Worth watching

[IanD]

1 minute ago, MtB said:

 

 So you clearly didn't read what I actually wrote, then... 😉

 

Where did I claim it didn't happen under the Tories? 

 

Is someone else claiming that perhaps..? Who is it..?

 

 

You came out with all that guff about "unlimited cash" when I'd never said anything of the sort, in fact I'd said just the opposite. The biggest problem has been *what* this government has chosen to spend money on (or not) and how they've chosen to raise it or not) as much as the total amount available.

 

And your "ooh, Labour will have the same problem" is a classic misdirection argument -- it's a thinly disguised way of saying "it wasn't the Tories' fault, Labour would have been the same -- or even worse...".

[David Mack]

1 hour ago, Peanut said:

If CART are short of 20 million pounds then increasing the fees by 45% would fix that.

Ignoring the concept of elasticity. If you put the fees up substantially, some boaters will decide its time to leave, and that will reduce the income. Where the sweet spot is that maximises revenue is difficult to predict, but it could well be lower than 45%.

1 hour ago, Peanut said:

The National Trust raise some 40% of it's income from members, a

But National Trust members get free access to properties, free parking and other benefits for their membership fee. (And anyway some some of that revenue would have been received as entry/parking charges if those people weren't members). But the public can use CRT's assets as walkers, cyclists, naturalists, industrial archaeologists etc. for free, and as anglers and canoeists for a very moderate fee (and I'm sure many canoeists, paddle boarders, anglers and the like pay nothing, as enforcement of such occasional users is impractical). So why would they contribute anything at all? Boaters are the only users who pay directly to CRT, and their numbers (30,000 or so) are much smaller than the NT membership (5.37 million), so the money which can be raised from them is correspondingly much less.

[peterboat]

2 hours ago, IanD said:

A perfect demonstration of what I said...

 

"Same tactic -- often from Tory supporters -- as in many other areas, try and use distraction and redirection to shift the blame away from the real culprits... 😞 "

 

Whether Labour will change anything remains to be seen, but they're certainly much less wedded to privatisation-by-stealth...

20 plus years of boat ownership says you are wrong! All governments have spent the bare necessary to nearly have a functional waterways system. CRT have lead it down the track of no return, paying themselves bonuses for doing badly! BW were bad but CRT are worse! If you thi k a change of government is going to stop the terminal decline of the canal network you are sadly mistaken 

[magnetman]

1 hour ago, David Mack said:

Ignoring the concept of elasticity. If you put the fees up substantially, some boaters will decide its time to leave, and that will reduce the income. 

But the boats will still exist and maybe become cheaper for new boaters to purchase. 

 

Given the way most peoples lives operate (job, house, car, boat if you can afford it etc) it is not beyond the realms of possibility that there are people around who could spend say £30k on a boat rather than £60k and accept higher yearly running costs in the form of expensive licenses. 

 

There is something wrong with the value of secondhand boats. My mum's old 55 ft narrow boat by a boring fabricator (Dave Clarke) was bought (by her) in 1995 when nearly new as a DIY fitout for £33k, she sold it in 2008 for £25k and it is now on the market again for £40k!!! There have been no upgrades to the interior it is basically the same but the boat is now nearly 30 yars old. 

 

Madness given that a boat must be a depreciating asset. 

 

 

This indicates that licence costs are too cheap. 

 

Increase licence costs -a lot- and hit secondhand prices hard and you allow people with incomes but not much capital to get into boating. 

 

 

 

This is what needs to happen.

 

 

[Iain_S]

2 hours ago, MtB said:

 

You're kidding us!

 

Labour's raison d'être is class warfare. The main principle seems to be anyone doing better than 'average' needs to be dragged down and given a good kicking. 

 

 

 

Labour's raison d'etre (can't be bothered finding e circumflex) is that the people generating the wealth should share in it, and that the workers are not serfs to those with existing wealth.

[MtB]

6 minutes ago, Iain_S said:

 

Labour's raison d'etre (can't be bothered finding e circumflex) is that the people generating the wealth should share in it, and that the workers are not serfs to those with existing wealth.

 

Ah yes, so those who can't be arsed with 'generating wealth' don't need to! 

 

 

[IanD]

2 hours ago, peterboat said:

20 plus years of boat ownership says you are wrong! All governments have spent the bare necessary to nearly have a functional waterways system. CRT have lead it down the track of no return, paying themselves bonuses for doing badly! BW were bad but CRT are worse! If you thi k a change of government is going to stop the terminal decline of the canal network you are sadly mistaken 

 

The Tories have been in power since 2010.

 

CART was formed in 2012.

 

The canals have been going downhill -- stoppages, maintenance -- since then, more rapidly so in the last few years. They weren't perfect before that (the 2000s), but were certainly in a better state.

 

Which of these facts do you disagree with?

Edited July 17, 2023 by IanD

[MtB]

25 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

The Tories have been in power since 2010.

 

CART was formed in 2012.

 

The canals have been going downhill -- stoppages, maintenance -- since then, more rapidly so in the last few years. They weren't perfect before that (the 2000s), but were certainly in a better state.

 

Which of these facts do you disagree with?

 

 

Corelation is not causation. Surely you know that?

 

You seem determined to connect this with party politics. I think both Peter and I expect the same problem to persist whatever party is in power. It certainly existed when Labour were in the driving seat.

 

Do you hold that that nice Mr Starmer will shower CRT will adequate funding when he gets into power at the next election? Do say, as if you do, I think you'll be proved wrong! 

[IanD]

5 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

Corelation is not causation. Surely you know that?

 

You seem determined to connect this with party politics. I think both Peter and I expect the same problem to persist whatever party is in power. It certainly existed when Labour were in the driving seat.

 

Do you hold that that nice Mr Starmer will shower CRT will adequate funding when he gets into power at the next election? Do say, as if you do, I think you'll be proved wrong! 

 

The government funding to CART has been essentially static since then, which means falling in real terms. AFAIK it was not as bad as that before 2010 under BW when Labour was in power -- anyone have any actual figures?

 

Meanwhile CARTs costs have been going up.

 

You might say that these facts are unrelated to the deterioration, but that seems unlikely in the extreme -- as I'm sure Mr. Micawber knew very well... 😉

 

I'm not saying that Labour will suddenly massively increase the funding to the canals, any more than they will definitely do the same to things like the NHS and schools and libraries and social services and public transport.

 

However they are ideologically more likely to do this and less in favour of moving things to the private sector which shouldn't be there, including infrastructure of all kinds which benefit the public at large -- and this includes the canals, according to their own analysis.

 

So one can but hope... 😉

Edited July 17, 2023 by IanD

[magnetman]

Mr Parry saying that canals bring billions of pounds to the economy sounds much too much like statistics statistics damn lies and statistics.

 

Politicians do it all the time - blind people with very large sums of money. 

 

Gordon Brown was terrible for it. If he had a pound for every time he said 'billions' he'd probably be a billionaire! 

 

I'm sure if Labour got in ( I think they won't) there would be no change. There are far more things to deal with which actually impact the average person than ditches cut across the land 200+ yars ago. 

 

 

 

 

[Paul C]

We're effectively mid-term, polls are meaningless and its just a distraction to the issue at hand.

[harleyj]

After  watching  David interview Mr Parry which I thought he did an excellent job, David asked how people like us can help and Mr Parry stated that we could find something to do apart from contacting our local member(don't think the member for Collie in Western Australia will help much) in the Keep Canals Alive section on Canal & River Trusts website. As far as I can see people like us, overseas owners of narrowboats and there are many of us are not able to help apart from donations. If the politicians haven't realised how much we contribute to the British economy as do all boat owners, we spend on average 600gbp every week we are here and that is usually between 5 and six months every year and that is without any major repairs or upgrades to our boat.

[peterboat]

2 hours ago, IanD said:

 

The Tories have been in power since 2010.

 

CART was formed in 2012.

 

The canals have been going downhill -- stoppages, maintenance -- since then, more rapidly so in the last few years. They weren't perfect before that (the 2000s), but were certainly in a better state.

 

Which of these facts do you disagree with?

 

2 hours ago, MtB said:

 

 

Corelation is not causation. Surely you know that?

 

You seem determined to connect this with party politics. I think both Peter and I expect the same problem to persist whatever party is in power. It certainly existed when Labour were in the driving seat.

 

Do you hold that that nice Mr Starmer will shower CRT will adequate funding when he gets into power at the next election? Do say, as if you do, I think you'll be proved wrong! 

Ian as BW they were hopeless, and that was labour, nothing is going to change, Mike and I have a long time of boat ownership under both political powers. If CRT were given more money they would no doubt give themselves bigger bonuses for failure buy more property and the waterways would decline even more!

[Peanut]

The canals are a bit like dentistry, now in, "managed neglect."

[IanD]

9 minutes ago, peterboat said:

 

Ian as BW they were hopeless, and that was labour, nothing is going to change, Mike and I have a long time of boat ownership under both political powers. If CRT were given more money they would no doubt give themselves bigger bonuses for failure buy more property and the waterways would decline even more!

 

Are you seriously trying to say that the canals were as bad 15 years ago (BW, Labour) as they are now (CART, Tories)?

 

Because that doesn't stack up with my experience, or anyone else's from what I've seen on CWDF and elsewhere. There are *far* more maintenance problems and stoppages now than there were then, when you could plan a trip or holiday and be pretty confident that it would go ahead as planned -- which is certainly not possible now.

 

To claim otherwise is simply ignoring reality.

 

And your last claim is just frantic anti-CART hyperbole -- why not accuse them of cooking and eating babies while you're at it? It was suggested as a solution to problems in the past... 😉

Edited July 17, 2023 by IanD

[peterboat]

1 minute ago, IanD said:

 

Are you seriously trying to say that the canals were as bad 15 years ago (BW, Labour) as they are now (CART, Tories)?

 

Because that doesn't stack up with my experience, or anyone else's from what I've seen on CWDF and elsewhere. There are *far* more maintenance problems and stoppages now than there were then, when you could plan a trip or holiday and be pretty confident that it would go ahead as planned -- which is certainly not possible now.

 

To claim otherwise is simply ignoring reality...

They were in rag order up here, our electric locks never worked water sensor problems all the time ,paddles not working the list was endless 

[IanD]

3 minutes ago, peterboat said:

They were in rag order up here, our electric locks never worked water sensor problems all the time ,paddles not working the list was endless 

Well that doesn't agree with what pretty much everyone else is saying, which is that there are far more stoppages now, especially in the last few years.

 

Oh yes I forgot, your personal experience -- wearing anti-CART goggles as usual -- always trumps everyone else's. My bad... 😉

Edited July 17, 2023 by IanD

[Alan de Enfield]

31 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

Are you seriously trying to say that the canals were as bad 15 years ago (BW, Labour) as they are now (CART, Tories)?

 

Because that doesn't stack up with my experience, or anyone else's from what I've seen on CWDF and elsewhere. There are *far* more maintenance problems and stoppages now than there were then, when you could plan a trip or holiday and be pretty confident that it would go ahead as planned -- which is certainly not possible now.

 

To claim otherwise is simply ignoring reality.

 

And your last claim is just frantic anti-CART hyperbole -- why not accuse them of cooking and eating babies while you're at it? It was suggested as a solution to problems in the past... 😉

 

 

It would be interesting if you could source a copy of the 1994 report on BWB carried out by the MMC.

I cannot post it due to its size.

 

Some 296 pages mostl;y cristicising BWBs lack of maintenance and financial handling, and citing previous reports which had concluded the same, in effect BWB had operated at a loss every year since its formation, and whilst the intent, and plans, wwre in place the consisetently failed to show any improvement.

 

one extract from the 1982 report :

 

 

 

 

 

 

[IanD]

8 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

It would be interesting if you could source a copy of the 1994 report on BWB carried out by the MMC.

I cannot post it due to its size.

 

Some 296 pages mostl;y cristicising BWBs lack of maintenance and financial handling, and citing previous reports which had concluded the same, in effect BWB had operated at a loss every year since its formation, and whilst the intent, and plans, wwre in place the consisetently failed to show any improvement.

 

one extract from the 1982 report :

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

That's diversion, Alan. Nobody is saying that the canals were a shining example of excellence in BW days, there have always been problems.

 

What I am saying is that the canals (stoppages, failures) are a lot worse now than they were in 2010-2012, before the Tories tried to get them off the books (with -- misguided? -- BW approval) by creating CART and then allowing funding to gradually reduce -- to the state where it's now impossible to have any confidence that a canal will be open (no stoppages) when you want to use it.

 

Do you disagree? Don't forget you're the one who says you're glad to be off the canals because they've been getting much worse in recent years... 😉

Edited July 17, 2023 by IanD

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

It would be interesting if you could source a copy of the 1994 report on BWB carried out by the MMC.

I cannot post it due to its size.

 

Some 296 pages mostl;y cristicising BWBs lack of maintenance and financial handling, and citing previous reports which had concluded the same, in effect BWB had operated at a loss every year since its formation, and whilst the intent, and plans, wwre in place the consisetently failed to show any improvement.

 

one extract from the 1982 report :

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Lets not let evidence get in the way of opinion please.

[magnetman]

The mid and top level management at the CRT have been cooking and eating babies.

 

You heard it here first. I have protected the sauce. 

[Alan de Enfield]

41 minutes ago, IanD said:

That's diversion, Alan. Nobody is saying that the canals were a shining example of excellence in BW days, there have always been problems.

 

Rubbish, it shows that whatever colour of Government BWB / C&RT has been underfunded and the management incapable of resolving the problems.

 

You will not be aware of the condition of the canals 40+ years ago, but I'm sure you can recall that I said that the canals 'improved' during the 80s with the volunteers and re-opening of the canals (rebuilt on a shoe string and no consideration of the ongoing costs to put right the shoddy work done) During the 90s the system (BWB maintenance) started to fall apart and as we hit 2000 'the snowball accelerated down the mountain' in the early 2000s got steadily worse every year and by 2012 and C&RT the snowball had turned into an avalance.

 

You haven't got a clue !

 

 

BW said that they planned to clear the 'critical arrears' (1996/7) when in actual fact by this period that they said the would be ,cleared,, the situation had worsened considerably (to around £100m in arrears)

 

 

 

Edited July 17, 2023 by Alan de Enfield

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Rubbish, it shows that whatever colour of Government BWB / C&RT has been underfunded and the management incapable of resolving the problems.

 

You will not be aware of the condition of the canals 40+ years ago, but I'm sure you can recall that I said that the canals 'improved' during the 80s with the volunteers and re-opening of the canals (rebuilt on a shoe string and no consideration of the ongoing costs to put right the shoddy work done) During the 90s the system (BWB maintenance) started to fall apart and as we hit 2000 'the snowball accelerated down the mountain' in the early 2000s got steadily worse every year and by 2012 and C&RT the snowball had turned into an avalance.

 

You haven't got a clue !

 

 

BW said that they planned to clear the 'critical arrears' when in actual fact by the period they said the would be cleared, the situation ha worsened considerably (to arounf £100m in arrears)

 

 

 

 

Its actually very easy to say 'it wouldnt have been as bad under labour' 'or 'it will get better under labour' because you dont have to support it.

 

Its just opinion, which ironically Mr D regularly poo poos unless you can support it with page upon page of supporting evidence.

[IanD]

Just now, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Rubbish, it shows that whatever colour of Government BWB / C&RT has been underfunded and the management incapable of resolving the problems.

 

You will not be aware of the condition of the canals 40+ years ago, but I'm sure you can recall that I said that the canals 'improved' during the 80s with the volunteers and re-opening of the canals (rebuilt on a shoe string and no consideration of the ongoing costs to put right the shoddy work done) During the 90s the system (BWB maintenance) started to fall apart and as we hit 2000 'the snowball accelerated down the mountain' in the early 2000s got steadily worse every year and by 2012 and C&RT the snowball had turned into an avalance.

 

You haven't got a clue !

 

For heaven's sake, read what I said not what you think/hope I said !!!!

 

I'm perfectly well aware what the canals were like 40 years ago, I remember how decrepit and scruffy they were -- the Rochdale 9 was a trip through Hades if ever there was one, *and* you had to pay for it!

 

They got better with volunteer work and then the reopening of the K&A (I remember walking up Caen Hill during the rebuild), Rochdale and HNC -- I'd say the early 2000s after this was as good as it got. There still wasn't enough BW funding for maintenance (or to reduce the backlog) and so the long slow decline started, which started to accelerate after CART was formed, and more so recently.

 

Your last line is precisely what I've been saying, we're agreeing that since the (underfunded) foundation of CART by the Tories (let's get canals off the books!) things have gone downhill, and more rapidly so in the last few years.

[peterboat]

2 hours ago, M_JG said:

 

Lets not let evidence get in the way of opinion please.

He always downplays personal evidence especially if it doesn't agree with his views, I can remember my first journey back to my moorings from Evesham, we were mob handed so bad locks were easily dealt with. The run down the trent in flood was interesting to say the least, but wasn't hard. Then we got on the big Yorkshire electric locks, calling out lock keepers because we couldn't get the locks to work a right pain, I am sure it was an overtime fiddle at times?