Help I put Oil into the wrong place (Air valve)

[bizzard]

If he looks into the oil orifices with a torch whilst working the decompressor levers he should just be able to see if they are working on the exhaust valves. It is only a very small movement to hold open the valves to destroy the compression, so watch carefully.

[MrBadger]

5 minutes ago, magnetman said:

Too many dog hairs on the engine..

 

For starting one would usually tap the solenoid on the side of the starter with a piece of firewood if it is reluctant to engage but it could be wiring or anything else. 

 

Is this engine misbehaving because of you pouring the oil into the air intake  ? Was it perfectly normal before this?

You are quite right, cleaning day was coming!!

It has been behaving absolutely fine until I put the oil in the wrong bit..hit the solenoid? 

[bizzard]

1 minute ago, MrBadger said:

You are quite right, cleaning day was coming!!

It has been behaving absolutely fine until I put the oil in the wrong bit..hit the solenoid? 

You might have jambed the starter motor pinion on the ring gear because the engine had hydraulic'd with a sudden jolt on the oil poured into the air intake. You could try slackening off the starter motors fixing nuts right off and shaking it about and then re tightening. Usually 3 nuts on those. If you can withdraw the starter motor enough to be able to insert a stout screwdrive or prybar through the hole and engage it on the ring gear teeth to try and lever the engine over to prove it moves.

[MrBadger]

2 minutes ago, bizzard said:

You might have jambed the starter motor pinion on the ring gear because the engine had hydraulic'd with a sudden jolt on the oil poured into the air intake. You could try slackening off the starter motors fixing nuts right off and shaking it about and then re tightening. Usually 3 nuts on those. If you can withdraw the starter motor enough to be able to insert a stout screwdrive or prybar through the hole and engage it on the ring gear teeth to try and lever the engine over to prove it moves.

I will give this a go!! Can you kindly point me to which things to undo and where to put the screwdriver please?

[bizzard]

10 minutes ago, MrBadger said:

I will give this a go!! Can you kindly point me to which things to undo and where to put the screwdriver please?

,

That nut on the back casting which looks already loose and the one opposite just behind the solenoid, plus the one underneath for which you will need a long extention and socket to reach it. Once the starter is withdrawn clear it will leave a large hole in which will be seen the flywheel ring gear teeth upon which you can lever.

Edited September 18, 2023 by bizzard

[Tracy D'arth]

The decompressors are the 3 levers that are connected together with the rod, not the oil caps!

I think you are out of your depth with this problem. Is there another boater near you who could maybe help?

 

Where are you? 

 

 

Edited September 18, 2023 by Tracy D'arth

[bizzard]

5 minutes ago, bizzard said:

That nut on the back casting which looks already loose and the one opposite just behind the solenoid, plus the one underneath for which you will need a long extention and socket to reach it. Once the starter is withdrawn clear it will leave a large hole in which will be seen the flywheel ring gear teeth upon which you can lever.

You will probably have to remove the main starter cable from the solenoid first. Make sure you isolate or disconnect the engines start battery first !!!

 

 

[MrBadger]

11 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

The decompressors are the 3 levers that are connected together with the rod, not the oil caps!

I think you are out of your depth with this problem. Is there another boater near you who could maybe help?

 

Where are you? 

 

 

Definitely out of my depth! But definitely no money to pay a marine engineer either. Leicester. 

11 minutes ago, bizzard said:

You will probably have to remove the main starter cable from the solenoid first. Make sure you isolate or disconnect the engines start battery first !!!

 

 

Ok I will get some help with this thanks 

[springy]

7 hours ago, MrBadger said:

It is unofficial but I put my trust in the previous owner who had it for donkeys years and I couldn't find anywhere else other than the injecter caps. I have since found the oil input on the complete otherside as well as gearbox oil which is fine.

This could read "Oil up 1/8" over (?) Max" - perhaps it has the wrong dipstick and the correct oil level is not the max mark but 1/8" above - possibly determined by filling with the specified amount.

 

springy

[magnetman]

I think @bizzard hit the nail on the head about the starter motor pinion being stuck in the flywheel ring gear. 

 

This is not a particularly easy thing to sort out if you don't know what to do. 

 

Taking things apart can lead to negative outcomes. 

 

Starter motor clicking does imply it is stuck. 

 

Hitting it with a piece of firewood could work. Definitely no hammers .

[Tacet]

7 hours ago, magnetman said:

Tracy means these caps. They twist orf anticlockwise. 

 

 

Looking at the end of the hand starting spindle (green arrow) is interesting. 

 

I wonder if someone previously used to do a lot of hand starting and found that a bit of oil in the intake helped with this. 

 

I wonder if someone put a note about the correct oil level on the air inlet because it is near the dipstick.

[MrBadger]

15 minutes ago, magnetman said:

I think @bizzard hit the nail on the head about the starter motor pinion being stuck in the flywheel ring gear. 

 

This is not a particularly easy thing to sort out if you don't know what to do. 

 

Taking things apart can lead to negative outcomes. 

 

Starter motor clicking does imply it is stuck. 

 

Hitting it with a piece of firewood could work. Definitely no hammers .

I am sourcing a long socket to get the last bolt off..when I do take it off, what sort of thing should I be looking for?

 

As soon as I turn the key, the starter motor clunks and nothing happens.

[magnetman]

Good point. 

 

Also these engines are liable to have diesel leaks inside which tops up the lube oil and eventually ends in a runaway engine. The fuel system is behind protective plates which is a good idea for an engine used out in the open for a dumper truck or a water pump.

 

I had exactly this problem on my first narrow boat. The engine (SR2)  went wild in May 1994 near Rugeley. It was crazy. I never checked the oil. The level obviously got past the piston rings due to diesel leakage which also thins the oil and ended up with a self sustaining combustion.

 

It really was mental. 

 

I knew enough to put the decompressors across to stop it. Normal engine stop did nothing. 

 

Injectors sorted by a boatyard afterwards and it was ok after that. 

 

If someone had experienced this they might become a little sensitive about lube oil levels. Maybe the label was saying "if you let the oil go too high all hell breaks loose and it gets really mad". 

 

 

1 minute ago, MrBadger said:

I am sourcing a long socket to get the last bolt off..when I do take it off, what sort of thing should I be looking for?

 

As soon as I turn the key, the starter motor clunks and nothing happens.

 

If you get the starter out the pinion on the end should reset to the normal position by itself then you can refit the starter and it should work. 

 

The point is that the way a starter motor works is that the motor itself needs to get a bit of rotation before engaging the pinion into the ring gear because it does not have enough torque if operated from a standstill. If the pinion is stuck in the ring gear the starter motor can't do anything. 

 

 

 

 

[bizzard]

12 minutes ago, magnetman said:

Good point. 

 

Also these engines are liable to have diesel leaks inside which tops up the lube oil and eventually ends in a runaway engine. The fuel system is behind protective plates which is a good idea for an engine used out in the open for a dumper truck or a water pump.

 

I had exactly this problem on my first narrow boat. The engine (SR2)  went wild in May 1994 near Rugeley. It was crazy. I never checked the oil. The level obviously got past the piston rings due to diesel leakage which also thins the oil and ended up with a self sustaining combustion.

 

It really was mental. 

 

I knew enough to put the decompressors across to stop it. Normal engine stop did nothing. 

 

Injectors sorted by a boatyard afterwards and it was ok after that. 

 

If someone had experienced this they might become a little sensitive about lube oil levels. Maybe the label was saying "if you let the oil go too high all hell breaks loose and it gets really mad". 

 

 

 

If you get the starter out the pinion on the end should reset to the normal position by itself then you can refit the starter and it should work. 

 

The point is that the way a starter motor works is that the motor itself needs to get a bit of rotation before engaging the pinion into the ring gear because it does not have enough torque if operated from a standstill. If the pinion is stuck in the ring gear the starter motor can't do anything. 

 

 

 

 

Nay lad. It's a pre engage starter. The pinion shunts into the ring gear teeth first and then it turns. Done to prevent

ring gear damage as what could happen with the old inertia starters. Remember Ford 105E's ect. Wouldn't mind a bob for every ringear I've renewqed on those and early Cortina's.

[Tony Brooks]

FWIW the starter solenoid has two coils in it, the pull in coil and the hold in coil. If the pinion is jammed in mesh only the hold in coil will try to work so the solenoid contact may not make a good low resistant contact, but would click.

[Richard T]

As you are in the Leicester area I suggest that you get David Sawbridge from Sileby Mill Boatyard out to have a look at your problem. He is very knowledgeable on boats and engines. It will cost you but in the long run it will be money well spent. ontact no is 01509813583 The other Lister specialist is Richard Powell of Primrose Engineering he is based near Kenilworth and what he doesn't know about Listers is not worth knowing. I have hand started Listers for fun and its bloody hard work.

Edited September 18, 2023 by Richard T

[magnetman]

@RLWP is the Richard referred to.

 

 

Presumably 'what he doesn't know about Listers is worth knowing' was a typo and should have said 'not'. 

[Richard T]

10 minutes ago, magnetman said:

@RLWP is the Richard referred to.

 

 

Presumably 'what he doesn't know about Listers is worth knowing' was a typo and should have said 'not'. 

Thanks - post corrected.

[MrBadger]

50 minutes ago, Richard T said:

As you are in the Leicester area I suggest that you get David Sawbridge from Sileby Mill Boatyard out to have a look at your problem. He is very knowledgeable on boats and engines. It will cost you but in the long run it will be money well spent. ontact no is 01509813583 The other Lister specialist is Richard Powell of Primrose Engineering he is based near Kenilworth and what he doesn't know about Listers is not worth knowing. I have hand started Listers for fun and its bloody hard work.

I spoke to David at Sileby recently in relation to an electric issue and he said he wasn't free for a month. I will call tomorrow and see if this is something he might be able to squeeze in. Then again, I would like to figure it out myself. Thinking of removing the rocker covers

[Tony Brooks]

8 hours ago, MrBadger said:

I spoke to David at Sileby recently in relation to an electric issue and he said he wasn't free for a month. I will call tomorrow and see if this is something he might be able to squeeze in. Then again, I would like to figure it out myself. Thinking of removing the rocker covers

 

Before you do that, make sure that you pull the decompressor levers up far enough. A photo you sent suggested to me that you have not. They will get stiff as they push down on the valves, and all three being linked makes them that bit stiffer. If you remove the rocker covers, you will also remove the decompressors and won't get you much further apart from seeing how the decompressors work on the rockers. You may well then need new gaskets.

 

By all means take the starter off, master switch off & start battery negative disconnected, cables off, the three nuts off and grab the body giving a good firm wiggle while you pull it out.  Then, if you look into the hole it was in, you will see the teeth on the flywheel. You can use a large screwdriver or similar between a tooth and the side of the hole as a lever to turn the engine over.

[john.k]

IMHO ,oilbath cleaners on petrol engines ,paper element on diesels.

As the Lister is direct injection,you can remove the injectors and using a length of plastic tube down the hole ,suck out the oil thats in the piston crown bowls ........I would do this before starting ,to avoid any possibility of a hydraulic lock..........Id think the starter has just stopped on the obstruction ,and when the motor is cleared of oil,it will work properly again without being touched.

Edited September 19, 2023 by john.k

[MrBadger]

1 hour ago, john.k said:

IMHO ,oilbath cleaners on petrol engines ,paper element on diesels.

As the Lister is direct injection,you can remove the injectors and using a length of plastic tube down the hole ,suck out the oil thats in the piston crown bowls ........I would do this before starting ,to avoid any possibility of a hydraulic lock..........Id think the starter has just stopped on the obstruction ,and when the motor is cleared of oil,it will work properly again without being touched.

I was hoping this, but as a friend pointed out last night, after adjusting the decompressors when it first happened, we did get a bit more of a noise out of trying to start it on the key, but only once..so not sure if that negates the idea it could be the starter motor or not, but worth a try all the same. Today, I am going to attempt to remove the rocker covers and loosen the injectors. If that does not work then I will remove the starter motor (I am waiting for a socket long enough to get the last bolt anyway) 

 

It is still a mystery to me why the hand turn will not budge at all. 

2 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

Before you do that, make sure that you pull the decompressor levers up far enough. A photo you sent suggested to me that you have not. They will get stiff as they push down on the valves, and all three being linked makes them that bit stiffer. If you remove the rocker covers, you will also remove the decompressors and won't get you much further apart from seeing how the decompressors work on the rockers. You may well then need new gaskets.

 

By all means take the starter off, master switch off & start battery negative disconnected, cables off, the three nuts off and grab the body giving a good firm wiggle while you pull it out.  Then, if you look into the hole it was in, you will see the teeth on the flywheel. You can use a large screwdriver or similar between a tooth and the side of the hole as a lever to turn the engine over.

I have pushed them as far to the left as they will go making the bolts in the openings vertical, can they go further?

[Tony Brooks]

2 minutes ago, MrBadger said:

I was hoping this, but as a friend pointed out last night, after adjusting the decompressors when it first happened, we did get a bit more of a noise out of trying to start it on the key, but only once..so not sure if that negates the idea it could be the starter motor or not, but worth a try all the same. Today, I am going to attempt to remove the rocker covers and loosen the injectors. If that does not work then I will remove the starter motor (I am waiting for a socket long enough to get the last bolt anyway) 

 

It is still a mystery to me why the hand turn will not budge at all. 

I have pushed them as far to the left as they will go making the bolts in the openings vertical, can they go further?

 

I don't understand what you mean, if you mean that when you look don the oil fillers the decompressor adjusting screws are vertical with the ball end pushing on a rocker, then yes, they are fully open. If that is the case, then something else is jambing the engine, so the starter is a good first candidate, after that and if loosening the injectors makes no difference, I fear some horrible mechanical damage. Levering the engine over by the flywheel teeth, although time-consuming, will/should show if it really has jammed up because you can lever it in both directions.

[MrBadger]

21 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

I don't understand what you mean, if you mean that when you look don the oil fillers the decompressor adjusting screws are vertical with the ball end pushing on a rocker, then yes, they are fully open. If that is the case, then something else is jambing the engine, so the starter is a good first candidate, after that and if loosening the injectors makes no difference, I fear some horrible mechanical damage. Levering the engine over by the flywheel teeth, although time-consuming, will/should show if it really has jammed up because you can lever it in both directions.

Yes that is what I mean, I am just not very good with the technical language! Ok that makes sense, a bit confused about how to do what you say with the flywheel though but I'm looking at the manual trying to work it out. 

 

In terms of mechanical damage, when I added the oil, the engine was warm and off. Since I added it, it has never come close to starting, so hoping this means that nothing has had the chance to catastrophically damage. Or is that naive?

[Tony Brooks]

6 minutes ago, MrBadger said:

Yes that is what I mean, I am just not very good with the technical language! Ok that makes sense, a bit confused about how to do what you say with the flywheel though but I'm looking at the manual trying to work it out. 

 

In terms of mechanical damage, when I added the oil, the engine was warm and off. Since I added it, it has never come close to starting, so hoping this means that nothing has had the chance to catastrophically damage. Or is that naive?

 

I think we all hope that nothing catastrophic has happened, as the most likely catastrophic damage would be bent con rods and that won't stop it turning over, anything more is less likely.

 

I think that once the starter is off, what we are saying about levering the engine around will be blindingly clear. End of a large screwdriver or lever between two flywheel teeth, a short distance up put the shaft against the side of the starter hole and use the screwdriver as a lever to turn the flywheel.

 

Edited to add - end of paragraph 1.  Unless a nut or other debris was already in the inlet manifold and it got washed into the cylinder or has jammed under a valve.  If some idiot has over adjusted the decompressors, then the valves hey push down may be preventing the engine turning. Both unlikely though.

Edited September 19, 2023 by Tony Brooks