HVO

[Ian Gardiner]

Hi,

Where can I buy HVO for my narrow boat?

[Mike Hurley]

Google it, loads on there.

[dmr]

Not canalside at present, there are some silly regulations that make it all difficult.

The essence of these are you are not suposed to use it for heating.

You can get it delivered in 20 litre "fuel boxes" (very very expensive) or in 200litre drums (a bit less very expensive).

Fuel boxes  will be white. 200 litre drums can be red or white but you can't use it for heating and should not use the red for propulsion 😀 . You will have to sign various declarations.

Getting access to a tank that can hold 1000litres and getting a tanker delivery is the only "sensible" option but you will still have the red/white issue.

Its good stuff.

[PeterF]

Aqueduct Marina sell it but because of the inconsistent tax regulations it is full tax "white" not "red" HVO nor does it have any green fuel rebate applied so it is around £2.00 per litre.

[Thames Bhaji]

I have been having 20l boxes of red HVO delivered by New Era as the only viable option I could find, and because I wanted to try it. It didn’t seem that much more expensive than other ways of getting HVO to be honest. It’s been great in the engine and pressure jet boiler. 
 

Recently I came across ‘Shell Tapup’ who say they will deliver bulk red HVO into a boat tank. I plan to put it to the test when possible. They have a £100 call out charge, so I’d want both tanks to be damn near empty! 

[dmr]

£2.00 per litre is a good price. Are you sure?

The notion that its 20p/litre more than dino diesel is just not true.

I few weeks ago I was quoted about £1.50 litre for 1000litre of red.

Minimum tanker delivery is 500litre, cheaper for 1000 and a bit cheaper still if you can take 3000.

2 minutes ago, Thames Bhaji said:

I have been having 20l boxes of red HVO delivered by New Era as the only viable option I could find, and because I wanted to try it. It didn’t seem that much more expensive than other ways of getting HVO to be honest. It’s been great in the engine and pressure jet boiler. 
 

Recently I came across ‘Shell Tapup’ who say they will deliver bulk red HVO into a boat tank. I plan to put it to the test when possible. They have a £100 call out charge, so I’d want both tanks to be damn near empty! 

 

Thanks, very interesting.

I have previously had 200litre drums of red from New Era, but last time I spoke they said that due to the recent change of regulations they no longer want to supply any red.

At the time New Era were a fair bit cheaper than Crown.

Can you remember what you paid for the red boxes?

Proper tankers have a big hose and dispense the fuel VERY quickly, Do confirm that Shell Tapup can cope with the small filler on your boat before you shell out that £100. And please report back.

Going just a bit off topic, I would like to know a bit more about standard HVO and GreenD.

New Era supplied GreenD but Crown say theirs in "pure" HVO and I reckon the GreenD made less smoke, but maybe Ive lost a bit of compression in the last year 😀

[Thames Bhaji]

20 minutes ago, dmr said:

Can you remember what you paid for the red boxes?

 

A year ago it was £35 per box (for 24 boxes) inc vat, so around £1.73 per litre. 
 

23 minutes ago, dmr said:

Do confirm that Shell Tapup can cope with the small filler on your boat before you shell out that £100.

They said “…an indicative HVO price is 1.75 per litre plus VAT, our call out fee is usually circa 100 pounds. Our vehicles have a petrol pump style nozzle and a 20m hose so as long we can get within that range we should be ok.” 

[Lady M]

Where can one read these regulations please?

[dmr]

2 hours ago, Thames Bhaji said:

A year ago it was £35 per box (for 24 boxes) inc vat, so around £1.73 per litre. 
 

They said “…an indicative HVO price is 1.75 per litre plus VAT, our call out fee is usually circa 100 pounds. Our vehicles have a petrol pump style nozzle and a 20m hose so as long we can get within that range we should be ok.” 

 

and thinking about this more...you will likely have to have white HVO as Tapup will probably not be registered to collect the duty on propulsion red. 1.75 would be a good price for white HVO

[IanD]

3 hours ago, Thames Bhaji said:

A year ago it was £35 per box (for 24 boxes) inc vat, so around £1.73 per litre. 
 

They said “…an indicative HVO price is 1.75 per litre plus VAT, our call out fee is usually circa 100 pounds. Our vehicles have a petrol pump style nozzle and a 20m hose so as long we can get within that range we should be ok.” 

Does that mean you pay £100 on top of the fuel cost? If so this would make it pretty damn expensive for a narrowboat-sized fuel tank...

 

(asking because I've also been considering HVO...)

Edited September 9, 2023 by IanD

[dmr]

and white has VAT at 20% whilst its only 5% on red.

If you really can get red in fuel boxes that would likely be the better option.

[IanD]

1 minute ago, dmr said:

and white has VAT at 20% whilst its only 5% on red.

If you really can get red in fuel boxes that would likely be the better option.

 

A serious question I can't find the answer for, maybe because it's not common...

 

With a series hybrid boat where the fuel is used for heating and to run a generator for AC power, but propulsion is electric and partly (largely?) powered by solar, what's the red/white legal position?

[Thames Bhaji]

1 hour ago, IanD said:

Does that mean you pay £100 on top of the fuel cost? If so this would make it pretty damn expensive for a narrowboat-sized fuel tank...

Yes. It may well make it too expensive for me although I could take nearly 1000l at a time. I’ll wait to see how the fuel cost compares to boxes when the time comes. I’d pay a bit more for bulk delivery because it would save the bother / waste of processing all the box packaging. 

[MtB]

9 hours ago, Ian Gardiner said:

Hi,

Where can I buy HVO for my narrow boat?

 

I think the canalside pubs should have it on draught. £4 a pint just (like the beer), should give them a decent profit margin.

 

 

 

 

 

[PeterF]

6 hours ago, PeterF said:

Aqueduct Marina sell it but because of the inconsistent tax regulations it is full tax "white" not "red" HVO nor does it have any green fuel rebate applied so it is around £2.00 per litre.

Just found my records, this time last year it was £2.23 / litre, not sure now. Worked well in the engine (Beta 43) with less smoke / smell and no issues with the Webasto or Refleks. I would like to have stayed with it but went back to red diesel this year as the cost difference is to much buying white HVO at that price.

[Momac]

 

 

And in any case I expect most folks with a boat don't want a tanker load nor do they want a 20litre box . 

Something in between in quantity and delivered in a convenient way like a pump at the waterside would be good.

 

At the moment then I expect the answer is more like scarce or no such practical opportunity exists and certainly not at an attractive price.

But that may change in the future .

 

 

 

[MtB]

1 hour ago, MartynG said:

 

Something in between in quantity and delivered in a convenient way like a pump at the waterside would be good.

 

 

I can see that turning into regular "pollution events"!

 

Locations for powered fueling of boats on the towpath would need to be regulated (if it isn't already), I reckon.

 

 

[Ewan123]

It's rather frustrating. I was very happy with it before the prices went way up (we bought a load of boxes just before the war in Ukraine).

 

I also know of at least one fuel boat and one marina that had new tanks installed specifically for HVO, but couldn't get the right supply. There was even a fuel boat being repaired in East London that intended to go 100% HVO.

 

I hope it does improve. At the very least the exhaust was noticeably not smoky and better smelling.

[Momac]

30 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

 

I can see that turning into regular "pollution events"!

 

Locations for powered fueling of boats on the towpath would need to be regulated (if it isn't already), I reckon.

 

 

There are plenty of existing diesel refuelling facilities in marinas  and, I believe,  fuel barges. A change to HVO requires no new equipment unless the hvo is additional to rather than a replacement for diesel.

 

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

42 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

 

I can see that turning into regular "pollution events"!

 

Locations for powered fueling of boats on the towpath would need to be regulated (if it isn't already), I reckon.

 

 

 

I have refuelled from a 'road tanker' on a number of occasions - it is a frightening experience.

 

The tankers have a variety of different diameter nozzles so that is not a problem, the problem comes when they start the pump.

The tankers pump at "a million litres a minute" (slight exageration) and even with 1000+ litre tanks it starts to froth when half full, and, as the froth 'blows back' up the filler there is a noticable amount running down the gunwales before you can turn the tap off.

 

We refuelled by tanker once in the Isle of Man as the yacht club said we needed more than they had to spare. The tanker came down onto the harbour wall and dropped his hose down to us. It was nightmare and were soon surrounded by a 'rainbow'.

 

On the subject of diesel price, I was talking to a boater on Thursday who had just arrived from Holland, up the East Coast, down the Caledonian Canal and Down the West Coast to Anglesey.

I asked him about diesel price and he said they had filled up with 2000 litres (of Red) near Inverness and the price with 60/40 declaration was £1.95 per litre.

[Momac]

24 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

I asked him about diesel price and he said they had filled up with 2000 litres (of Red) near Inverness and the price with 60/40 declaration was £1.95 per litre.

Which is excessive considering white road fuel is about £1.50 odd a litre at present.

 

 

[Ronaldo47]

13 hours ago, Lady M said:

Where can one read these regulations please?

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/using-rebated-fuels-in-vehicles-and-machines-excise-notice-75#overview

[Alan de Enfield]

1 minute ago, MartynG said:

Which is excessive considering white road fuel is about £1.50 odd a litre at present.

 

 

 

Tesco was the cheapest I could find to fill up yesterday at £1.519.

£1.56 / £1.60  most of the way back from Wales today and almost £1.80 on the motoway

 

Prices do seem to be rising over the last few days

[MtB]

Just now, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Tesco was the cheapest I could find to fill up yesterday at £1.519.

£1.56 / £1.60  most of the way back from Wales today and almost £1.80 on the motoway

 

Prices do seem to be rising over the last few days

 

Yes we were within an ace of $90 a barrel a few days ago when I last looked. Not been that high for a while now.

 

Also the £/$ exchange rate affects the price here as much as the price per barrel, and that is, I think, pretty stable at the mo, since that bloody Trussquake woman was finally slung out.

 

[Alan de Enfield]

20 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

Yes we were within an ace of $90 a barrel a few days ago when I last looked. Not been that high for a while now.

 

Also the £/$ exchange rate affects the price here as much as the price per barrel, and that is, I think, pretty stable at the mo, since that bloody Trussquake woman was finally slung out.

 

 

I was working in the Oil industry in the 80's and 90's and remember the doom and gloom when oil dipped to a low of $9 (1998) and $10 (1999) a barrel.