Government Decision, but C&RT fight to overturn it

[Dave123]

A few points to add to this; 

1) It was comprehensively demonstrated (but I can't find the references) that the cost of closing a canal is close to the cost of maintaining it. You can't just walk away from a canal and stop spending anything on it. Locks would need damming up, embankments and cuttings either complete removal or regular inspection and maintenance anyway. Every watercourse joining a canal (eg sewers and streams) needs diverting or culverting etc etc plus the towpaths would still need maintaining, they couldn't be closed (as was demonstrated during lockdown when various groups of boaters tried this themselves in places). Many canals provide a water supply to sewage works/farms/factories/fiber optic cable cooling so this would need to continue?

2) No one ever discusses the many canal restoration projects when talking of the imminent demise of the CRT navigations. I do wonder if some of the resource put into these should or could be diverted?

3) Am quite concerned by the lack of planned winter closures this year though, so obviously CRT have some idea they are going to be left with little money?

[Rambling Boater]

As the inland waterways benefit all walks of society (walkers, cyclists, fishing, boating etc) and most of the beneficiaries pay tax, it makes sense for some of our tax to be used to subsidise the maintenence of the infrastructure (as it has done up to now).
 
It couid be argued that C&RT waste funds sometimes, but is the real problem that our government are using charities to plug finacial gaps and have become another source of stealth tax (albeit voluntary)?  
 
HS2 will benefit very few tax payers yet the cost of that way exceeds the DEFRA/C&RT subsidy. Maybe HS2 should be solely funded by those who plan to use it?

[Jak]

I like that. Cancel HS2. I can handle an extra 1/2 hour to get to Birmingham. And I’m actually one of the commuters who would benefit from the new services!  Give all the money to CRT 😀

[Machpoint005]

11 minutes ago, Jak said:

I like that. Cancel HS2. I can handle an extra 1/2 hour to get to Birmingham. And I’m actually one of the commuters who would benefit from the new services!  Give all the money to CRT 😀

 

It isn't an extra half hour to get to Birmingham. It's just the same time it takes now to get to London (from Birmingham), but the promised half hour saving in the future won't happen. 

 

 

 

 

[magnetman]

20 minutes ago, Jak said:

I like that. Cancel HS2. I can handle an extra 1/2 hour to get to Birmingham. And I’m actually one of the commuters who would benefit from the new services!  Give all the money to CRT 😀

HS2 was implemented so people could Get Out of Birmingham faster ! 

 

That is the whole point of it other than to line the pockets of certain people who at the time knew the right contacts. 

 

Its a Blair white elephant not a Tory problem. 

 

 

[Orwellian]

52 minutes ago, magnetman said:

Its a Blair white elephant not a Tory problem. 

No it's not. It was announced 2 years after Blair left. So 1 year of Labour and 13 years of support and renewed funding from the Tories.

[Rambling Boater]

52 million grant to CRT per year to maintain 2000 miles of inland waterways.
 
Or
 
4800 million per year for 134 miles of HS2.
 

What would the majory of our tax paying population choose regardless of political persuasion?
 
(Please feel free to correct my figures)
 

 

[magnetman]

49 minutes ago, Orwellian said:

No it's not. It was announced 2 years after Blair left. So 1 year of Labour and 13 years of support and renewed funding from the Tories.

It is though if you look into the history of HS2.

[Orwellian]

3 minutes ago, magnetman said:

It is though if you look into the history of HS2.

 

[MtB]

2 hours ago, Jak said:

I like that. Cancel HS2. I can handle an extra 1/2 hour to get to Birmingham. And I’m actually one of the commuters who would benefit from the new services!  Give all the money to CRT 😀

 

I do find this weird. Most boaters LOVE trains. I certainly do. The more the better. HS2 is a magnificent project. 

 

Or would be if they'd stop cancelling critical bits of it. 

 

 

 

 

[Jak]

I go up to Birmingham by train. The service is ok. Given a choice of saving the entire canal network, or getting to Birmingham 1/2 hour quicker?  Never understood why HS2 represents value for money….

[magnetman]

18 minutes ago, Orwellian said:

 

I know that but don't forget the Labour government where shoveling sheds of money into rail when they were in power. 

 

Momentum (not a political party) makes a difference. 

 

 

For a number of reasons this could be viewed as a Good Thing and I do not maintain a contrary position on this.

 

It was Labour who caused HS2 to happen. Yes the Tories carried on with it but at the end of the day HS2 is a Labour project. 

 

 

 

 

[MtB]

8 minutes ago, Jak said:

I go up to Birmingham by train. The service is ok. Given a choice of saving the entire canal network, or getting to Birmingham 1/2 hour quicker?  Never understood why HS2 represents value for money….

 

Its not a choice though, is it?

 

I've not seen it on offer. 

 

P.S. I never actually go on the trains, I just like seeing them zipping along across the countryside. 

 

 

 

[magnetman]

I use trains for all of my long range transport. 

Keen on disco ! (substitute 'disco' for 'train')

this one! 

 

Go trains!

 

[adam1uk]

9 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

P.S. I never actually go on the trains, I just like seeing them zipping along across the countryside. 

 

 

 

I quite like seeing them too.  It’s hearing them I’m not so keen on.

[Jak]

All this really proves is how very little 50M is in terms of govt spending. King Charles’ coronation also cost more than the annual CRT grant. I am a Royalist. But FFS. Its not a lot of money in those terms. 

[MtB]

Just now, adam1uk said:

I quite like seeing them too.  It’s hearing them I’m not so keen on.

 

Unlike motorways, you hear one then its gone. 

 

I used to love my mooring on the K&A right next to the west country line. 

[Orwellian]

8 minutes ago, magnetman said:

It was Labour who caused HS2 to happen. Yes the Tories carried on with it but at the end of the day HS2 is a Labour project. 

 

You seem intent on ignoring the evidence for some reason. Labour may have suggested it as a worthwhile project but it was the Tories who initially approved it and have continued to support it for the last 11 years despite its vastly escalating costs and at the same time significantly reducing its scope and therefore undermining the initial proposal .

 

 

 

[magnetman]

Momentum. 

HS2 = Labour party. 

 

No way to get away from it. 

 

 

[LadyG]

I don't know which deranged Chancellor ever thought that the estimated costs and timelines would be anything other than a figment of an optimistic imagination.

We don't really need to get from A to B these days.

With current rail strikes it's a high risk strategy.

Assuming A is central London and no one lives in central London, one has to add an extra hour per day for commuting from home , then another hour to get to B, then another twenty minutes in a taxi to Destination D.

I reckon the cost will be something like

travel £100-£200

time lost four hours at £25ph...£100

Arriving at D by 11.00am, an hour for lunch, if one wants to return home by 6pm, depart, (by taxi) 2.00 pm

Time at work two hours!

 

Edited June 24, 2023 by LadyG

[Arthur Marshall]

2 hours ago, magnetman said:

Momentum. 

HS2 = Labour party. 

 

No way to get away from it. 

 

It's true. The state the country's in is entirely down to the Labour Party and what they've been doing for the last dozen years. Rocketing energy costs , spiralling house prices, unaffordable mortgages, ridiculous rents, food banks, street sleepers, all the Labour Party's fault.

Can't deny it.

If only the Conservative Party had been in opposition instead, we'd all be so much better off...

 

Magnetman should leave his comments for the political ghetto, where ignorance is bliss.

[Rambling Boater]

16 minutes ago, Arthur Marshall said:

It's true. The state the country's in is entirely down to the Labour Party and what they've been doing for the last dozen years. Rocketing energy costs , spiralling house prices, unaffordable mortgages, ridiculous rents, food banks, street sleepers, all the Labour Party's fault.

Can't deny it.

If only the Conservative Party had been in opposition instead, we'd all be so much better off...

 

Magnetman should leave his comments for the political ghetto, where ignorance is bliss.

I thought 'New Labour' was the Conservative party? 😉

 

Perhaps this is the problem, there is no alternative for Joe public anymore. We're all doomed I tell you.

 

 

[MtB]

24 minutes ago, Arthur Marshall said:

It's true. The state the country's in is entirely down to the Labour Party and what they've been doing for the last dozen years. Rocketing energy costs , spiralling house prices, unaffordable mortgages, ridiculous rents, food banks, street sleepers, all the Labour Party's fault.

Can't deny it.

If only the Conservative Party had been in opposition instead, we'd all be so much better off...

 

Magnetman should leave his comments for the political ghetto, where ignorance is bliss.

 

Much as many of us hated Boris and thought he'd make a terrible PM even at the time, the thought of Corbyn at the wheel was even more horrifying so through gritted teeth and holding our noses, more of us voted Conservative than Labour. And look what happened. 

 

All this have been avoided had Labour not put up such a hard left fruit loop head case as leader that no-one trusted, so yes you're right. It is all Labour's fault.

[Momac]

On 16/06/2023 at 21:36, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Maybe C&RT have been told they cannot make a CCer pay a licence 5x that of a home moorer, or a fat boat 3x the price of a same lenth NB

Any such plan for increases on that scale was speculation was it not?

 

[MtB]

5 minutes ago, MartynG said:

Any such plan for increases on that scale was speculation was it not?

 

 

It was. 

 

But more pertinently, has Damien clarified yet what this "government decision mentioned above" is, that needs to be reversed?