Similarities between the Chesterfield canal and the Pocklington canal (and problems with)

[Justin Smith]

I am a member of the Chesterfield Canal Trust and am obviously very keen to see it reopened.

Just yesterday I went for a walk from Canal Head on the Pocklington canal and would also very much like to see that reopened all the way to the end as well, it was quite depressing seeing all those miles of unnavigable canal.....

However, it did occur to me they are quite similar in many ways, one of the most significant is that both can only be accessed from the main system via tidal waterways. Straight away that would put quite a lot of boaters off, but, more importantly it would preclude their use by hire craft. The latter are vital for the canals, not least because, in terms of boats actually moving, they probably constitute the majority. And what canals need is boats using them, not least to keep the weeds down !

I know the Chesterfield canal does have a couple of boats for hire on it, and if they are long enough self contained waterways (like the Brecon) can support hire fleets, but how would that work with the Pocklington canal ?

Edited July 10, 2023 by Justin Smith

[Jen-in-Wellies]

The Pocklington is accessed via the River Derwent, theoretically navigable for 22 miles to Stamford Bridge, plus a short section of the Wharf can supposedly be navigated. That gives enough for a long weekend to see all of it, without going on to the tidal stuff. I don't know what getting to Stamford Bridge is actually like, or even practical at the moment. Still shorter than the connected Chesterfield, but something people might want to do as a hire.

For the Chesterfield the big thing would be if/when the River Rother link is ever made. This would allow narrowboats to connect to Yorkshire waterways directly with no tidal river and with the whole canal open again a (partly tidal) cruising ring too.

[noddyboater]

23 minutes ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

 

For the Chesterfield the big thing would be if/when the River Rother link is ever made. This would allow narrowboats to connect to Yorkshire waterways directly with no tidal river and with the whole canal open again a (partly tidal) cruising ring too.

Would it really though?

For boaters already based in the area I'm sure it would, but the idea of cruising to Rotherham for your holiday is as alien as the tidal Trent to a lot of other people. 

[Sea Dog]

22 minutes ago, noddyboater said:

Would it really though?

For boaters already based in the area I'm sure it would, but the idea of cruising to Rotherham for your holiday is as alien as the tidal Trent to a lot of other people. 

Oh I don't know - there are plenty of places little better than Rotherham many folk happily cruise through as part of their narrowboat holiday.

[Jen-in-Wellies]

1 hour ago, noddyboater said:

Would it really though?

For boaters already based in the area I'm sure it would, but the idea of cruising to Rotherham for your holiday is as alien as the tidal Trent to a lot of other people. 

It would be mostly Yorkshire based boaters for sure. For any one else to go there involves either a tidal Trent trip, or crossing the Pennines. The later an increasingly tricky feat, what with stoppages and water shortages.

I'll second @Sea Dog. Plenty of places on the more travelled parts of the system that are worse than Rotherham. Outside the towns, there is some very pretty and dramatic countryside the Chesterfield and S Yorkshire waterways go through.

[Justin Smith]

2 hours ago, noddyboater said:

Would it really though?

For boaters already based in the area I'm sure it would, but the idea of cruising to Rotherham for your holiday is as alien as the tidal Trent to a lot of other people. 

There are a lot of boaters who want to "do the system", or as much of it as is relatively practical.

We only hire (once a year usually) but want to do as much of the system as we can, thus we hire in different areas each time.

As Jen said there are some lovely parts of the Chesterfield canal and even the Sheffield & South Yorkshire Navigations.

 

2 hours ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

The Pocklington is accessed via the River Derwent, theoretically navigable for 22 miles to Stamford Bridge, plus a short section of the Wharf can supposedly be navigated. That gives enough for a long weekend to see all of it, without going on to the tidal stuff. I don't know what getting to Stamford Bridge is actually like, or even practical at the moment. Still shorter than the connected Chesterfield, but something people might want to do as a hire.

For the Chesterfield the big thing would be if/when the River Rother link is ever made. This would allow narrowboats to connect to Yorkshire waterways directly with no tidal river and with the whole canal open again a (partly tidal) cruising ring too.

I have heard them discussing the Rother link, but fear it might be a bit of a pipe dream.....

Edited July 10, 2023 by Justin Smith

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

It would be mostly Yorkshire based boaters for sure. For any one else to go there involves either a tidal Trent trip, or crossing the Pennines. The later an increasingly tricky feat, what with stoppages and water shortages.

I'll second @Sea Dog. Plenty of places on the more travelled parts of the system that are worse than Rotherham. Outside the towns, there is some very pretty and dramatic countryside the Chesterfield and S Yorkshire waterways go through.

 

Indeed, its grim up North (or rather South Yorkshire).

 

 

 

[magpie patrick]

The drivers for canals being "worthwhile" are many and varied, over the course of the last sixty years they have been driven variously by hire boating, by "extended cruising" of early retirees, by waterside development. However there has always been a fairly large element of boats that don't go very far. The biggest difficulty is inertia - to put it bluntly, some waterways are popular because they are, erm, popular. There is no logical reason as to why the Chelmer and Blackwater should have far more boats on it than the Bridgwater and Taunton does (recent developments on the latter not withstanding) but it does, and because markets develop over decades that will remain the case. 

 

The isolated length of the Chesterfield is an exception - a few years ago I was involved in a water supply study for the canal at Tapton, and was surprised by how many boat movements needed to be provided for given there are only two boats on the canal. They're trip boats, and every summer Saturday and Sunday they go through the locks a dozen times, meaning the locks see more use than many of the quieter CRT ones. It helps that these locks are near centres of population so the boats are popular. It also helps that the Chesterfield bods haven't been actively discouraged from using the canal whereas I think on the Pocklington there has been a fair amount of pressure from environmentalists.

[Jen-in-Wellies]

1 hour ago, Justin Smith said:

I have heard them discussing the Rother link, but fear it might be a bit of a pipe dream.....

Not just the connection, which isn't that long or high, but making the Rother navigable down to the Don/SSYN. There are quite a few weirs on there and flood control sluices, which would need locks and some of the sections look very shallow. So level alteration and changes to the flood protection system would come in for a lot of money. Then you get on to the environmental stuff, both disturbing the wildlife that now lives there and disturbing a couple of centuries of industrial nastiness in the silt on the bottom.

[Justin Smith]

19 hours ago, magpie patrick said:

It also helps that the Chesterfield bods haven't been actively discouraged from using the canal whereas I think on the Pocklington there has been a fair amount of pressure from environmentalists.

What exactly do you mean by this ?

Are you saying "environmentalists" do not want boats on canals ? Or the Pocklington canal reopened ?

 

"Environmentalists" can be a bit of  a strange breed though. Some of them area bit extreme / blinkered, and I speak as someone who has been paying a DD to Rainforest Concern (who basically buy up tracts of the Amazon jungle) for about 25 years....

[Guest]

10 minutes ago, Justin Smith said:

What exactly do you mean by this ?

Are you saying "environmentalists" do not want boats on canals ? Or the Pocklington canal reopened ?

 

"Environmentalists" can be a bit of  a strange breed though. Some of them area bit extreme / blinkered, and I speak as someone who has been paying a DD to Rainforest Concern (who basically buy up tracts of the Amazon jungle) for about 25 years....

 

There is a school of thought that suggests that currently abandoned canals should be allowed to remain unrestored as they harbour lots of wild life which would be disturbed/displaced if restored fully for boating.

 

I can sympathise with that view TBH especially as CRT can ill afford to take on responsibility for the upkeep and maintenance of what they have now and will struggle even more given the recent funding announcement.

 

They are not really in a position to support new sections when talking about the possibility of closing existing bits.

 

 

Edited July 11, 2023 by M_JG

[Ronaldo47]

A some decades ago, the Chelmer & Blackwater did have have a boat company offering 3 or 4 day hires with 4 berth boats, but it only lasted for a couple of years. 

[Iain_S]

4 hours ago, Justin Smith said:

What exactly do you mean by this ?

Are you saying "environmentalists" do not want boats on canals ? Or the Pocklington canal reopened ?

 

"Environmentalists" can be a bit of  a strange breed though. Some of them area bit extreme / blinkered, and I speak as someone who has been paying a DD to Rainforest Concern (who basically buy up tracts of the Amazon jungle) for about 25 years....

When we visited the Pocklington Canal (quite a few years ago, come to think of it), there was a restored lock at the top end of the navigational bit, but we were told that above the lock, restoration couldn't proceed as it was a SSSI. The contrast between the "SSSI" and the navigation was startling: the navigation had clear water and abundant fish, birds, etc, while above the lock was reeds bank to bank, with a few discarded oil drums and other rubbish on top.

4 hours ago, M_JG said:

 

There is a school of thought that suggests that currently abandoned canals should be allowed to remain unrestored as they harbour lots of wild life which would be disturbed/displaced if restored fully for boating.

 

I can sympathise with that view TBH especially as CRT can ill afford to take on responsibility for the upkeep and maintenance of what they have now and will struggle even more given the recent funding announcement.

 

They are not really in a position to support new sections when talking about the possibility of closing existing bits.

 

 

Problem is maintenance of the abandoned state! If left, they are likely to dry out, losing the habitat.

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, Iain_S said:

When we visited the Pocklington Canal (quite a few years ago, come to think of it), there was a restored lock at the top end of the navigational bit, but we were told that above the lock, restoration couldn't proceed as it was a SSSI. The contrast between the "SSSI" and the navigation was startling: the navigation had clear water and abundant fish, birds, etc, while above the lock was reeds bank to bank, with a few discarded oil drums and other rubbish on top.

Problem is maintenance of the abandoned state! If left, they are likely to dry out, losing the habitat.

 

Possibly true but the last time I walked the Pocklington, admittedly a while ago, long sections were still 'in water'.

 

 

[magpie patrick]

18 hours ago, Justin Smith said:

What exactly do you mean by this ?

Are you saying "environmentalists" do not want boats on canals ? Or the Pocklington canal reopened ?

 

"Environmentalists" can be a bit of  a strange breed though. Some of them area bit extreme / blinkered, and I speak as someone who has been paying a DD to Rainforest Concern (who basically buy up tracts of the Amazon jungle) for about 25 years....

 

In many ways I am also an environmentalist - I'm a member of the Wetland & Wildfowl Trust and of the Somerset Wildlife Trust, and in promoting canal restoration I always look for the options that offer increased biodiversity. What I'm saying on the Pocklington is that Natural England and YWT have, in the past, been obstructive of restoration and of actually using the canal. 

[Alway Swilby]

On 10/07/2023 at 11:37, Jen-in-Wellies said:

The Pocklington is accessed via the River Derwent, theoretically navigable for 22 miles to Stamford Bridge, plus a short section of the Wharf can supposedly be navigated. That gives enough for a long weekend to see all of it, without going on to the tidal stuff. I don't know what getting to Stamford Bridge is actually like, or even practical at the moment. Still shorter than the connected Chesterfield, but something people might want to do as a hire.

For the Chesterfield the big thing would be if/when the River Rother link is ever made. This would allow narrowboats to connect to Yorkshire waterways directly with no tidal river and with the whole canal open again a (partly tidal) cruising ring too.

Sutton Lock (sometimes known as Elvington Lock) has been closed for a few years now and is unlikely to open again. The bottom mitre gates are rotten and need replacing. But those gates are owned by the Yorkshire Wildlife Trust and they don't want boats there at all so are unlikley to replace them. The top guilotine gate also requires attention but I think is owned by the EA. The EA are not the navigation authority (I don't think there is one) so they are not inclined to spend money on them unless required to for flood protection. Although the lock is not officially closed I doubt it will ever be able to be used again.

 

[Jen-in-Wellies]

1 hour ago, Alway Swilby said:

Sutton Lock (sometimes known as Elvington Lock) has been closed for a few years now and is unlikely to open again. The bottom mitre gates are rotten and need replacing. But those gates are owned by the Yorkshire Wildlife Trust and they don't want boats there at all so are unlikley to replace them. The top guilotine gate also requires attention but I think is owned by the EA. The EA are not the navigation authority (I don't think there is one) so they are not inclined to spend money on them unless required to for flood protection. Although the lock is not officially closed I doubt it will ever be able to be used again.

 

Thanks for the detail. I had a vague memory of their being navigation problems that were likely to be long term when I posted, but couldn't recall the exactly where and why.

[oboat]

On 10/07/2023 at 11:06, Justin Smith said:

I am a member of the Chesterfield Canal Trust and am obviously very keen to see it reopened.

Just yesterday I went for a walk from Canal Head on the Pocklington canal and would also very much like to see that reopened all the way to the end as well, it was quite depressing seeing all those miles of unnavigable canal.....

However, it did occur to me they are quite similar in many ways, one of the most significant is that both can only be accessed from the main system via tidal waterways. Straight away that would put quite a lot of boaters off, but, more importantly it would preclude their use by hire craft. The latter are vital for the canals, not least because, in terms of boats actually moving, they probably constitute the majority. And what canals need is boats using them, not least to keep the weeds down !

I know the Chesterfield canal does have a couple of boats for hire on it, and if they are long enough self contained waterways (like the Brecon) can support hire fleets, but how would that work with the Pocklington canal ?

The Pocklington (PC) comparison is very interesting.
 Martins Canal Viability Table gives: 

The PC a viability score of 125 (less than 100 under threat. Over 150 good prospects)

and gives a length of 27 miles with a potential of 32 miles of navigation.
The Chesterfield (CC) has a score of 166 (Over 200 of regional significance) and gives a length of 31 miles.
The principal problem with the PC is that it has no boating access to its principal public waterside focal point and its potential principal destination. The park at the HoN known as Canal Head.

The CC has a public basin, tidal lock & a focal point (20 points in total) all at its start of navigation.
The CC has an active parish council at this basin which promote the basin and area in general.

The PC Canal Head open space is manicured but boat wise largely neglected.

The CC has had three extremally active boat clubs (30 points) for a long time.
The PC has had an active boat group (10 points) but has also had a related political problem (-5 points). 
For the PC this has hindered the development of the type of work the CC boat clubs did before the establishment of the CCS who have been continuing that outstanding work.

The CC has several Destinations the river lock basin and the HoN (top pound) are just two.
The PC has a low profile obscure and isolated mooring basin but no real destinations of interest, yet it has several potential destinations the canal Head being just one.
The Battle of Stamford Bridge is probably one of the most significant locations in English history yet it hardly rates a mention in relation to the waterway.

I could go on but essentially much comes down to personalities both local and national and the ability of the relevant influencer group(s) to identify navigation promotion opportunities and to develop them.
The Chesterfield has been very fortunate in this regard.

On a personal note;
 On the Chesterfield I would love to see the opening up of the first section of the, open tunnel section, dug out.
Both to progress general restoration and to encourage more access to the existing top pound which at present is under utilised as it is seen by many as having no significant Destination.

On the Pocklington I feel it to be essential that the existing trip boat operation be relocated to the opened up basin at Canal Head which would provide much needed public exposure to the waterway and the trip boat operation.
This would also help keep the waterway clear and provide the local group with funds to develop both itself and the waterway.

Note:
The above is based on investigations pre CV19 so some items may have progressed.
My apologies if so.

 

[Tony Brooks]

On 11/07/2023 at 13:44, Ronaldo47 said:

A some decades ago, the Chelmer & Blackwater did have have a boat company offering 3 or 4 day hires with 4 berth boats, but it only lasted for a couple of years. 

 

Having hired there, I think that was a combination of unsuitable boats and some very difficult locks. The only way the navigation authority (pre IWA) could get at least one set of gates to seal was to open them and then pull the paddles to slam them shut.  The boats were very Springer like, essentially one cabin with a narrow bunk each side at the front and the same at the back. Far from comfortable. That is from memory.

[Justin Smith]

6 hours ago, oboat said:

Both to progress general restoration [of the Pocklington canal] and to encourage more access to the existing top pound which at present is under utilised as it is seen by many as having no significant Destination.

Maybe it's my train spotting instinct from being a boy (wanting to cross off another item on a list), but just to get to the end of a section of canal I have not done before is enough of a motivation for me!

I suspect many other boaters feel the same ?

Edited July 15, 2023 by Justin Smith

[oboat]

On 11/07/2023 at 11:31, Justin Smith said:

What exactly do you mean by this ?

Are you saying "environmentalists" do not want boats on canals ? Or the Pocklington canal reopened ?

 

"Environmentalists" can be a bit of  a strange breed though. Some of them area bit extreme / blinkered, and I speak as someone who has been paying a DD to Rainforest Concern (who basically buy up tracts of the Amazon jungle) for about 25 years....

The environmental problem on the Pocklington was that an individual with a strong connection with a university had managed to get into a position of authority within the restoration group and used that position to piss off the boat club members who were the driving force and until then had been doing/funding restoration work as on the CC. Another parallel.
The Uni was using the canal its own private environmental teaching lab (field trips one or two times a year).
When a uni gets hold of something it never lets go.
I understand that this individual also got a hold on the trip boat operation.
Which was then not run to raise funds for restoration as on the CC.
Going back to my viability post and this mention of the Chelmer & Blackwater, on the C&B the tidal lock acts as a positive influence, as do its excellent administration, numerous points of interest, several destinations and slipways all as the CC.
All of which combine to give the C&B a VS of 133 which for a navigation given as only 14 miles is pretty good.

The combination of those elements plus the size of the local population are what drive the success of both the CC and the C&B.
The lack of which is also what killed the infant hire boat trade on the disconnected Montgomery 13 miles VS given as 45 (Unviable for sustained navigation, destination only).

 

  

2 hours ago, Justin Smith said:

Maybe it's my train spotting instinct from being a boy (wanting to cross off another item on a list), but just to get to the end of a section of canal I have not done before is enough of a motivation for me!

I suspect many other boaters feel the same ?

Afraid I have also suffer from both afflictions. My last Silver Propeller Challenge Point last week.

[Justin Smith]

On 15/07/2023 at 12:02, oboat said:

>>"Train spotting instinct" <<

 

Afraid I have also suffer from both afflictions. My last Silver Propeller Challenge Point last week.

Where is that ?

 

These are ours, all done in hire boats (apart from 1, on a dining boat ! :

 

Tinsley Canal Basin,

Coventry Basin,

Five Locks Basin (Cwmbran - Brecon canal)

Brograve Mill (The Broads). 
Snareston,

Preston Basin and Tewitfield (Lancaster canal)

 

 

[oboat]

2 hours ago, Justin Smith said:

Where is that ?

 

These are ours, all done in hire boats (apart from 1, on a dining boat ! :

 

Tinsley Canal Basin,

Coventry Basin,

Five Locks Basin (Cwmbran - Brecon canal)

Brograve Mill (The Broads). 
Snareston,

Preston Basin and Tewitfield (Lancaster canal)

 

 

Thames Head Start of  the T&S Canal the entrance being directly behind me under the trees.

[IanM]

5 hours ago, oboat said:

Thames Head Start of  the T&S Canal the entrance being directly behind me under the trees.

That’s not Thames Head by the way. Thames Head is much further upstream. 

[oboat]

2 hours ago, IanM said:

That’s not Thames Head by the way. Thames Head is much further upstream. 

Thanks, did it in a rush.