Installing an extra cast iron radiator on a system run by Autoterm flow 5 diesel boiler

[Roberto Conigliaro]

Hi all, I'd like to add an extra radiator in the bedroom of our boaty Pal, where there are none. 
There are three other radiators installed across the boat and the system works very well - the Autoterm flow 5  boiler should also be able to handle another 3128 BTU / 900 watt so I was thinking to install the one showed on the below photo. 

I'd like to do the job myself so any general advice would be really appreciated, and in particular:
- do iron cast radiators work well on narrowboats? 
- where would you suggest to buy the right tools to do the job?
- would it be tricky to fit copper pipes (which would look better since the new pipes will be exposed) to the plastic pipes which are already in place? or easier to just go for the push fit plastic ones?

 

Cheers!

[Tony Brooks]

As this will be almost hard on the side, have you thought about the need to remove or shift ballast. A cast iron radiator will not be light.

[Roberto Conigliaro]

Hi, thanks for the advice - luckily it will be in the middle since it'll be fitted on the wall behind the toilet room

[Tracy D'arth]

You are aware that the picture is of a 10 section not an 8 which the output figure is for?

 

Tee into each of flow and return, 15mm plastic push fit pipe until it shows then 15mm copper into push fit couplers or elbows then into the compression fittings on the radiator valves. Remember the inserts in plastic pipes!

[BEngo]

A plumbers merchant like Plumbcenter will sell the tools.  You need at least a pair of adjustable spanners,  a plastic pipe cutter  ( though a junior hacksaw will do if the access to the flow and return pipes is good), a copper pipe cutter  (or hacksaw if you can cut square) and some PTFE tape or pipe sealant.  

 

You use the ordinary plastic  push fit fittings  ( with metal inserts in the plastic pipe) to join the plastic pipe to the copper pipe. Use standard copper/brass compression fittings to join to the radiator.

 

Make sure to fit manual valves at the inlet and the outlet and a bleed valve at the top.  Victorian stylecradiators are typically fitted with the inlet at the top and the outlet at the opposite bottom corner though this is not essential.

 

Refill the system with 50 % antifreeze, suitable for mixed metals,  or your copper and cast iron will make a small battery.

 

You may need to rebalance the system. ( Adjust the radiator lockshield valves so the  flow through all the radiators is the same).

 

N

[Paringa]

Earlier this year i replaced some of my radiators with a new pair from that same company you are looking at... Well recommended.

 

I can't say if they will play well with your boiler but they do hold their heat and are a joy to look at.

 

Mine are on a barge and on either side so no weight distribution problems, but they are very heavy to move.

 

Installation doesn't require any special tools, although a large adjustable for the end bushes will be needed.

 

I found a combination of PTFE tape and Fernox LSX worked well for the tails, the LSX only method recommended by the seller did not work for me.

 

I used chrome pipes for appearance but chrome pipes are not recommended with push-fit fittings (under the plinth in my install, tee'd off the main pipes) as they can slide out under pressure. I was able to stop that happening, but up to you.

 

Edited October 30, 2023 by Paringa
Clarity....i think

[Roberto Conigliaro]

Very well spotted! yes the pictures doesn't show the one I'd like to get. Nice tip - so it's fine to start with plastic fittings and then connect copper ones. Is it not okay to instal push fittings on the radiators valves? if not, what tool do I require to install compression fittings? 

Also what inserts in plastic pipes? sorry for the very basic questions - I am very new to anything plumbing related.

Thanks so much! 

18 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

You are aware that the picture is of a 10 section not an 8 which the output figure is for?

 

Tee into each of flow and return, 15mm plastic push fit pipe until it shows then 15mm copper into push fit couplers or elbows then into the compression fittings on the radiator valves. Remember the inserts in plastic pipes!

Very well spotted! yes the pictures doesn't show the one I'd like to get. Nice tip - so it's fine to start with plastic fittings and then connect copper ones. Is it not okay to instal push fittings on the radiators valves? if not, what tool do I require to install compression fittings? 

Also what inserts in plastic pipes? sorry for the very basic questions - I am very new to anything plumbing related.

Thanks so much! 

[Tracy D'arth]

Chrome rad valves are compression screwup with a metal olive, not push fit, need a spanner for the nuts. The plastic pipe has to have interior support or it will shrink when hot, the insert stops this.

[system 4-50]

About this time of year I usually put in a plug for Loctite 55 string for securing BSP fittings.  This may or may not be of interest in this case.

[cuthound]

1 hour ago, BEngo said:

A plumbers merchant like Plumbcenter will sell the tools.  You need at least a pair of adjustable spanners,  a plastic pipe cutter  ( though a junior hacksaw will do if the access to the flow and return pipes is good), a copper pipe cutter  (or hacksaw if you can cut square) and some PTFE tape or pipe sealant.  

 

You use the ordinary plastic  push fit fittings  ( with metal inserts in the plastic pipe) to join the plastic pipe to the copper pipe. Use standard copper/brass compression fittings to join to the radiator.

 

Make sure to fit manual valves at the inlet and the outlet and a bleed valve at the top.  Victorian stylecradiators are typically fitted with the inlet at the top and the outlet at the opposite bottom corner though this is not essential.

 

Refill the system with 50 % antifreeze, suitable for mixed metals,  or your copper and cast iron will make a small battery.

 

You may need to rebalance the system. ( Adjust the radiator lockshield valves so the  flow through all the radiators is the same).

 

N

 

When I filled my heating system with a 50% antifreeze/water mix, the radiators refused to get hot.

 

I reduced it to a 25% antifreeze/water mix and everything returned to normal. 

[Tacet]

It's more work - but I think cast iron rads look best with chunky iron pipes and  wheel top valves

[Roberto Conigliaro]

17 hours ago, BEngo said:

A plumbers merchant like Plumbcenter will sell the tools.  You need at least a pair of adjustable spanners,  a plastic pipe cutter  ( though a junior hacksaw will do if the access to the flow and return pipes is good), a copper pipe cutter  (or hacksaw if you can cut square) and some PTFE tape or pipe sealant.  

 

You use the ordinary plastic  push fit fittings  ( with metal inserts in the plastic pipe) to join the plastic pipe to the copper pipe. Use standard copper/brass compression fittings to join to the radiator.

 

Make sure to fit manual valves at the inlet and the outlet and a bleed valve at the top.  Victorian stylecradiators are typically fitted with the inlet at the top and the outlet at the opposite bottom corner though this is not essential.

 

Refill the system with 50 % antifreeze, suitable for mixed metals,  or your copper and cast iron will make a small battery.

 

You may need to rebalance the system. ( Adjust the radiator lockshield valves so the  flow through all the radiators is the same).

 

N

 

Thank you so much for the advice - very well explained.

Just one doubt : shall I use 50 % ready-mix anti freezer or the concentrate one? also the pink or blue one, if that make any difference? 

 

Roberto

[Tracy D'arth]

1 minute ago, Roberto Conigliaro said:

 

Thank you so much for the advice - very well explained.

Just one doubt : shall I use 50 % ready-mix anti freezer or the concentrate one? also the pink or blue one, if that make any difference? 

 

Roberto

You need an antifreeze that is compatible with all the metals in your heating system. I don't know what your boiler is made from.

Do not use at a concentration higher than 33% no matter if you buy ready diluted or concentrate, dilute it down to this figure.

25% is adequate.

Colour to choice, most are using long life pink these days.

[Roberto Conigliaro]

17 hours ago, Paringa said:

Earlier this year i replaced some of my radiators with a new pair from that same company you are looking at... Well recommended.

 

I can't say if they will play well with your boiler but they do hold their heat and are a joy to look at.

 

Mine are on a barge and on either side so no weight distribution problems, but they are very heavy to move.

 

Installation doesn't require any special tools, although a large adjustable for the end bushes will be needed.

 

I found a combination of PTFE tape and Fernox LSX worked well for the tails, the LSX only method recommended by the seller did not work for me.

 

I used chrome pipes for appearance but chrome pipes are not recommended with push-fit fittings (under the plinth in my install, tee'd off the main pipes) as they can slide out under pressure. I was able to stop that happening, but up to you.

 

Looking beautifully! Thanks so much for the tips. How was  the delivery time with cast iron radiator centre? 

17 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

You need an antifreeze that is compatible with all the metals in your heating system. I don't know what your boiler is made from.

Do not use at a concentration higher than 33% no matter if you buy ready diluted or concentrate, dilute it down to this figure.

25% is adequate.

Colour to choice, most are using long life pink these days.

okay great - I'll ask the boiler company, thank so much again.

[Roberto Conigliaro]

Hi all, I have everything ready top install the radiator, I believe I know where to put my hands in order to do that but I was wondering if somebody would be able to help me and advice what's the best way to drain the system? I see three outlet valves in the system I wonder which one should I use?

And if somebody could also help me to understand how the all system works, from the boiler to che calorifier.. how come the antifreeze doesn't get into into the hot water tank? why are there two pipes from the calorifier going into the engine? 

I have got some photos to show the whole system 

1. Water inlet 

2. Boiler & 1st outlet valve 

3. Engine with two pipes coming from the calorifier in 

4. Next section before calorifier 

5. Calorifier section (two more outlet valves on the right side)

6. Where I’ll tee up to add the extra radiator 

 

 

 

Here the photos 5A, 5B and 6 

 

Thanks a so much

[PeterF]

To answer a couple of your questions. The calorifier has  two pipes running inside it. The central heating water flows through one of these pipes so the central heating water is separate to the hot water and does not mix heat is transferred through the pipe. Hot water from your engine goes through the other pipe so when you run the engine you can also get hot water.

[Tracy D'arth]

Drain from the lowest drain tap on the pipes going to the radiators, a wet vac is the easy way to cope with the water coming out.

[David Mack]

The lowest pipe connection on the calorifier is the cold water in from the tank via the water pump. The highest is the hot water out to the hot taps. Between these are two pairs of connections. The two connections of each pair are connected by a coil of pipe within the calorifier. One of these coils is connected to your central heating system and the other to the engine cooling system. So either (or both) your central heating and your engine can heat the domestic water in the calorifier. Thus there are three separate water systems - domestic, central heating and engine cooling, but there can be no exchange of liquid between them (just heat).

[Roberto Conigliaro]

On 09/11/2023 at 20:17, David Mack said:

The lowest pipe connection on the calorifier is the cold water in from the tank via the water pump. The highest is the hot water out to the hot taps. Between these are two pairs of connections. The two connections of each pair are connected by a coil of pipe within the calorifier. One of these coils is connected to your central heating system and the other to the engine cooling system. So either (or both) your central heating and your engine can heat the domestic water in the calorifier. Thus there are three separate water systems - domestic, central heating and engine cooling, but there can be no exchange of liquid between them (just heat).

 

Thank you so much all, very much appreciate it and almost all clear now - I have got a few more questions though:

 

- all the drain valves seemed to be connected to the domestic water so I still wonder how shall I drain the radiator system liquid? shall I use the drain valve near the boiler, although this one it's at an high position?  (pic 1)

- What's the function of the small white tank? I see it's connected to the domestic cold water pipe and to the pump (pic 2) 

- how does the pump also works with the domestic hot water even if It doesn't seem to have any connection with it (pic 3)

- why is there a gas pipe going into the calorifier? how do I heat the water with gas? (pic 4)

 

Cheers for your help,

 

Roberto

[Tony Brooks]

1 hour ago, Roberto Conigliaro said:

 

Thank you so much all, very much appreciate it and almost all clear now - I have got a few more questions though:

 

- all the drain valves seemed to be connected to the domestic water so I still wonder how shall I drain the radiator system liquid? shall I use the drain valve near the boiler, although this one it's at an high position?  (pic 1)

- What's the function of the small white tank? I see it's connected to the domestic cold water pipe and to the pump (pic 2) 

- how does the pump also works with the domestic hot water even if It doesn't seem to have any connection with it (pic 3)

- why is there a gas pipe going into the calorifier? how do I heat the water with gas? (pic 4)

 

Cheers for your help,

 

Roberto

 

 

 

 

The small white tank is either an accumulator, an expansion vessel or even acting as both, depending upon which domestic water pipe it is connected to and where any non-return valve is connected in the domestic water circuit.

 

It is not a gas pipe, it is the drain pipe for the pressure relief valve, the thing with the red cap. It may run to a skin fitting or simply drain into the engine bay bilge.

 

I can't see clearly enough to be sure of this, but you can drain some of the system via the drain point you talk of, but you will still have to drain the lower part, possibly into a tray by a radiator connection using a wet & dry vac to keep the tray clear of water. Check there is no drain at the end of a pipe in the engine room.

[Roberto Conigliaro]

1 hour ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

The small white tank is either an accumulator, an expansion vessel or even acting as both, depending upon which domestic water pipe it is connected to and where any non-return valve is connected in the domestic water circuit.

 

It is not a gas pipe, it is the drain pipe for the pressure relief valve, the thing with the red cap. It may run to a skin fitting or simply drain into the engine bay bilge.

 

I can't see clearly enough to be sure of this, but you can drain some of the system via the drain point you talk of, but you will still have to drain the lower part, possibly into a tray by a radiator connection using a wet & dry vac to keep the tray clear of water. Check there is no drain at the end of a pipe in the engine room.

 

Thanks so much Tony, all makes sense now.

 

Have a nice weekend! 

[Francis Herne]

Can I just say it's great to have clear photos of all relevant parts of the system.

 

Several similar threads descended into mass confusion and wild guessing about what the questioner was trying to describe. This one is perfect.

[Tony Brooks]

4 minutes ago, Francis Herne said:

Can I just say it's great to have clear photos of all relevant parts of the system.

 

Several similar threads descended into mass confusion and wild guessing about what the questioner was trying to describe. This one is perfect.

 

I so agree, well done Roberto.

[Roberto Conigliaro]

On 13/11/2023 at 15:40, Francis Herne said:

Can I just say it's great to have clear photos of all relevant parts of the system.

 

Several similar threads descended into mass confusion and wild guessing about what the questioner was trying to describe. This one is perfect.

Thank you! did try my best :)

On 11/11/2023 at 12:59, Tony Brooks said:

 

The small white tank is either an accumulator, an expansion vessel or even acting as both, depending upon which domestic water pipe it is connected to and where any non-return valve is connected in the domestic water circuit.

 

It is not a gas pipe, it is the drain pipe for the pressure relief valve, the thing with the red cap. It may run to a skin fitting or simply drain into the engine bay bilge.

 

I can't see clearly enough to be sure of this, but you can drain some of the system via the drain point you talk of, but you will still have to drain the lower part, possibly into a tray by a radiator connection using a wet & dry vac to keep the tray clear of water. Check there is no drain at the end of a pipe in the engine room.

 

Hi Tony, now that I know what's the small tank for, I wonder if it can be the cause of a problem i had in the past recent days:

 

The water pump is not in synch with the taps : it actives a few second later I open any tap and it switches off a few seconds after i close the tap - this happened after the water tank got empty (didn't find a water point around Cheshunt..), it is a problem that occurred in the past already but usually it solves itself after a few hours, this time seems to persist. I guess there's some air in the system, I was wondering if you would have any idea of how this can be fixed?

[Tracy D'arth]

44 minutes ago, Roberto Conigliaro said:

Thank you! did try my best

 

Hi Tony, now that I know what's the small tank for, I wonder if it can be the cause of a problem i had in the past recent days:

 

The water pump is not in synch with the taps : it actives a few second later I open any tap and it switches off a few seconds after i close the tap - this happened after the water tank got empty (didn't find a water point around Cheshunt..), it is a problem that occurred in the past already but usually it solves itself after a few hours, this time seems to persist. I guess there's some air in the system, I was wondering if you would have any idea of how this can be fixed?

But that is exactly how it is supposed to work!  I suggest you do some reading and learn about water systems on boats. The accumulator does just that, accumulates the pressure by storing water in the tank under pressure. When you open a tap the pressure starts to drop until the pump cuts in. on stopping the flow the pump runs on to recharge the accumulator.

There is no "Sync" between tank and tap, there is nothing wrong. 

Have you cured any leak which was causing the pump to come on spasmodically

48 minutes ago, Roberto Conigliaro said:

 

?