Boat Safety Survey coming up...

[Theo]

Recommendations  for a good inspector near to Tardebigge?

 

Nick

[Tonka]

2 minutes ago, Theo said:

Recommendations  for a good inspector near to Tardebigge?

 

Nick

Tom Keeling

[Theo]

1 minute ago, Tonka said:

Tom Keeling

Here?

 

N

[Tonka]

3 minutes ago, Theo said:

Here?

 

N

Yes

[Alan de Enfield]

Good as in he is thorough and ensures everything is safe and compliant?, or

 

Good as in he sits in the cabin has a cup of tea and some choccy biscuits and writes out the 'pass' certificate without looking at the boat?

[Bargebuilder]

25 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Good as in he is thorough and ensures everything is safe and compliant?, or

 

Good as in he sits in the cabin has a cup of tea and some choccy biscuits and writes out the 'pass' certificate without looking at the boat?

It's the latter for me and so far I've been lucky. 

[Sea Dog]

9 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Good as in he is thorough and ensures everything is safe and compliant?

This ^^^^ in my (singular) excellent experience of Tom Keeling, but which was also similar to the experience of others around me at the time a couple of years ago - and two of those were given failures!

I had just changed my gas hose (on age - me being thorough, not cos it was tired) and although it was identical to the old one and met British Standard, it was the wrong British Standard! No problem: Tom had some in his van which he supplied free of charge. He also found the tiniest of pressure drops on the gas test, tracked it down and fixed it, again free of charge.

Thorough check by a thoroughly nice bloke. I'd use him again and wouldn't hesitate to recommend him to others - in fact, I most recently did so this weekend!

9 hours ago, Bargebuilder said:

It's the latter for me and so far I've been lucky. 

Since this is completely the opposite of my experience, did you mean former rather than latter? Or do you need to expand on your own experience for balance?

[Bargebuilder]

1 hour ago, Sea Dog said:

Since this is completely the opposite of my experience, did you mean former rather than latter? Or do you need to expand on your own experience for balance?

My last BSS inspector operated my gas bubble detector, then sat drinking tea whilst asking me questions about my safety systems without looking for himself; useless! 

 

I have two boats, one salty, the other fresh and I am very happy that both are safe, even though only one of them has ever been inspected.

 

Nobody seems to be able to produce any evidence that inland boats requiring BSCs suffer fewer accidents than the much more numerous salty boats that don't.

 

There is plenty of evidence, however, that a lot of people make a lot of money out of the BSS gravy train.

 

[rusty69]

3 minutes ago, Bargebuilder said:

My last BSS inspector operated my gas bubble detector, then sat drinking tea whilst asking me questions about my safety systems without looking for himself; useless! 

 

I have two boats, one salty, the other fresh and I am very happy that both are safe, even though only one of them has ever been inspected.

 

Nobody seems to be able to produce any evidence that inland boats requiring BSCs suffer fewer accidents than the much more numerous salty boats that don't.

 

There is plenty of evidence, however, that a lot of people make a lot of money out of the BSS gravy train.

 

I too have a boat that is not subject to the BSS examination. I suppose there is nothing to stop me having it examined should I so wish, but the danger to a third party should something catastrophic happen is fairly mininimal. 

 

However those boats that frequently inhabit marinas are a different matter. 

[Bargebuilder]

But do boats that have BSCs have a better safety record than ones that don't? 

[Alan de Enfield]

21 minutes ago, Bargebuilder said:

But do boats that have BSCs have a better safety record than ones that don't? 

 

They certainly have a much higher educational level than those that don't.

Although the BSS might encourage better safety.

[ditchcrawler]

22 minutes ago, Bargebuilder said:

But do boats that have BSCs have a better safety record than ones that don't? 

I would say that is a mixed answer. Lots of boats not requiring a BSS will be very well maintained, but some as has been shown with fires and CO deaths have not. How many on the inland waterways would be maintained to a very unsafe level with no BSS?

[Bargebuilder]

10 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

I would say that is a mixed answer. Lots of boats not requiring a BSS will be very well maintained, but some as has been shown with fires and CO deaths have not. How many on the inland waterways would be maintained to a very unsafe level with no BSS?

Agreed, but the same could be said about salty boats.

 

Are there fewer fires and CO deaths on inland boats than on salty boats?

[Momac]

The only parts of the BSS that make any sense are the gas checks and the CO alarm requirement is good. (Why is there no smoke alarm requirement?)

Otherwise not really any value in it.

 

I looked at the bss training costs to become an examiner plus the fees the examiners have to pay. I don't think there is any money in it for the examiner.

Many years ago I used to do house surveys so I  am sure some boats , like some houses, must be horrific.

 

I  don't know  why folks feel they need to be on board during the BSS survey. I used to do house surveys a lot quicker and possibly better with no one to distract me from the job. 

 

 

[MtB]

1 hour ago, Bargebuilder said:

There is plenty of evidence, however, that a lot of people make a lot of money out of the BSS gravy train.

 

Really?

 

I looked closely at the costs involved in getting qualified to be a BSS inspector and decided it wasn't worth the candle for the pitiful income stream that results.

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

25 minutes ago, Bargebuilder said:

Agreed, but the same could be said about salty boats.

 

Are there fewer fires and CO deaths on inland boats than on salty boats?

 

 

I think on the whole, the boating fraternity ethos on 'lumpy water' is very different to that on the canals.

 

There will be extremes in both factions but IMO there is not the 'subsitute for cheap housing' on salt-water, there is not the facilities of "tie up to the towpath" that there is on the canals & there is not the infrastructure of water, elsan emptying and toilets, access to shops etc

Yes there is the ability to anchor up in some deserted bay FoC but that is not sustainable for many folk. Marina moorings are expensive, and could not be used by 'those on a budget' (no different to the canal users). There are swinging moorings, which are cheaper than in a marina but then you need to run a tender to get to shore. A frying drying mooring is not easy to use as there can be no access to and from the boat for many hours per day.

 

Yes, there are salt-water 'project boats' bought and sold but those buying generally seem to have the resources to rebuild 'properly' whilst many canal boat projects (as we so often see on the forum) are folks dreaming of being a boat owner, or getting onto the first rung of the housing ladder and have no idea of the work needed, or the cost, of rebuilding a derelict boat.

 

Generalisations - Yes, but that is how I see it from over 40 years of being on 'both sides' of the divide.

 

 

Edited August 15, 2023 by Alan de Enfield

[Bargebuilder]

7 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

I think on the whole, the boating fraternity ethos on 'lumpy water' is very different to that on the canals.

 

There will be extremes in both factions but IMO there is not the 'subsitute for cheap housing' on salt-water, there is not the facilities of "tie up to the towpath" that there is on the canals & there is not the infrastructure of water, elsan emptying and toilets, access to shops etc

Yes there is the ability to anchor up in some deserted bay FoC but that is not sustainable for many folk. Marina moorings are expensive, and could not be used by 'those on a budget' (no different to the canal users). There are swinging moorings, which are cheaper than in a marina but then you need to run a tender to get to shore. A frying mooring is not easy to use as there can be no access to and from the boat for many hours per day.

 

Yes, there are salt-water 'project boats' bought and sold but those buying generally seem to have the resources to rebuild 'properly' whilst many canal boat projects (as we so often see on the forum) are folks dreaming of being a boat owner, or getting onto the first rung of the housing ladder and have no idea of the work needed, or the cost, of rebuilding a derelict boat.

 

Generalisations - Yes, but that is how I see it from over 40 years of being on 'both sides' of the divide.

 

 

I agree with your generalisations, but for the few that do it, living on a yacht in a coastal marina, on average costs a lot less than living on a narrowboat in an inland marina, if only because of the length difference.

 

If you don't live aboard, you can get a mud berth or a swinging mooring for less than £150 per year and there is no annual licence fee or BSC to pay for either, so it can be a cheap hobby.

 

With tens of thousands of sea boats costing less than 5k and very low running costs possible, there are many owners with minimal budgets, so perhaps 'safety' spending might be neglected. If the BSC was effective, I'd expect considerably more explosions, fires, CO poisonings on the tens of thousands of cheap coastal boats where inspections aren't required. 

[Alan de Enfield]

33 minutes ago, Bargebuilder said:

With tens of thousands of sea boats costing less than 5k

 

I'd also suggest that a GRP 'Sea Boat" costing single figure £'000s will be in far better condition than a similar priced steel NB and, is likely to have fewer 'safety faults'.

[LadyG]

3 hours ago, Bargebuilder said:

My last BSS inspector operated my gas bubble detector, then sat drinking tea whilst asking me questions about my safety systems without looking for himself; useless! 

 

I have two boats, one salty, the other fresh and I am very happy that both are safe, even though only one of them has ever been inspected.

 

Nobody seems to be able to produce any evidence that inland boats requiring BSCs suffer fewer accidents than the much more numerous salty boats that don't.

 

There is plenty of evidence, however, that a lot of people make a lot of money out of the BSS gravy train.

 

I believe it costs an arm an a leg to do the Course, and they already need to have some knowledge, so their needs to be an incentive, but I doubt if anyone would consider this as a lucrative career path .

Please feel free to produce your evidence

Edited August 15, 2023 by LadyG

[Momac]

 

37 minutes ago, LadyG said:

I believe it costs an arm an a leg to do the Course, and they already need to have some knowledge, so their needs to be an incentive, but I doubt if anyone would consider this as a lucrative career path .

 

It really aimed at professional surveyors who already have Professional Indemnity  Insurance and are vat registered  self employed.

You have to do gas training separately. 

[Sea Dog]

4 hours ago, Bargebuilder said:

My last BSS inspector operated my gas bubble detector, then sat drinking tea whilst asking me questions about my safety systems without looking for himself; useless! 

Ah, I see - your earlier post appeared to be in answer to @Alan de Enfield 's question about Tom Keeling being good. Hopefully that's cleared up rather than Tom being given a poor review he didn't deserve.

3 hours ago, MtB said:

 

Really?

 

I looked closely at the costs involved in getting qualified to be a BSS inspector and decided it wasn't worth the candle for the pitiful income stream that results.

 

 

I found the income from marine surveying to be leaning in that direction too, not least due to the high cost of indemnity insurance everyone thinks their "get out" clauses mean they wouldn't need. The more surveys they do, the more the insurance costs... and the liability doesn't stop when they stop trading. 

 

The cost/reward ratio also explains why Gas Safe chit for boats is less common than one might imagine, I expect?

[Bargebuilder]

2 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

I'd also suggest that a GRP 'Sea Boat" costing single figure £'000s will be in far better condition than a similar priced steel NB and, is likely to have fewer 'safety faults'.

The shell of the boat certainly, but surely not the bits of the boat that the boat safety inspector is interested in.

 

Coastal marina's are full of boats with affluent owners, but so are inland marinas, so both are likely to have well maintained boats. Even more coastal boats use swinging moorings or mud berths and are maintained on a tiny budget if at all, similar to many continuous inland cruisers. 

 

Can fresh water boat owners really be less well informed over safety matters or less willing to take responsibility for safety or even less affluent and able to pay for professionals to do the work than owners of coastal boats.

 

 

[Sea Dog]

38 minutes ago, Bargebuilder said:

The shell of the boat certainly, but surely not the bits of the boat that the boat safety inspector is interested in.

 

Coastal marina's are full of boats with affluent owners, but so are inland marinas, so both are likely to have well maintained boats. Even more coastal boats use swinging moorings or mud berths and are maintained on a tiny budget if at all, similar to many continuous inland cruisers. 

 

Can fresh water boat owners really be less well informed over safety matters or less willing to take responsibility for safety or even less affluent and able to pay for professionals to do the work than owners of coastal boats.

 

 

Remember that the BSS is not there to protect boaters from dangers on their craft - it's to protect other boats and the general public from someone mooring a potential hazard nearby. This potential risk to others, rightly or wrongly, is seen as a greater risk on inland waterways than in the marine environment. Only the recently added CO alarm requirement explicitly targets  boat owners' own safety.

[Alan de Enfield]

1 minute ago, Sea Dog said:

Only the recently added CO alarm requirement explicitly targets  boat owners' own safety.

 

Sorry but that is incorrect.

 

There was a big write up on the BSS website after the consultation and before the implementation explaing that the BSS cannot implement safety proceedures that only affect the boat owners' safety. They explained in great detail their justification for implememting the CO alarms.

 

In summary :

You need to have a CO alarm to inform you that a boat moored next to you is emitting CO gas so you have a warning, and can take action.

A nearby boat can be producing CO gas, it can escape thru an open window and move down wind to your boat, in thru an open window and kill you.

 

Far fetched ?

That was their justification.

 

They are making you install one to save you from other boaters emissions, not your own !

[Bargebuilder]

5 minutes ago, Sea Dog said:

Remember that the BSS is not there to protect boaters from dangers on their craft - it's to protect other boats and the general public from someone mooring a potential hazard nearby. This potential risk to others, rightly or wrongly, is seen as a greater risk on inland waterways than in the marine environment. Only the recently added CO alarm requirement explicitly targets  boat owners' own safety.

Indeed, but does it?

 

The only 'control' experiment we have is to compare accidents in tested craft with those which are not tested.