Life jackets, really?

[Jerra]

On 11/08/2023 at 17:31, mrsmelly said:

Its always safer to wear safety equipment and any stats taken from another country are completely irrelevant as the way different countries and their people uses roads, means that the stats are beyond useless. I attended several Road Traffic accidents, people were allowed to have accidents rather than just collisions back in the day  where seat belts undoubtedly saved people from serious injury or death. I only ever went to one in which the seatbelt at the inquest was proven to be the major reason for the girls death, and even then it was due to the way she had worn it ( before inertia reel belts ) 

How about work from the university of Bath (I think that is still in this country):

 

"We then present a new analysis of the original dataset, measuring directly the extent to which drivers changed their behaviour in response to helmet wearing. This analysis confirms that drivers did, overall, get closer when the rider wore a helmet."

 

Having said that personally I never notice whether they are wearing a helmet or not.  I give them all as wifde a berth as possible.

[mrsmelly]

6 minutes ago, Jerra said:

How about work from the university of Bath (I think that is still in this country):

 

"We then present a new analysis of the original dataset, measuring directly the extent to which drivers changed their behaviour in response to helmet wearing. This analysis confirms that drivers did, overall, get closer when the rider wore a helmet."

 

Having said that personally I never notice whether they are wearing a helmet or not.  I give them all as wifde a berth as possible.

I have always left huge room, go onto the opposite side of the road if its clear. When driving instructing I always told pupils to expect cyclists to do the unexpected and to treat them all as though they had mental health problems. After all, would you play hop scotch on the motorway? being on a pedal cycle with our congested roads is madness 

[LadyG]

I think the Highway Code has something to say about distancing.

I found that a flashing light was useful.

It's a good idea to wear high viz, and  assume car drivers are not aware of you.

One of those plastic indicating things sticking out from the rear does push cars out.

Edited August 13, 2023 by LadyG

[Jerra]

42 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

I have always left huge room, go onto the opposite side of the road if its clear. When driving instructing I always told pupils to expect cyclists to do the unexpected and to treat them all as though they had mental health problems. After all, would you play hop scotch on the motorway? being on a pedal cycle with our congested roads is madness 

A teacher at school when were just getting to driving age said "Expect an idiot round every corner, you won't be disappointed".

 

The fact remains it isn't just research in other countries which suggests that for some reason some drivers make the decision that it is safe to drive closer to a cyclist if they are wearing a helmet.

[LadyG]

2 minutes ago, Jerra said:

A teacher at school when were just getting to driving age said "Expect an idiot round every corner, you won't be disappointed".

 

The fact remains it isn't just research in other countries which suggests that for some reason some drivers make the decision that it is safe to drive closer to a cyclist if they are wearing a helmet.

I was driving my motorbike near home when a bloke on the pavement decided to walk out in front of me, apparently it was part of the Driving Test for motorbikes,  I never did sit the test, in my own mind I passed that day.

[mrsmelly]

13 minutes ago, Jerra said:

A teacher at school when were just getting to driving age said "Expect an idiot round every corner, you won't be disappointed".

 

The fact remains it isn't just research in other countries which suggests that for some reason some drivers make the decision that it is safe to drive closer to a cyclist if they are wearing a helmet.

It will depend on how the question is constructed in many cases as to the reply. I have some statistics that prove without question that if everybody was drunk there would be less fatalities on the road. The facts are that 25 percent of fatalities on roads involve alcohol. Either the pedestrian, cyclist or vehicle driver is found to be under the influence of alcohol, there fore 75 percent of fatalities involve or are caused by sober people, this proves everyone should be pissed to greatly reduce fatalities.

[IanD]

1 hour ago, Jerra said:

A teacher at school when were just getting to driving age said "Expect an idiot round every corner, you won't be disappointed".

 

The fact remains it isn't just research in other countries which suggests that for some reason some drivers make the decision that it is safe to drive closer to a cyclist if they are wearing a helmet.

And no amount of posters saying "I always give them *loads* or room, helmet or not" will change the fact that multiple studies in different countries have shown that drivers -- on average! -- give less clearance to cyclists wearing helmets, and that the accident rate is lower among non-helmet-wearers... 😞

 

Yes when accidents happen there is a reduction in head injuries if you wear a helmet, but then in many fatal accidents head injuries are not the cause of death.

 

Even ignoring the reduced cycling use if helmets are made compulsory -- which has a big negative effect on public health, far exceeding the benefits of helmet-wearing -- several studies have concluded that helmet-wearing out of choice doesn't reduce the risk of severe injury or death and may actually increase it, partly due to the fact that drivers take less care with cyclists as a result.

 

If people choose to wear a helmet because it makes them feel safer then that's their choice, but it may well be a misguided one as far as actual -- as opposed to percieved -- safety is concerned.

[Momac]

30 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

 

Yes when accidents happen there is a reduction in head injuries if you wear a helmet, 

 

 

It's good you agree with that. 

Obviously a helmet is not necessarily going to save your life. 

Like nor is a seatbelt , liferaft , life jacket , parachute, harness, hard hat, gloves, safety boots , high viz clothing, safety glasses, fire extinguisher, smoke alarm, bungee jumping cord, vhf radio, PLB, EPIRB, whistle, torch , fllare .............

 

 

 

 

[MtB]

2 hours ago, mrsmelly said:

It will depend on how the question is constructed in many cases as to the reply. I have some statistics that prove without question that if everybody was drunk there would be less fatalities on the road. The facts are that 25 percent of fatalities on roads involve alcohol. Either the pedestrian, cyclist or vehicle driver is found to be under the influence of alcohol, there fore 75 percent of fatalities involve or are caused by sober people, this proves everyone should be pissed to greatly reduce fatalities.

 

A bit like my own philosophy: "Keep death off the roads, drive on the pavement".

 

 

 

 

[Jerra]

1 hour ago, IanD said:

And no amount of posters saying "I always give them *loads* or room, helmet or not" will change the fact that multiple studies in different countries have shown that drivers -- on average! -- give less clearance to cyclists wearing helmets, and that the accident rate is lower among non-helmet-wearers... 😞

 

I assume you managed to miss the fact I was confirming the research from this country for the benefit of those who tried to avoid inconvenient facts by decrying research because it was from another country.

[IanD]

1 hour ago, Jerra said:

I assume you managed to miss the fact I was confirming the research from this country for the benefit of those who tried to avoid inconvenient facts by decrying research because it was from another country.

The comment wasn't really aimed at you... 😉

1 hour ago, MartynG said:

 

It's good you agree with that. 

Obviously a helmet is not necessarily going to save your life. 

Like nor is a seatbelt , liferaft , life jacket , parachute, harness, hard hat, gloves, safety boots , high viz clothing, safety glasses, fire extinguisher, smoke alarm, bungee jumping cord, vhf radio, PLB, EPIRB, whistle, torch , fllare .............

 

You're still completely missing the point -- unlike wearing a bike helmet, none of those safety devices increase the chance of you having an accident in the first place... 😉

[TheBiscuits]

3 minutes ago, IanD said:

unlike wearing a bike helmet, none of those safety devices increase the chance of you having an accident in the first place... 😉

 

Parachute might.

 

Most people don't wear them unless they are intending to jump out of a perfectly good aeroplane ...

[IanD]

2 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

Parachute might.

 

Most people don't wear them unless they are intending to jump out of a perfectly good aeroplane ...

But if you do that without wearing one, the odds of a terminal result are *very* high... 😉

[TheBiscuits]

Just now, IanD said:

But if you do that without wearing one, the odds of a terminal result are *very* high... 😉

 

Altitude dependent, obviously 🤣

[Ianws]

6 minutes ago, IanD said:

The comment wasn't really aimed at you... 😉

You're still completely missing the point -- unlike wearing a bike helmet, none of those safety devices increase the chance of you having an accident in the first place... 😉

I'm sure earlier in this topic (before it went off to focus on cycling) there were quite a few comments that wearing safety gear while boating could make people more complacent and increase the risk of an accident. 

[IanD]

Just now, Ianws said:

I'm sure earlier in this topic (before it went off to focus on cycling) there were quite a few comments that wearing safety gear while boating could make people more complacent and increase the risk of an accident. 

That's also often quoted as a negative side of modern cars with loads of safety devices, encouraging some people to drive stupidly on the principle that the car will help get them out of trouble (antilock brakes etc) as well as protect them in case of an accident.

 

The difference here (cycle helmets) is that the increased danger may be due to the behaviour of other people (drivers) not the cyclist. Though seeing how some cyclists behave... 😉

[Ianws]

5 minutes ago, IanD said:

That's also often quoted as a negative side of modern cars with loads of safety devices, encouraging some people to drive stupidly on the principle that the car will help get them out of trouble (antilock brakes etc) as well as protect them in case of an accident.

 

The difference here (cycle helmets) is that the increased danger may be due to the behaviour of other people (drivers) not the cyclist. Though seeing how some cyclists behave... 😉

I wasn't commenting on whose behaviour was increasing the risk. Just that some people think there might sometimes be an increased risk. 

[Momac]

1 minute ago, IanD said:

 

 

The difference here (cycle helmets) is that the increased danger may be due to the behaviour of other people (drivers) not the cyclist.

I see . It's a 'may be'

 

I wonder how the researchers found reliable evidence that car divers gave helmet wearers less clearance. Or was it simply that helmet wearing cyclists  are involved in more incidents with cars compared to non helmet wearers ?

 

Cyclists  are more inclined to wear helmets in dangerous roads hence greater numbers of accidents between cars and helmet wearers compared to accidents with non helmet wearers .

 

It does not follow that wearing a helmet is less safe.

 

[flogget]

3 hours ago, IanD said:

And no amount of posters saying "I always give them *loads* or room, helmet or not" will change the fact that multiple studies in different countries have shown that drivers -- on average! -- give less clearance to cyclists wearing helmets, and that the accident rate is lower among non-helmet-wearers... 😞

 

Yes when accidents happen there is a reduction in head injuries if you wear a helmet, but then in many fatal accidents head injuries are not the cause of death.

 

Even ignoring the reduced cycling use if helmets are made compulsory -- which has a big negative effect on public health, far exceeding the benefits of helmet-wearing -- several studies have concluded that helmet-wearing out of choice doesn't reduce the risk of severe injury or death and may actually increase it, partly due to the fact that drivers take less care with cyclists as a result.

 

If people choose to wear a helmet because it makes them feel safer then that's their choice, but it may well be a misguided one as far as actual -- as opposed to percieved -- safety is concerned.

 

 to be honest  I thought you were cherry picking your  search results to suit your argument.  a bit of googleiing (if any word exists) shows   quite a few independent global studies back you up. so happy to be wrong about that. 

interestingly the world health organization while they admit the potential risks that you have outlined still recommend the wearing of helmets .

[MtB]

53 minutes ago, flogget said:

interestingly the world health organization while they admit the potential risks that you have outlined still recommend the wearing of helmets .

 

This would be the same WHO that recommended flights from China to the West continued when Covid broke out there? 

 

 

[flogget]

57 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

This would be the same WHO that recommended flights from China to the West continued when Covid broke out there? 

 

 

yup

[IanD]

9 hours ago, MartynG said:

I see . It's a 'may be'

 

I wonder how the researchers found reliable evidence that car divers gave helmet wearers less clearance. Or was it simply that helmet wearing cyclists  are involved in more incidents with cars compared to non helmet wearers ?

 

Cyclists  are more inclined to wear helmets in dangerous roads hence greater numbers of accidents between cars and helmet wearers compared to accidents with non helmet wearers .

 

It does not follow that wearing a helmet is less safe.

 

I said "may be" because I was accurately quoting the report I referenced, instead of stating something as certain when it isn't... 🙂

 

There are two sets of evidence; one from accident statistics, the other from controlled trials of drivers overtaking cyclists (without telling the drivers that's what was being looked for!). Both showed the same result.

 

Taken together with the statistics for numbers of fatal accidents due to head injuries, this suggests that wearing helmets is indeed less safe than not doing so.

 

if you don't want to believe this, then that's your choice 🙂

[Ronaldo47]

Correlation does not necessarily mean causation.  

Edited August 14, 2023 by Ronaldo47
typo

[IanD]

20 minutes ago, Ronaldo47 said:

Correlation does not necessarily mean causation.  

As I've posted many times... 😉

 

The research on passing distances is however clear, car drivers leave less room to helmet wearing cyclists. Its difficult to argue that this can do anything other than increase the accident rate, but by all means have a go if you want to.

 

As posted above, there are plenty of references out there backing up what I posted. If you can find ones which show otherwise, please do so and then these can be commented on too.

 

Or just feel free to disbelieve it anyway, in spite of lack of evidence... 🙂

Edited August 14, 2023 by IanD

[Momac]

https://www.rospa.com/rospaweb/docs/advice-services/road-safety/cyclists/cycle-helmets-factsheet.pdf