Surveys and Insurance

[truckcab79]

Have my hull survey booked for tomorrow and been reading loads on this and the insurance companies requirements for a full survey for fully comp insurance.   Will call craftinsure in the morning and check their stance on it but just curious as to what people’s experience or knowledge might be regarding insurance companies view on a ‘full’ survey on a boat that’s really just a hull and a panelled but otherwise largely empty interior.  
 

Does stuff just get surveyed as ‘not present’ and the insurance company is fine with that or am I’m going to open a can of worms and have to basically rebuild everything before the insurance would be valid.  In which case I may as well get Third Party for now. Cross my fingers knowing that the hull is good, and then get a full survey further down the line and fully comp it when it’s finished.  
 

I suspect that’s the answer as if say there is no water heater, inverter, plumbing, electrics on it and it were to sink, they’d refer to the survey and say the items weren’t there and weren’t covered anyway.  
 

I know the answer is to call them. Just wondered if anyone had any experience.

 

Unless anyone knows of an insurer that’s happy with fully comping a hull only surveyed old Springer.  

[MtB]

Craftinsure are pretty blasé about narrowboat insurance and I'm sure they'll accept a 'hull only' survey from you. Or put it this way, they accepted a hull only survey on mine several years ago before I decided to go TPI. I suspect they are not that bothered as hardly anyone ever claims on their policies as narrowboats so very rarely sink, and they make a pile out of us.

 

They also have a '30 year old' threshold for requiring a survey rather than the 25 years of most other companies. 

 

They'll probably require any survey recommendations carried out though, just like all the others. 

[truckcab79]

5 hours ago, MtB said:

Craftinsure are pretty blasé about narrowboat insurance and I'm sure they'll accept a 'hull only' survey from you. Or put it this way, they accepted a hull only survey on mine several years ago before I decided to go TPI. I suspect they are not that bothered as hardly anyone ever claims on their policies as narrowboats so very rarely sink, and they make a pile out of us.

 

They also have a '30 year old' threshold for requiring a survey rather than the 25 years of most other companies. 

 

They'll probably require any survey recommendations carried out though, just like all the others. 

Good to know. I’ll give them a call this morning. Having the work done isn’t an issue as the agreement for the sale is that any work required is completed in the sale price.  

[LadyG]

Craftinsure tend to keep costs down by not engaging in negotiation 

Why not Iinsure it for what you want and pay the premium.

In the event of total loss (rare), they will use a surveyor to assess.

 

Edited September 5, 2023 by LadyG

[truckcab79]

Just now, LadyG said:

Craftinsure tend to keep costs down by not engaging in negotiation 

Why not I sure it for what you want and pay the premium.? 

 

Not sure what you mean. I’ve got a hull survey booked today and am happy to pay for fully comp but seems like most companies want a full survey. Seller and surveyor both suggested that hull survey was best option on an old and largely stripped out boat.  

[LadyG]

23 minutes ago, truckcab79 said:

Not sure what you mean. I’ve got a hull survey booked today and am happy to pay for fully comp but seems like most companies want a full survey. Seller and surveyor both suggested that hull survey was best option on an old and largely stripped out boat.  

So , you are about to buy a boat and are getting it surveyed. 

You then have a choice, buy it don't buy it 

If you buy the boat and Craftinsure ask for a survey then you have one.

As long as you have insurance and BSC you can get a Licence.

Of course the surveyor suggested you get the boat surveyed.

The vendor is trying  to sell the boat, and it would seem he has agreed to allow the boat to be surveyed, though its really not in his interests to encourage you to have one, there's nought as queer as folks.

I have an insurance policy with Craftinsure, and have insured it for the value anticipated by the end of the policy rather than the value today.

I do not see any reason for you to try to engage in some sort of negotiation by phone.

Fill in the form when you have agreed the date of sale.

 

Edited September 5, 2023 by LadyG

[truckcab79]

You misunderstood.  I would never have not had a survey.  Surveyor suggested a hull survey was adequate. Now I’m trying to insure it it seems that a full survey would be preferable.  
 

Craft insure on their website state that they need a full survey. 
 

my question was more that is a full survey on a largely empty boat going to cause me more issues than it solves as they state that recommendations should have been completed. Or is it the case that stuff being absent (water heater, gas system etc) is no issue as it can’t be tested as it’s not there.  

Equally.  Someone like GJW insists on full survey and 4mm minimum hull thickness. Given that it’s a springer and likely only started with 4mm it’s unlikely to fulfill that criteria. 
 

So do I just accept it’ll only be TPI until I get it fitted out and then survey it again?  

Edited September 5, 2023 by truckcab79

[LadyG]

So you are saying you have been  unable to get fully comprehensive insurance with Craftinsure unless you have a full survey.

Are you saying that insurance is dependent on you getting the work done on the boat which the survey highlighted.  I think you should read the survey, and identify if these are essential or advisory. 

Or you could try a different company.

Or get the vendor to sort the faults, or find another boat.

 

Edited September 5, 2023 by LadyG

[truckcab79]

It’s being surveyed today.  I’m going to call him and most likely ask for full survey but to my question. Is that going to cause me more issues than it solves?  

[LadyG]

18 minutes ago, truckcab79 said:

It’s being surveyed today.  I’m going to call him and most likely ask for full survey but to my question. Is that going to cause me more issues than it solves?  

So you haven't bought the boat, haven't had a survey report.

If you want to insure fully comp with Craftinsure then you need a full survey. I don't see that as being a problem in itself. 

I would get it fully comp from day 1, value it at what you assess it wiĺl be worth in twelve months.

Edited September 5, 2023 by LadyG

[Mike Hurley]

18 minutes ago, LadyG said:

So you haven't bought the boat, haven't had a survey report.

If you want to insure fully comp with Craftinsure then you need a full survey. I don't see that as being a problem in itself. 

I would get it fully comp from day 1, value it at what you assess it wiĺl be worth in twelve months.

If you read the post he says he is getting a survey today.

[LadyG]

6 minutes ago, Mike Hurley said:

If you read the post he says he is getting a survey today.

Yes.

He may have bought the boat "subject to survey". Which normally means he can back out, but may lose any deposit, or not lose it, depends on agreement, and on vendor.

He could have bought the boat and have it surveyed afterwards, in which case it would be insured without a survey.

 

 

[truckcab79]

Well. Spoken to the surveyor who seems to know what he’s talking about.  Says full survey will be a waste of time as there is nothing to survey but will likely cause an issue with insurer who will want the ‘missing’ stuff resolved probably sooner than I’ll be able. 
 

What he normally does in similar situations is to conduct hull survey as planned and then return to amend to ‘full’ when the fit-out work is completed.  
 

His opinion is that on lower priced boats majority of people he knows and on boats he’s owned personally that they are normally TPI anyway.  
 

I’ll call Craft-insure anyway but I’m happy with that.  

Edited September 5, 2023 by truckcab79

[Mike Adams]

If the boat is in need of a refit you can get a special type of insurance that covers you while you undertake the work. I used one a few years ago but the boat was out of the water and not in use. I think I used GJW. This may be difficult if you are using the boat whilst refitting it. If the boat is empty the valuation will be low and some companies don't like that. I would suggest third party but that may not cover the risks to other boats if you are working on it in a marina nor may an ordinary policy for that matter. Insurance is always a nightmare in my opinion and you only find out the exclusions when you make a claim.

[LadyG]

PS I would not faff about, I'd just fill in the Craftinsure form, fully comp, to include the cost if the new items. I would start off with fully comp, if they accept the contract you are covered, if not you can re survey.

The thing I am not sure of is the cover on personal items, clothes, tablet, phone, easy to steal. But I have a £400 excess, so unless everything was taken out of the boat, I "self insure" these things.

 

[MtB]

1 hour ago, truckcab79 said:

my question was more that is a full survey on a largely empty boat going to cause me more issues than it solves as they state that recommendations should have been completed.

 

Probably not. A survey is a written report on what was seen and found. A 'full survey' on a stripped out boat is going to be hardly any different from a 'hull suvey' stripped out boat, except for probably stating there is no gas, electrical or heating installation to test. 

 

Of more concern is your belief it has a 4mm hull. Craftinsure may well turn it down whatever sort of survey you get because of this. 

 

Having said that I drilled a waste hole in a Springer hull a few years ago and the core that cam out was a good 5mm, and probably 6mm thick although I didn't actually measure it. Point is, not all Springer hulls are 4mm steel.

[LadyG]

Insurance companies are interested in making profits, there must be plenty  of boats that are substandard, but they are still insured, all the boats with a Licence have a BSC and insurance. 

Unless Craftinsure ask to see a survey, how would they know a anything about a particular boat. Do they really demand all steel boats have more than 4mm steel on the hull, something that is impossible to prove. 

[truckcab79]

Well worst case I can have him back early to upgrade it to full if I struggle to insure it.  Third Party on the craftinsure site seems to ask about two questions and then you’re covered as I suppose they don’t care as much if they’re not having to pay up. They do cover for £15k salvage cost if need be. 

  

4 minutes ago, LadyG said:

Insurance companies are interested in making profits, there must be plenty  of boats that are substandard, but they are still insured, all the boats with a Licence have a BSC and insurance. 

Unless Craftinsure ask to see a survey, how would they know an anything about a particular boat. Do they really demand all steel boats have more than 4mm steel on the hull, something that is impossible to prove. 

That’s what the hull survey proves surely?  

34 minutes ago, LadyG said:

PS I would not faff about, I'd just fill in the Craftinsure form, fully comp, to include the cost if the new items. I would start off with fully comp, if they accept the contract you are covered, if not you can re survey.

The thing I am not sure of is the cover on personal items, clothes, tablet, phone, easy to steal. But I have a £400 excess, so unless everything was taken out of the boat, I "self insure" these things.

 

If their T&C’s say you need a full survey you’re not covered in the event of a claim as they’ll be very quick to ask for a look at it then.  

[Cheese]

1 hour ago, Mike Adams said:

If the boat is in need of a refit you can get a special type of insurance that covers you while you undertake the work. [ ...] I would suggest third party but that may not cover the risks to other boats if you are working on it in a marina ...

Eh? Won't third party will always cover risks to other boats? It just won't cover anything that happens to your own boat.

[truckcab79]

Just to update. I spoke to a very sensible chap at CraftInsure.  Explained the situation honestly. No guarantee but it sounds like they’ll be happy to take it on fully comp if they are happy with the hull survey once they’ve seen a copy for themselves.  

1 hour ago, MtB said:

 

Probably not. A survey is a written report on what was seen and found. A 'full survey' on a stripped out boat is going to be hardly any different from a 'hull suvey' stripped out boat, except for probably stating there is no gas, electrical or heating installation to test. 

 

Of more concern is your belief it has a 4mm hull. Craftinsure may well turn it down whatever sort of survey you get because of this. 

 

Having said that I drilled a waste hole in a Springer hull a few years ago and the core that cam out was a good 5mm, and probably 6mm thick although I didn't actually measure it. Point is, not all Springer hulls are 4mm steel.

That would be nice. Seems to be a known ‘fact’ about Springers but I’m always wary of forum and Internet facts. Similarly I’m on a couple of Land Rover forums where everyone will recount that if you buy anything Britpart then it’ll be rubbish and probably kill you. Despite them being the largest supplier by miles, dirt cheap and we all use them. Including LandRover for some parts.  😂

[Tracy D'arth]

Springers were built with thin steel only if they were small, like 24feet,  and designed to be trailable. The larger were 5 or 6mm steel. But its the pit depth that matters now. The insurers want a minimum of 4mm steel remaining in the bottom of the pit. With a Springer of this age you are very lucky if it is anywhere near 4mm left.

[Alan de Enfield]

7 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

Springers were built with thin steel only if they were small, like 24feet,  and designed to be trailable. The larger were 5 or 6mm steel. But its the pit depth that matters now. The insurers want a minimum of 4mm steel remaining in the bottom of the pit. With a Springer of this age you are very lucky if it is anywhere near 4mm left.

 

Particularly when many of the 'Springer Waterbug' only started out with 3.75mm-4.0 mm

[truckcab79]

1 hour ago, Tracy D'arth said:

Springers were built with thin steel only if they were small, like 24feet,  and designed to be trailable. The larger were 5 or 6mm steel. But it’s the pit depth that matters now. The insurers want a minimum of 4mm steel remaining in the bottom of the pit. With a Springer of this age you are very lucky if it is anywhere near 4mm left.

Thank you for that. Not read that before. Everyone gives the impression that they’re  wafer thin from new.  As said before seller will resolve anything on survey so if it’s a case of adding some plating or filling pits to get a pass I’m good with that.  

[LadyG]

3 hours ago, truckcab79 said:

Well worst case I can have him back early to upgrade it to full if I struggle to insure it.  Third Party on the craftinsure site seems to ask about two questions and then you’re covered as I suppose they don’t care as much if they’re not having to pay up. They do cover for £15k salvage cost if need be. 

  

That’s what the hull survey proves surely?  

If their T&C’s say you need a full survey you’re not covered in the event of a claim as they’ll be very quick to ask for a look at it then.  

He's intending to get a full survey, so that should satisfy that policy requirement.

Yes, regarding the steel measurement, the surveyor will test various small areas, that does not guarantee there will be no areas less than 4mm.

[GUMPY]

My springer was 3/16" plate. Caused a surveyor no end of headaches, he couldn't work out how the whole boat had lost 0.22mm all over 😂