The 2000W Challenge

[JemShaun]

🤣🤣🤣

[Jess--]

17 hours ago, George and Dragon said:

 

I don't know what the rules are for exporting from a self-installed PV system. No reason you couldn't install it to the required standard but without the necessary paperwork I suspect it becomes more difficult. So, you probably want to invest in storage. That will put your ROI back a little depending on what you get.

All they are really interested in for exporting is that your inverter complies with standards (will shut down if the grid goes down so it doesn't fry people working on lines etc) and that the final connection from your inverter to the grid is made properly.

our plan is to fit all of the panels and the inverter ourselves and get a qualified sparkie in for a final check and to make the final mains connections for sign-off.

 

The 5kw system is what we looked at as that will cover all of our daylight usage for 6 months of the year (exporting a little), cover most ( >70%) of our usage for another 3 months, and some ( <50%) of our usage for the final 3 months (averaging out for solar covering around 75% of our daylight power usage)

 

We did look at battery storage but adding that into the mix didn't really work since most of our usage is during the day while the sun is shining, battery storage is aimed more at households that are out at work during most of the day allowing the battery to charge and be discharged later in the evening when everyone is back from work, for us working from home with the majority of our usage between 10 am & 4 pm we just couldn't make the sums work for battery storage unless we made the whole setup at least double the size (quadrupling the costs because of the cost of batteries & different inverter types needed)

[IanD]

1 hour ago, Jess-- said:

All they are really interested in for exporting is that your inverter complies with standards (will shut down if the grid goes down so it doesn't fry people working on lines etc) and that the final connection from your inverter to the grid is made properly.

our plan is to fit all of the panels and the inverter ourselves and get a qualified sparkie in for a final check and to make the final mains connections for sign-off.

 

The 5kw system is what we looked at as that will cover all of our daylight usage for 6 months of the year (exporting a little), cover most ( >70%) of our usage for another 3 months, and some ( <50%) of our usage for the final 3 months (averaging out for solar covering around 75% of our daylight power usage)

 

We did look at battery storage but adding that into the mix didn't really work since most of our usage is during the day while the sun is shining, battery storage is aimed more at households that are out at work during most of the day allowing the battery to charge and be discharged later in the evening when everyone is back from work, for us working from home with the majority of our usage between 10 am & 4 pm we just couldn't make the sums work for battery storage unless we made the whole setup at least double the size (quadrupling the costs because of the cost of batteries & different inverter types needed)

 

Just be careful, Victron are having problems with feed-in with the new UK regulations, a lot of their gear is not currently certified for this.

 

This has been going on for many months and a lot of people have been screwed by it...

 

https://community.victronenergy.com/questions/160177/victron-inverters-no-longer-approved-for-uk-dno-gr.html

 

Not a problem if you just want to use shoreline power on a boat, but selling power back to the grid is not allowed without certification.

Edited February 24, 2023 by IanD

[Jess--]

2 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

Just be careful, Victron are having problems with feed-in with the new UK regulations, a lot of their gear is not currently certified for this. This has been going on for months and a lot of people have been screwed by it...

 

https://community.victronenergy.com/questions/160177/victron-inverters-no-longer-approved-for-uk-dno-gr.html

We were looking at Growatt or Solis inverters

[IanD]

Just now, Jess-- said:

We were looking at Growatt or Solis inverters

Same issue, make sure they're certified to the latest UK standards.

[churchward]

2 hours ago, Jess-- said:

All they are really interested in for exporting is that your inverter complies with standards (will shut down if the grid goes down so it doesn't fry people working on lines etc) and that the final connection from your inverter to the grid is made properly.

our plan is to fit all of the panels and the inverter ourselves and get a qualified sparkie in for a final check and to make the final mains connections for sign-off.

 

The 5kw system is what we looked at as that will cover all of our daylight usage for 6 months of the year (exporting a little), cover most ( >70%) of our usage for another 3 months, and some ( <50%) of our usage for the final 3 months (averaging out for solar covering around 75% of our daylight power usage)

 

We did look at battery storage but adding that into the mix didn't really work since most of our usage is during the day while the sun is shining, battery storage is aimed more at households that are out at work during most of the day allowing the battery to charge and be discharged later in the evening when everyone is back from work, for us working from home with the majority of our usage between 10 am & 4 pm we just couldn't make the sums work for battery storage unless we made the whole setup at least double the size (quadrupling the costs because of the cost of batteries & different inverter types needed)

I think it is still the case that with a solar panels install above 4.5kw you need permission from the DNO (network owner/manager) to agree your system will not overload the local sub-stations. Depending on who that is it may be free or they will charge for the process. They may optionally wish to come and inspect the system especially if you are fitting any kind of throttle on the max amount of export.

 

Above 4.5kw of solar they can refuse connection but below it is just a matter of registering the installation with them.

 

How to register energy devices in homes or small businesses: guidance for device owners and installation contractors - GOV.UK (www.gov.uk)

Edited February 24, 2023 by churchward

[IanD]

10 minutes ago, churchward said:

I think it is still the case that with a solar panels install above 4.5kw you need permission from the DNO (network owner/manager) to agree your system will not overload the local sub-stations. Depending on who that is it may be free or they will charge for the process. They may optionally wish to come and inspect the system especially if you are fitting any kind of throttle on the max amount of export.

 

Above 4.5kw of solar they can refuse connection but below it is just a matter of registering the installation with them.

 

How to register energy devices in homes or small businesses: guidance for device owners and installation contractors - GOV.UK (www.gov.uk)

 

The new rules on feed-in certification apply to all sizes of inverters -- IIRC the issue that's causing the problem is not directly to do with power levels, it's to do with frequency/voltage stability and at what point feed-in has to stop. It seems to be a bigger problem for (heavy) 50Hz transformer-based kit like Victron than (light) high-frequency inverters, but other manufacturers have had problems too -- see the link I posted.

 

If the inverter doesn't have the latest certification you won't be allowed to use it for feed-in no matter how big it is or what limit is set on feed-in power.

Edited February 24, 2023 by IanD

[churchward]

Just now, IanD said:

 

The new rules on feed-in certification apply to all sizes of inverters -- IIRC the issue that's causing the problem is not directly to do with power levels, it's to do with frequency/voltage stability and at what point feed-in has to stop. It seems to be a bigger problem for (heavy) 50Hz transformer-based kit like Victron than (light) high-frequency inverters, but other manufacturers have had problems too -- see the link I posted.

 

If the inverter doesn't have the latest certification you won't be allowed to use it for feed-in no matter how big it is.

Sure, but I was not talking about inverters but the size of the panel array.  above 4.5kw they require an application and DNO permission to connect before the installation @4.5kw or below you need to register the installation but permission to connect is not required from the DNO.  

 

There are indeed equipment standards to observe too and the DNO can insist on an on-site inspection if they wish to.

[IanD]

11 minutes ago, churchward said:

Sure, but I was not talking about inverters but the size of the panel array.  above 4.5kw they require an application and DNO permission to connect before the installation @4.5kw or below you need to register the installation but permission to connect is not required from the DNO.  

 

There are indeed equipment standards to observe too and the DNO can insist on an on-site inspection if they wish to.

 

AFAIK (but I might be wrong...) it's not *connection* that's the problem, so long as you don't back-feed to the grid you can install any size of inverter and solar panels that you want (and connect the inverter to the grid), they don't care -- for example I can put a 7kW inverter and 7kW of panels onto a boat and plug it into a 30A shoreline and nobody is any the wiser.

 

If you want to use feed-in from solar then you need an application and permission to do this above 4.5kW, but to enable feed-in via the inverter -- regardless of power level -- it has to be certified (the latest version) and have a country code, otherwise it's only allowed to draw power out of the grid. And obviously at any power level you need a feed-in tariff agreed with the supplies... 😉

 

This is *not* a trivial problem right now, there are lots of people who've spent a lot of money on Victron gear (and solar) only to find that they can't actually use it right now for feed-in because of the (much longer than suggested) delays to certification -- and it's even possible that some of it will never be certified, thought this could be scaremongering.

 

If you dispute this, I suggest you go and read the (many) threads about it on the Victron community forums.

[magnetman]

I didn't think electric bollards beside moorings will allow grid feed from solar. Maybe they will? 

 

 

 

[IanD]

3 minutes ago, magnetman said:

I didn't think electric bollards beside moorings will allow grid feed from solar. Maybe they will?

 

They won't because they're not set up (or metered?) to allow it.

 

The point is that you can connect anything you want to the grid, including a system with any amount of solar (DC or AC) on the customer side of an inverter, and so long as the inverter doesn't allow feed-in -- so you only *consume* power -- you're fine.

 

As soon as you want to be able to export back to the grid it all gets a whole lot more restrictive (hence the certification issues being seen recently), irrespective of power level. If you want to do this as higher power levels then it gets more restrictive still, because they don't want your exports screwing up their grid...

[churchward]

20 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

AFAIK (but I might be wrong...) it's not *connection* that's the problem, so long as you don't back-feed to the grid you can install any size of inverter and solar panels that you want (and connect the inverter to the grid), they don't care -- for example I can put a 7kW inverter and 7kW of panels onto a boat and plug it into a 30A shoreline and nobody is any the wiser.

 

I cannot say about boats but for houses If you want to use feed-in from solar then you need an application and permission to do this above 4.5kW, but to enable feed-in via the inverter -- regardless of power level -- it has to be certified (the latest version) and have a country code, otherwise it's only allowed to draw power out of the grid. And obviously at any power level you need a feed-in tariff agreed with the supplies... 😉

 

This is *not* a trivial problem right now, there are lots of people who've spent a lot of money on Victron gear (and solar) only to find that they can't actually use it right now for feed-in because of the (much longer than suggested) delays to certification -- and it's even possible that some of it will never be certified, thought this could be scaremongering.

 

If you dispute this, I suggest you go and read the (many) threads about it on the Victron community forums.

Not from what I have read lately and for clarity I am talking about a grid-connected domestic system not one independent of the grid.  It is a hard legislative cut-off @4.5kw (actually it may be 3680w for a single phase now) all above that need prior registration and permission from the DNO.  Below you need to complete G98 forms as registration and above G99. Not all but some DNO's charge for the approval of G99 forms/installations.

 

DNOs For Solar Panels | G98 & G99 Applications | Deege Solar

 

If you are installing a large-scale solar system, greater than 16A per phase, you will need to apply for DNO approval prior to installation. This is because the grid needs to determine whether your local distributor can handle the extra load. The process of the DNO reviewing your application can take between 8 to 12 weeks. If you are installing Distributed Generation equipment rated at 50kW or higher, you will need to complete a Standard Application Form (SAF).

Edited February 24, 2023 by churchward

[George and Dragon]

2 hours ago, Jess-- said:

We were looking at Growatt or Solis inverters

I have a Solis inverter. I'm sure it's much better than the supplied monitoring software/interface makes it appear. Solis cloud is updated every 5 minutes, our new smart meter updates every 10 seconds. I've seen the smart meter saying we're exporting 3.4kW while the Solis cloud says we're generating 170W.

There's a status page on the actual inverter but the login credentials have obviously been updated since this was written.

[IanD]

1 hour ago, churchward said:

Not from what I have read lately and for clarity I am talking about a grid-connected domestic system not one independent of the grid.  It is a hard legislative cut-off @4.5kw (actually it may be 3680w for a single phase now) all above that need prior registration and permission from the DNO.  Below you need to complete G98 forms as registration and above G99. Not all but some DNO's charge for the approval of G99 forms/installations.

 

DNOs For Solar Panels | G98 & G99 Applications | Deege Solar

 

If you are installing a large-scale solar system, greater than 16A per phase, you will need to apply for DNO approval prior to installation. This is because the grid needs to determine whether your local distributor can handle the extra load. The process of the DNO reviewing your application can take between 8 to 12 weeks. If you are installing Distributed Generation equipment rated at 50kW or higher, you will need to complete a Standard Application Form (SAF).

 

And that is for G98 and G99 applications, meaning grid-tied ones which can feed power back into the grid i.e. most UK residential solar installation, and what all the Victron approval brouhaha is about (G99).

 

If you're not feeding back into the grid, it wouldn't matter if you had 100kW of solar because it doesn't place any load on the grid in either direction.

[IanD]

47 minutes ago, George and Dragon said:

I have a Solis inverter. I'm sure it's much better than the supplied monitoring software/interface makes it appear. Solis cloud is updated every 5 minutes, our new smart meter updates every 10 seconds. I've seen the smart meter saying we're exporting 3.4kW while the Solis cloud says we're generating 170W.

There's a status page on the actual inverter but the login credentials have obviously been updated since this was written.

Out of curiosity, when was that installed and certified, and under what version of the regulations?

 

The regulations were changed last year (September?) and equipment which met them (and was certified) previous to that date doesn't necessarily meet them any more, which is the hole Victron are in -- they thought recertification would be quick and easy (a slam-dunk) and told customers so, but it turned out to be slow and difficult, with some equipment being rejected.

 

If yours was installed before the rule change and Solis haven't recertified it, you should hope that your DNO doesn't cotton on to this or they may refuse to allow power export any more -- exactly as has happened to some Victron users... 😞

 

Of course if it has been recertified you don't have any problem, so I sincerely hope that's the case 🙂

Edited February 24, 2023 by IanD

[Jess--]

47 minutes ago, George and Dragon said:

I have a Solis inverter. I'm sure it's much better than the supplied monitoring software/interface makes it appear. Solis cloud is updated every 5 minutes, our new smart meter updates every 10 seconds. I've seen the smart meter saying we're exporting 3.4kW while the Solis cloud says we're generating 170W.

There's a status page on the actual inverter but the login credentials have obviously been updated since this was written.

I have meddled with a pair of 10kw solis inverters (+ 24kw of batteries) and agree that the 5 minute reporting is terrible, however the data format used between the solis inverters and their dataloggers (which they use to upload data to soliscloud) is known, with the format being known it can be intercepted and read in near realtime as long as I am happy to build my own monitoring solution.

 

snapshot below from one of the 2 solis inverters I have access to (not my electric bill thankfully)

 

Edited to add..

these solis inverters were installed in Dec of last year but are being replaced later this year with a new single solis 20kw hybrid inverter as a pair of 10kw hybrid inverters really don't play nicely with each other.

Edited February 24, 2023 by Jess--

[churchward]

20 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

And that is for G98 and G99 applications, meaning grid-tied ones which can feed power back into the grid i.e. most UK residential solar installation, and what all the Victron approval brouhaha is about (G99).

 

If you're not feeding back into the grid, it wouldn't matter if you had 100kW of solar because it doesn't place any load on the grid in either direction.

Yes of course but as I have been at pains to point out but not perceived by you grid-tied is all I was talking about.

 

One may run into planning laws for a 100KW system though.

 

as I said above

 

"for clarity I am talking about a grid-connected domestic system not one independent of the grid. "

 

[IanD]

12 minutes ago, churchward said:

Yes of course but as I have been at pains to point out but not perceived by you grid-tied is all I was talking about.

 

One may run into planning laws for a 100KW system though.

 

as I said above

 

"for clarity I am talking about a grid-connected domestic system not one independent of the grid. "

 

Good, we agree then 🙂

 

Perhaps I misinterpreted your "Not from what I've read lately" then, since I clearly distinguished between the two cases... 😉

 

Anyway, the issues with the certification rule change last year remains -- not all equipment which was compliant before it still is after it, including some equipment still being installed today because not all installers have cottoned on to this. Go and read the Victron community threads, I'm not just making this up or scaremongering, people (in the UK and elsewhere) are having legal disputes with their installers because they can't do what was promised.

 

People whose equipment is certified to the latest rules (e.g. the Solis inverters mentioned above?) will be fine, but some others not so much... 😞

Edited February 24, 2023 by IanD

[MtB]

On 22/02/2023 at 21:47, Jen-in-Wellies said:

Focusing on energy use and 2000W is the wrong place. It is where that 2000W is coming from, what resources are used in providing it, what it is used to do and what happens to any byproducts that is the thing. Some one with a life style that is using 4000W all in from solar power for everything, using reused and recycled matter to do it is being a lot greener than some one using 2000W from burning fossil fuels and using lots of single use plastic say. The proportion of sunlight we currently convert, via solar pv, thermal and wind power is a rounding error compared with what is illuminating the planet. Even running our entire planetary civilisation on it will still be tiny. The big challenge for a long term civilisation is getting circular use of matter, not energy.

 

And getting people to grasp and understand this is gonna be the hardest bit. 

 

Witness you only have one greenie, and that was from me! 

 

 

[George and Dragon]

4 hours ago, IanD said:

Out of curiosity, when was that installed and certified, and under what version of the regulations?

 

25 Jan 2023.

[George and Dragon]

2 hours ago, MtB said:

Witness you only have one greenie, and that was from me! 

 

Two. Sorry I missed the post as I was scrolling through.

 

And, of course the world's population has increased by something like 33% since the 80s. 2000Wh seems quite generous.

[cuthound]

On 22/02/2023 at 15:16, jonesthenuke said:

Should you also allow for use of the energy guzzling internet? Just browsing this forum uses energy.

 

 

Indeed. The last data centre I worked on over 10 years go had two incoming mains supplies rated at 66MVA (one was a redundant spare).

 

Presumably the ones they are building today are even bigger.

[ditchcrawler]

Data centers keep energy use steady despite big growth – DW – 01/24/2022

 

Currently there are 7.2 million data centers in the world, according to the German statistics office. The US has 2,670, by far the most. They are followed by the UK with 452, Germany with 443, China, the Netherlands, Australia, Canada, France and Japan.

Data centers need electricity to run their equipment. They also need a lot of it to keep the machines cool. Just how much electricity all these data centers use is up for debate.

Currently, many experts estimate that data storage and transmission in and from data centers use 1% of global electricity. This share has hardly changed since 2010, even though the number of internet users has doubled and global internet traffic has increased 15-fold since, according to the International Energy Agency.

[cuthound]

1 hour ago, ditchcrawler said:

Data centers keep energy use steady despite big growth – DW – 01/24/2022

 

Currently there are 7.2 million data centers in the world, according to the German statistics office. The US has 2,670, by far the most. They are followed by the UK with 452, Germany with 443, China, the Netherlands, Australia, Canada, France and Japan.

Data centers need electricity to run their equipment. They also need a lot of it to keep the machines cool. Just how much electricity all these data centers use is up for debate.

Currently, many experts estimate that data storage and transmission in and from data centers use 1% of global electricity. This share has hardly changed since 2010, even though the number of internet users has doubled and global internet traffic has increased 15-fold since, according to the International Energy Agency.

 

The data centre planners I worked with 10 years ago were very conservative.

 

Since 1980 BT had used fresh air to cool its equipment for 85% of the year, but when I suggested it to the data centre planners they were very negative.

 

Perhaps the current energy crisis will persuade them to consider less wasteful ways of cooling?

[ditchcrawler]

22 minutes ago, cuthound said:

 

The data centre planners I worked with 10 years ago were very conservative.

 

Since 1980 BT had used fresh air to cool its equipment for 85% of the year, but when I suggested it to the data centre planners they were very negative.

 

Perhaps the current energy crisis will persuade them to consider less wasteful ways of cooling?

Build them beside canals and use the water