Playground for the Rich

[Bargebuilder]

4 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

I really don't understand why CART dropped the requirement to display the registration number and license, after all there's no ANPR on the canals -- or license plates to recognise, any more...

Is it possible that the CRT would rather those who pay their license fee not know just how many people don't do so? Now, only CRT staff know for sure.

[IanD]

5 minutes ago, Bargebuilder said:

Is it possible that the CRT would rather those who pay their license fee not know just how many people don't do so? Now, only CRT staff know for sure.

 

How? Here's a moored boat with no registration number or name or visible license, and no owner to ask -- how do CRT staff know if it's licensed or not?

 

I'll try and do a quick count of these next time I ride into Paddington, just so nobody accuses me of making this up... 😉

Edited July 18, 2023 by IanD

[Guest]

15 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

 

I really don't understand why CART dropped the requirement to display the registration number and license, after all there's no ANPR on the canals -- or license plates to recognise, any more... 😞

 

Cough.....

 

 

 

Somebody quote me or IanD will remain unaware he is wrong.

 

https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/enjoy-the-waterways/boating/licence-your-boat/faqs-on-boat-licensing-buying-and-selling

Edited July 18, 2023 by M_JG

[Bargebuilder]

2 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

How? Here's a moored boat with no registration number or name or visible license, and no owner to ask -- how do CRT staff know if it's licensed or not?

In that case, even CRT staff won't know, but what percentage of such unnamed boats showing no license or number are likely to actually be licensed?

[IanD]

5 minutes ago, Bargebuilder said:

In that case, even CRT staff won't know, but what percentage of such unnamed boats showing no license or number are likely to actually be licensed?

No idea, and presumably neither do CART -- all they know is there was a boat there without a name or number or visible license, and it might have had a license, or might not.

 

I can't see how they can match one (valid licenses where they haven't found the boat yet) up to the other (unidentifiable boat with or without license) -- can you?

 

Imagine that the DVLA removed the need to display numberplates as well as a tax disc -- how could the police tell whether an anonymous red Ford parked in the street is licensed/insured or not?

Edited July 18, 2023 by IanD

[Bargebuilder]

If even the CRT's possibly conservative estimate of over 2,000 known unlicensed boats only resulted in 100 removals in a year, at what point are they going to go after totally anonymous vessels with no known owner to contact? 

[Guest]

 

Well if they don't enforce the requirement to display a valid licence or at the very least a registration number they should expect that some people will abuse it.

 

At least if the reg. number was on display it's licence status can easily be checked.

1 minute ago, Bargebuilder said:

If even the CRT's possibly conservative estimate of over 2,000 known unlicensed boats only resulted in 100 removals in a year, at what point are they going to go after totally anonymous vessels with no known owner to contact? 

 

This is the issue, they are not proactive enough in enforcing their own rules. Some boaters know this and will take the pea as a result.

 

Either that or the process is simply not fit for purpose and is too expensive to operate making it uneconomical to go after hundreds of boaters.

 

 

[Bargebuilder]

2 minutes ago, M_JG said:

 

Well if they don't enforce the requirement to display a valid licence or at the very least a registration number they should expect that some people will abuse it.

 

At least if the reg. number was on display it's licence status can easily be checked.

How could they enforce a requirement to display a licence or reg no? The only penalty could be removal of such a vessel without contacting it's unknown owner first.

[Guest]

9 minutes ago, IanD said:

Imagine that the DVLA removed the need to display numberplates as well as a tax disc -- how could the police tell whether an anonymous red Ford parked in the street is licensed/insured or not?

 

CRT - haven't removed the need to display registration numbers or in fact licence discs. It's still a requirement. The fact they don't enforce the requirement is an issue.

 

 

 

[IanD]

10 minutes ago, Bargebuilder said:

How could they enforce a requirement to display a licence or reg no? The only penalty could be removal of such a vessel without contacting it's unknown owner first.

 

They used to have such a requirement, because not displaying one is a pretty good indication that the boat isn't licensed -- so they can focus enforcement attention (whatever that is) on that boat.

 

Now if they can't tell which anonymous boats are licensed and which aren't, how do they know which ones to target?

 

BTW I'm fairly sure it was posted on CWDF that CART no longer required/enforced display of reg. no and license but their FAQ says otherwise -- which is actually the case?

 

 

Edited July 18, 2023 by IanD

[Guest]

15 minutes ago, Bargebuilder said:

How could they enforce a requirement to display a licence or reg no? The only penalty could be removal of such a vessel without contacting it's unknown owner first.

 

How do the DVLA do it?? Do they worry about contacting owners before seizing and removing unattended/abandoned/untaxed vehicles?

 

The fact that some people know that CRT will jump through a million hoops before seizing a boat leads people to take the pee. It would only need a few boats to be lifted and re/sold and/or scrapped for the word to get about.

 

 

12 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

 

BTW I'm fairly sure it was posted on CWDF that CART no longer required/enforced display of reg. no/license but their FAQ says otherwise -- which is actually the case?

 

 

 

It really is quite simple,

 

They dropped it (some time after we sold our boat in 2015 from memory), and in the intervening period it has been re-instated.

Edited July 18, 2023 by M_JG

[Tonka]

17 minutes ago, IanD said:

No idea, and presumably neither do CART -- all they know is there was a boat there without a name or number or visible license, and it might have had a license, or might not.

 

I can't see how they can match one (valid licenses where they haven't found the boat yet) up to the other (unidentifiable boat with or without license) -- can you?

 

Imagine that the DVLA removed the need to display numberplates as well as a tax disc -- how could the police tell whether an anonymous red Ford parked in the street is licensed/insured or not?

By the vin number displayed in most windscreens at the bottom

[IanD]

5 minutes ago, Tonka said:

By the vin number displayed in most windscreens at the bottom

And on a boat...?

 

(you do understand the use of simile to make a point, don't you?)

Edited July 18, 2023 by IanD

[Tonka]

3 minutes ago, IanD said:

And on a boat...?

 

(you do understand the use of simile to make a point, don't you?)

The HIN number on new boats has to be displayed but I know what you mean about older boats.

 

[IanD]

13 minutes ago, Tonka said:

The HIN number on new boats has to be displayed but I know what you mean about older boats.

 

I'd expect *all* the anonymous boats to be "older", certainly looking at the ones round here...

 

If a boat does have a HIN that that would help CART identify it -- unless it's "older" or moored with the port side to the towpath, obviously... 😉

Edited July 18, 2023 by IanD

[Higgs]

13 minutes ago, Tonka said:

The HIN number on new boats has to be displayed but I know what you mean about older boats.

 

 

They won't necessarily have one. Mine doesn't have one. A 1983 boat. Not sure when the requirement came in. 

 

[Tonka]

12 minutes ago, Higgs said:

 

They won't necessarily have one. Mine doesn't have one. A 1983 boat. Not sure when the requirement came in. 

 

My 1994 hull does not have one, which is why I stated it was on newer boats

[Higgs]

Just now, Tonka said:

My 1994 hull does not have one, which is why I stated it was on newer boats

 

OK. Missed that.

 

 

[ditchcrawler]

2 hours ago, MrBean said:

If you are referring to my post, at no point does it say unlicensed boats. I very carefully refer to boats not displaying a valid licence, which I believe remains a requirement. If this is true, one may infer these boats are not licenced but I suspect that would be highly inaccurate. 
I’m unteuigyed why so many boats choose not to display a valid licence, if they have paid up.

It is a requirement to show it but CRT have said numerus times unofficially that its not needed, the licence checkers don't look at it, CRT  no longer send them out, when you print your own they are normally illegible after two moths of condensation and CRT have even closed down the facility for the general public to check and report unlicensed boats. A bit like overstaying, CRT know who and where

2 hours ago, IanD said:

 

How does an electronic system work with an unidentifiable boat/owner? No name, no license or number, no owner on board when the checker calls...

 

I really don't understand why CART dropped the requirement to display the registration number and license, after all there's no ANPR on the canals -- or license plates to recognise, any more... 😞

As far as I know they haven't dropped the requirement for a number to be displayed, displaying a licence is only any use to the curtain twitches

 

[Hudds Lad]

5 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

when you print your own they are normally illegible after two moths of condensation

Not if you laminate them in UV resistant pouches  

Oh, and replace the logo with a proper hi-res version.

 

sad? moi?  

[ditchcrawler]

Vehicle excise duty evasion statistics: 2021 - GOV.UK (www.gov.uk)

 

[IanD]

12 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

It is a requirement to show it but CRT have said numerus times unofficially that its not needed, the licence checkers don't look at it, CRT  no longer send them out, when you print your own they are normally illegible after two moths of condensation and CRT have even closed down the facility for the general public to check and report unlicensed boats. A bit like overstaying, CRT know who and where

As far as I know they haven't dropped the requirement for a number to be displayed, displaying a licence is only any use to the curtain twitches

 

 

Not disagreeing with your last point, but I'm pretty sure there are boats round here with no license *or* name (both optional) *or* number (required) displayed -- and probably no HIN either. Don't see how CART can identify them (or the owner) in that case...

Edited July 18, 2023 by IanD

[Jon57]

1 hour ago, IanD said:

I'd expect *all* the anonymous boats to be "older", certainly looking at the ones round here...

 

If a boat does have a HIN that that would help CART identify it -- unless it's "older" or moored with the port side to the towpath, obviously... 😉

You wouldn't see it for the overgrown vegetation on some moorings. 

[Guest]

21 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

 

As far as I know they haven't dropped the requirement for a number to be displayed, displaying a licence is only any use to the curtain twitches

 

 

I linked earlier to the current requirement to display but I do recall they did actually remove the requirement a year or so after we sold our boat in 2015.

 

But it was subsequently re-instated.

 

 

Edited July 18, 2023 by M_JG

[MrBean]

One way to ease enforcement burden would be to shift onus onto the owner of the mooring. Unfortunately this would likely encourage even more CM’ing. A difficult issue to tackle.