Help I put Oil into the wrong place (Air valve)

[magnetman]

I wouldn't be taking the injectors out at this point. Surely if the decompressors are doing their job the oil in the bores will be shoved out when turning the engine.

 

The visible tappet screws look funny but apparently they have not been adjusted. 

 

 

11 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

 

Edited to add - end of paragraph 1.  Unless a nut or other debris was already in the inlet manifold and it got washed into the cylinder or has jammed under a valve. 

 

I can't remember if the air intake cap is just placed on and held by gravity or if there is a nut or screw securing it. If there was something securing it then where is it. 

 

Air filter securing hardware has been known to end up in the intake but it isn't very common. 

 

 

 

Edited September 19 by magnetman
Autoincorrect

[MtB]

It sounds to me as though the engine is hydraulically locked with oil in one cylinder. This would explain the failure of either the starter motor or the raised hand start to rotate the engine. 

 

I think the decompressors have not been properly engaged. With the three linked together like that, tey won't be "that bit stiffer" as Tony suggests but three times as stiff as a single compressor operated in isolation, and a lot of force will be needed to compress the three valve springs all in unison. My gut feeling is the OP is being far too timid with it. Give it a really good shove over. Also, if one cyl is hydraulically locked, opening the decompressor on it might be nigh on impossible due to the fluid pressure in the cylinder.

 

 

[magnetman]

The decompressor arms do bend I have seen snapped ones so caution on the force. 

 

It did make me nervous when the OP said they 'adjusted the decompressors'. I'm sure someone has adjusted the visible tappet screws. They look wound out but perhaps its normal. 

 

 

From OP "but as a friend pointed out last night, after adjusting the decompressors when it first happened..." 

 

If someone had been tightening or loosening the screws visible on the image it would cause problems. 

 

 

 

The slots are showing signs of force from a screwdriver. 

[Tony Brooks]

15 minutes ago, magnetman said:

The decompressor arms do bend I have seen snapped ones so caution on the force. 

 

It did make me nervous when the OP said they 'adjusted the decompressors'. I'm sure someone has adjusted the visible tappet screws. They look wound out but perhaps its normal. 

 

 

From OP "but as a friend pointed out last night, after adjusting the decompressors when it first happened..." 

 

If someone had been tightening or loosening the screws visible on the image it would cause problems. 

 

 

 

The slots are showing signs of force from a screwdriver. 

 

Of course it could, and with that length of thread showing, they may not even be lifting the valves. The OP needs to look down the holes and make sure he can see all three valve moving downwards as he moves the decompressor lever. That is apart from any that are held down by the camshaft etc.

 

Although brutal and not to be recommended, I think he could turn the engine BACKWARDS by a pair of stilsons on the splined extension shaft that may stick out of the camshaft. If it is the starter, that may be enough to free it. That way at least he knows it will turn backwards. Note to OP, it will not be easy to turn because  it is geared up to the crankshaft, but by going backwards you should not hit compression for maybe 3/4 turn.

[MtB]

54 minutes ago, magnetman said:

It did make me nervous when the OP said they 'adjusted the decompressors'.

 

I agree, this sounds dead dodgy and the detail needs investigating.

 

Dear Mr Badger, what did you do to adjust the compressors, exactly please?

 

What made you think they needed adjusting? How did you decide what setting to adjust and which way to adjust it? How did you know when it was set correctly?

 

 

[MrBadger]

21 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

I agree, this sounds dead dodgy and the detail needs investigating.

 

Dear Mr Badger, what did you do to adjust the compressors, exactly please?

 

What made you think they needed adjusting? How did you decide what setting to adjust and which way to adjust it? How did you know when it was set correctly?

 

 

I did not mean adjusting, I meant move them across as told to do. I am very new to boating and do not know where I could access a course on the mechanics of engines so the language is tricky for me. I have not done anything drastic to them yet. I bled the decompression after having my fuel cleaned some time ago and that worked but I have not done that in this case. 

 

When I get the bolt off for the starter motor I will explore that potential solution otherwise I do plan on removing the rocker covers to loosen the injectors as suggested, but don't plan on fiddling with anything else unless advised. 

 

Thanks for your help it's really appreciated I am running low on water etc and quite far from facilities, so really hoping I can get the engine going soon! 

1 hour ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

Of course it could, and with that length of thread showing, they may not even be lifting the valves. The OP needs to look down the holes and make sure he can see all three valve moving downwards as he moves the decompressor lever. That is apart from any that are held down by the camshaft etc.

 

Although brutal and not to be recommended, I think he could turn the engine BACKWARDS by a pair of stilsons on the splined extension shaft that may stick out of the camshaft. If it is the starter, that may be enough to free it. That way at least he knows it will turn backwards. Note to OP, it will not be easy to turn because  it is geared up to the crankshaft, but by going backwards you should not hit compression for maybe 3/4 turn.

Thanks for the tips on looking into the valve I will do that. 

 

I think I know what you mean the part you are referring to is just about touching the back wall and I think I need a pin spanner or something as do not want to damage the metal .I will post a picture!

1 hour ago, magnetman said:

The decompressor arms do bend I have seen snapped ones so caution on the force. 

 

It did make me nervous when the OP said they 'adjusted the decompressors'. I'm sure someone has adjusted the visible tappet screws. They look wound out but perhaps its normal. 

 

 

From OP "but as a friend pointed out last night, after adjusting the decompressors when it first happened..." 

 

If someone had been tightening or loosening the screws visible on the image it would cause problems. 

 

 

 

The slots are showing signs of force from a screwdriver. 

Ah I have done that in the past when trying to start the engine after a fuel clean when I first got it (it had diesel bug) however it worked and the boat was running great until the oil accident on Sunday ..what should I do in relation to them now?

2 hours ago, magnetman said:

I wouldn't be taking the injectors out at this point. Surely if the decompressors are doing their job the oil in the bores will be shoved out when turning the engine.

 

The visible tappet screws look funny but apparently they have not been adjusted. 

 

 

 

I can't remember if the air intake cap is just placed on and held by gravity or if there is a nut or screw securing it. If there was something securing it then where is it. 

 

Air filter securing hardware has been known to end up in the intake but it isn't very common. 

 

 

 

Ok I will pause on injectors, the cap is just a screw on

1 hour ago, MtB said:

It sounds to me as though the engine is hydraulically locked with oil in one cylinder. This would explain the failure of either the starter motor or the raised hand start to rotate the engine. 

 

I think the decompressors have not been properly engaged. With the three linked together like that, tey won't be "that bit stiffer" as Tony suggests but three times as stiff as a single compressor operated in isolation, and a lot of force will be needed to compress the three valve springs all in unison. My gut feeling is the OP is being far too timid with it. Give it a really good shove over. Also, if one cyl is hydraulically locked, opening the decompressor on it might be nigh on impossible due to the fluid pressure in the cylinder.

 

 

Thanks for this I'm going to do my best!

[magnetman]

Is the battery definitely well charged? A clicking starter can be a low battery or a bad connection.

 

Worth just checking that in case it has randomly coincided with the oil thing. 

 

If the decompressors are doing what they are meant to do ie lifting the valves then the engine should turn over even if there is oil in one of the cylinders because by having valves partly open there is an escape route. 

 

If it doesn't turn then either the decompressors are doing nothing or there is an object of some sort in the system. 

 

Is there any possibility that something could have been dropped into the air intake ? 

 

 

Also going back to the oil thing. Why were you adding lube oil to the engine in the first place? Was the dipstick level unusually low? 

 

 

 

 

Also can you upload a picture of the starting handle that came with the engine. 

[Tony Brooks]

1 hour ago, MrBadger said:

I am very new to boating and do not know where I could access a course on the mechanics of engines so the language is tricky for me.

 

You could spend money or spend a bit of time studying the various notes on my website. The RYA franchise course such as you may want, but the quality control sometimes seems to be lacking. I hope other members can make a recommendation from personal experience.

[magnetman]

Another possibility is that someone has loosened the nuts holding the rocker covers down perhaps thinking they might want to remove the covers to have a look. 

 

If one were to loosen these nuts while the decompressor levers were in the position where they are acting on the valves the effect would be to defeat the decompressors because the levers are fixed to the rocker covers. 

 

When tightening or loosening the covers the decompressors must be in the non loaded 'run' position rather than the 'start' position where they will be loaded by the valve springs. 

 

 

[MrBadger]

Starting work on it again tomorrow as I had to work late today - another thing to say is the initial reason for my foolish topping up of oil in the wrong place was because the oil pressure gauge, which usually sits at around half, suddenly was getting worryingly low... this is something I need to learn as I am only used to motorcycles and oil gauge being low to me meant more oil is needed

[David Mack]

10 hours ago, MtB said:

I think the decompressors have not been properly engaged. With the three linked together like that, tey won't be "that bit stiffer" as Tony suggests but three times as stiff as a single compressor operated in isolation, and a lot of force will be needed to compress the three valve springs all in unison. My gut feeling is the OP is being far too timid with it. Give it a really good shove over. Also, if one cyl is hydraulically locked, opening the decompressor on it might be nigh on impossible due to the fluid pressure in the cylinder.

I agree this is possible. It might be sensible to disconnect that linking bar so the three decompressor levers can be operated independently. Lift each one to the full extent possible. They should all open the same amount, but if one lifts less than the other two that could indicate a problem with the relevant cylinder. Even so you could then try turning the engine over on the handle again to see if you can get any movement in the forwards direction.

[Tony Brooks]

9 minutes ago, David Mack said:

I agree this is possible. It might be sensible to disconnect that linking bar so the three decompressor levers can be operated independently. Lift each one to the full extent possible. They should all open the same amount, but if one lifts less than the other two that could indicate a problem with the relevant cylinder. Even so you could then try turning the engine over on the handle again to see if you can get any movement in the forwards direction.

 

I think this should be talking about each compressor pushing the relevant rocker/valve down by the same amount. The lever may well move through its full travel but the rocker may not. The only exception would be if one decompressor was trying to push the valve open too far so the valve hit the piston at TDC. Then the lever would not move as far as the others.

[magnetman]

I want a picture of the starting handle.

 

 

[MtB]

42 minutes ago, magnetman said:

I want a picture of the starting handle.

 

Why? 

 

What do you suspect?

[magnetman]

Hand starting is hard work if you try to do it with your hand It won't budge an inch but would turn nicely the other way. 

[MtB]

5 minutes ago, magnetman said:

Hand starting is hard work if you try to do it with your hand It won't budge an inch but would turn nicely the other way. 

 

Ah you suspect there is no starting handle! 

 

 

[magnetman]

Only as a joke. 

 

I wonder if it might be a flat battery. 

[ditchcrawler]

I am wondering about topping up with oil (in the wrong place) because the oil pressure fell, Is there any oil in the sump?

[john.k]

How hard is it to take out three injectors?.

[LadyG]

At this time of year River and Canal Rescue, RCR, will do things like engine supervising you servicing the engine, they charge commercial rates. You can phone Stephanie and arrange for a problem to be sorted, at your expense!

3 hours ago, john.k said:

How hard is it to take out three injectors?.

 

10 hours ago, MrBadger said:

Starting work on it again tomorrow as I had to work late today - another thing to say is the initial reason for my foolish topping up of oil in the wrong place was because the oil pressure gauge, which usually sits at around half, suddenly was getting worryingly low... this is something I need to learn as I am only used to motorcycles and oil gauge being low to me meant more oil is needed

You could have joined RCR, but you can still use them, Pay as You Go. Satisfaction reports are variable, I suspect it all depends on getting a good mechanic .

 

3 hours ago, john.k said:

How hard is it to take out three injectors?.

I don't know, I'm still trying to work out how hard can it be to remove screws from my stove flame spreaders when the threads are dry.

9 minutes ago, LadyG said:

At this time of year River and Canal Rescue, RCR, will do things like engine supervising you servicing the engine, they charge commercial rates. You can phone Stephanie and arrange for a problem to be sorted, at your expense!

 

You could have joined RCR, but you can still use them, Pay as You Go. Satisfaction reports are variable, I suspect it all depends on getting a good mechanic .

 

I don't know, I'm still trying to work out how hard can it be to remove screws from my stove flame spreaders when the threads are dry.

Maybe OP could get a tow to the nearest services, or even bow haul if things are getting desperate.

[Richard T]

Another person who may be able to help you is James Terminutter Packer he is based in Coalville phone no.07845277058 Its worth calling him for a chat. He appears to be a very knowledgeable chap. I think you need some professional help before you make too many changes to your engine trying to solve the problem from advice given on the internet. You are getting the advice from some very good people but there is nothing like face to face contact and help.

[magnetman]

19 minutes ago, Richard T said:

Another person who may be able to help you is James Terminutter Packer he is based in Coalville phone no.07845277058 Its worth calling him for a chat. He appears to be a very knowledgeable chap. I think you need some professional help before you make too many changes to your engine trying to solve the problem from advice given on the internet. You are getting the advice from some very good people but there is nothing like face to face contact and help.

 

I'd not be taking anything apart but I can see why people are advising this as the request was for help. 

 

I agree someone who knows what they are looking at on site is the correct way to proceed.

 

[MrBadger]

On 19/09/2023 at 10:08, Tony Brooks said:

 

I don't understand what you mean, if you mean that when you look don the oil fillers the decompressor adjusting screws are vertical with the ball end pushing on a rocker, then yes, they are fully open. If that is the case, then something else is jambing the engine, so the starter is a good first candidate, after that and if loosening the injectors makes no difference, I fear some horrible mechanical damage. Levering the engine over by the flywheel teeth, although time-consuming, will/should show if it really has jammed up because you can lever it in both directions.

UPDATE after removing starter motor the flywheel did turn both ways - put it back on and the engine started to turn on the key rather than just clunk but didn't quite start now it's gone back to the same old clunk. When starting, it sounded like some fluid was moving but it's hard to explain 

[Paul C]

Maybe its just a flat battery or a bad earth

 

ETA if its made it 2 complete rotations, no worries 

Edited September 20 by Paul C

[MrBadger]

Also, before I started turning it with the key the hand crank allowed me to move it about an inch and it turned the flywheel I could hear a clunk when I did it.

20 hours ago, magnetman said:

I want a picture of the starting handle.