29, 2023 by beerbeerbeerbeerbeer

[Alan de Enfield]

3 minutes ago, beerbeerbeerbeerbeer said:

Just had a mooch at the price of a river only license and there’s quite a substantial saving to be had, if one were wanting to live even cheaper. 

 

The law states that the River Only Registration (its not actually a licence) MUST be 60% of the charge of the equivalent River & Canal licence.

 

It should actually be even cheaper because there is VAT to be added to a licence but not to a registration) C&RT call it a licence to make the VAT accounting easier (and it of course gives them a higher income)

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

19 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

The law states that the River Only Registration (its not actually a licence) MUST be 60% of the charge of the equivalent River & Canal licence.

 

It should actually be even cheaper because there is VAT to be added to a licence but not to a registration) C&RT call it a licence to make the VAT accounting easier (and it of course gives them a higher income)

dare I ask why the law says registration and not license?

something to do with historic navigation rights 🤷‍♀️

Edited November 29, 2023 by beerbeerbeerbeerbeer

[Alan de Enfield]

1 hour ago, beerbeerbeerbeerbeer said:

dare I ask why the law says registration and not license?

 

 

Basically

A licence allows you to do something that without the licence would be illegal (navigating on 'private waterways for example)

You have a right of navigation on rivers so you do not need to be licenced, but, to keep control of who is on the rivers each boat is registered.

 

Licences are subjected to VAT but Registrations are not - as C&RT well know and have discussed internally about how to use loopholes so that VAT can be added to the registration fee - firstly by calling it a licence.

 

Slightly different but .....................

Here is an extract from an internal email discussing ways to avoid the canoeists having to pay VAT, as per their (the canoeists) EA registration.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 29, 2023 by Alan de Enfield

[Momac]

2 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

(and it of course gives them a higher income)

 

If they charge VAT is that not passed on to HMRC?

[Arthur Marshall]

27 minutes ago, MartynG said:

 

If they charge VAT is that not passed on to HMRC?

I think that's what the original debate re this was about. If it's a registration, there would be no need to pass it on to HMRC, so CRT could just pocket it, which you could argue would be fraudulent . The logical thing to do would be to ask someone at HMRC (or CRT) if it was being paid over but as far as I know nobody ever bothered. I suspect it is and HMRC just assume they deserve it.

[Alan de Enfield]

43 minutes ago, MartynG said:

 

If they charge VAT is that not passed on to HMRC?

 

There is some peculiar agreement (which I don't have full knowledge of) going back to BW days where they elected to register for VAT but it was some weird system - something like - they could claim back the VAT they paid, but kept the VAT they charged.

 

I think Allen (Albert) has the details. I'm sure he has mentioned it in years past.

 

@Allan(nb Albert)

 

Edited November 29, 2023 by Alan de Enfield

[Naughty Cal]

6 hours ago, IanD said:

Out of that increase (£360 to £543 is +£183 which is 50%), the recently announced increases of 6% overall and 13% wideboat supplement (IIRC this was zero in 2021) account for half (+£90), the rest is presumably just year-on-year rises which look to be about 8% per year (over 3 years). Which seems high, are you sure your numbers are correct?

Absolutely. 

[Allan(nb Albert)]

2 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

There is some peculiar agreement (which I don't have full knowledge of) going back to BW days where they elected to register for VAT but it was some weird system - something like - they could claim back the VAT they paid, but kept the VAT they charged.

 

I think Allen (Albert) has the details. I'm sure he has mentioned it in years past.

 

@Allan(nb Albert)

 

I have not really looked into this and don't know if it is true or not but for what it is worth - 

 

I was told more than a decade ago that VAT is not chargable on what CRT calls a Rivers Only Licence. This is because it is not really a licence but a registration certificate (aka PBC). The difference is that a licence is a service (permission to use a waterway) but the right to use a river already exists so a PBC is not a service.

 

By law CRT may not charge more than 60% of the equivilent licence fee for a PBC. It charges 60% of the licence fee plus VAT and pockets the VAT element

 

 

[Momac]

Rivers only . 3.3m wide boat with home mooring.

In 2021 I paid £284 for  6 months license

In April 2024 it will be £429 for 6 months

An increase of 50% over 3 years 

And  set to rise steeply in following years due to the ever increasing widebeam supplement.

 

 

[Allan(nb Albert)]

7 minutes ago, MartynG said:

Rivers only . 3.3m wide boat with home mooring.

In 2021 I paid £284 for  6 months license

In April 2024 it will be £429 for 6 months

An increase of 50% over 3 years 

And  set to rise steeply in following years due to the ever increasing widebeam supplement.

 

 

It's peculiar how little attention has been given to CRT putting a second surcharge on wider boats ...

[MtB]

1 minute ago, Allan(nb Albert) said:

It's peculiar how little attention has been given to CRT putting a second surcharge on wider boats ...

 

Probably because most consider it fair and reasonable.

 

 

[Momac]

1 minute ago, Allan(nb Albert) said:

It's peculiar how little attention has been given to CRT putting a second surcharge on wider boats ...

Not surprising on this  forum which is mostly inhabited by narrowboaters 

6 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

Probably because most consider it fair and reasonable.

 

 

Most what?

You mean most people who own a narrowboat?

 

[MtB]

20 minutes ago, MartynG said:

Rivers only . 3.3m wide boat with home mooring.

In 2021 I paid £284 for  6 months license

In April 2024 it will be £429 for 6 months

An increase of 50% over 3 years 

And  set to rise steeply in following years due to the ever increasing widebeam supplement.

 

 

Good.

 

Given your 3.3m wide boat probably has about the same accommodation as my 45ft narrow boat which costs about a grand+ a year, your £429 seems a raving bargain and should be doubled at least. 

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

19 minutes ago, MtB said:

your £429 seems a raving bargain and should be doubled at least. 

 

41 minutes ago, MartynG said:

In April 2024 it will be £429 for 6 months

 

[Guest]

26 minutes ago, MartynG said:

Not surprising on this  forum which is mostly inhabited by narrowboaters 

Most what?

You mean most people who own a narrowboat?

 

 

Exactly this.

 

A wide beam is obviously wider than a narrow boat but is normally confined to waterways wide enough to accommodate them. So if you consider things on a pro rata basis regarding it's width there is an argument that they shouldn't be charged anything extra at all.

 

Not as in the north south divide but rather the square footage of the waterway they occupy versus the with of that waterway.

[Momac]

15 minutes ago, M_JG said:

 

Exactly this.

 

A wide beam is obviously wider than a narrow boat but is normally confined to waterways wide enough to accommodate them. So if you consider things on a pro rata basis regarding it's width there is an argument that they shouldn't be charged anything extra at all.

In my local area , The River Trent, the width of the boat is irrelevant as far as navigation and mooring are concerned.

[IanD]

1 hour ago, MartynG said:

Not surprising on this  forum which is mostly inhabited by narrowboaters 

Most what?

You mean most people who own a narrowboat?

 

Most boaters. Because most boaters are narrowboaters. The same way that most boaters are not CCers but have a home mooring. It's all to do with the numbers, innit... 😉

[Guest]

53 minutes ago, MartynG said:

In my local area , The River Trent, the width of the boat is irrelevant as far as navigation and mooring are concerned.

 

I think that was my point.

[Momac]

Just now, M_JG said:

 

I think that was my point.

Yes. Just agreeing and and reinforcing your point.

3 minutes ago, IanD said:

Because most boaters are narrowboaters. 

Only on the canals. Not necessarily  on the River.

[IanD]

6 minutes ago, MartynG said:

Yes. Just agreeing and and reinforcing your point.

Only on the canals. Not necessarily  on the River.

So do you know how many of the 35000 boats who pay CART license fees will be paying the wideboat supplements?

 

I believe the answer is a relatively small minority, like CCers. But if you have actual numbers which show otherwise, I'll happily change my belief 🙂

Edited November 29, 2023 by IanD