Adding a second bilge pump?

[Alan de Enfield]

2 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

I have just found out they historically Norfolk measurements were often different to the rest of the country, both area and weight

 

Maybe that's because they used their fingers to count, and could easily manage their 12x tables.

[Tony1]

1 minute ago, Tracy D'arth said:

Sounds like its the dump pipe from the PRV as Tony suspects and if so it definitely needs investigating before it costs you big money replacing the calorifier. Do you have an expansion bottle on the hot water pipes anywhere? Is there an accumulator and a NR valve  on the cold feed to the calorifier?

 

Thanks Tracy, I'll have a look, but I dont recall seeing anything like an expansion bottle in the vicinity of the immersion heater. 

 

I do know the main water supply from the water pump doesn't have an accumulator (its something I've been thinking about), but I'll get some photos of the immersion tank later, and perhaps see if you can understand the setup of it enough to tell. 

 

 

[agg221]

Given the choice, I suspect all of us would rather have no water in our boats than some water. There is probably a sort of absolute point of 'too much water' which is relatively objective and measurable by sinking or damage to fixtures and fittings, followed by 'more water than I would like' which is where it comes in and makes a mess (we currently have that from the vent fitting in the bathroom and an annoying but unidentified source which is running down the engine bay sides a bit). Beyond that there is a law of diminishing returns, but where there is a practical fit and forget solution it is probably worth doing as reality dictates that anything which requires human intervention will eventually either be forgotten or circumstances will prevent it from being done, giving you consequences you would rather not have.

 

With regard to the specific question of a second bilge pump solution, there is a cost/benefit analysis to be done here. If it keeps the bilge dry enough by doing so that it makes a real difference then it is probably worth it against the cost of buying and installing it and the risk of it causing a further problem if a skin fitting gets broken off, which I would regard as minimal if you can tuck it in near a rubbing strip and it is well above waterline.

 

From my own experience, I would perhaps go further and use the second bilge pump to plumb any other definite, predictable sources of leakage in to. I used our boat as a base for a business trip in November, just an overnight stay as it was convenient for a meeting the next morning and gave me a chance to check on it. I was planning to change the fuel filters, but actually went on board to find a couple of inches of water across the entire stern section. Briefly, I was that highly effective bilge pump of a panicking man with a bucket) and I then spent several hours lifting floors and removing as much as I could with a sponge and bucket, and cursing the fact that this had happened in the cold and wet part of the year so drying it out properly was going to be extremely slow and difficult compared with the extended dry spell over the summer.

 

I then worked out what had happened. We had been out for a few days at the end of October. When we returned to the mooring we went through the usual series of actions, including a turn on the stern greaser to 'firm'. The stern shape on our boat does not make inspection of the stern greaser easy at all (you can't see below it) and the entry point for the grease tube is on the bottom. During his 'refurbishment' one of the corners which the PO had cut was not replacing the plastic tube, which being over 20yrs old had become brittle and split, so grease was not being pumped into the stern tube, but you couldn't see that because it was on the underside. The tube had therefore started to drip slightly, only about once every 30 seconds or so, so not obvious, but over the three weeks that had put about 4 gallons of water into the boat. There is a catch tub under the stern tube with a second bilge pump in it, but the pump had failed and the tub had overflowed, hence the water in the bilge. 4 gallons is not that much - annoying and messy but nothing more. It had not reached the level to trigger the main bilge pump which would have dealt with it if more had come in. I also moved the placement of the main pump so that it would trigger slightly earlier while I was at it (our boat has a slight V bottom and by moving some ballast around I could get it right to the bottom of the V).

 

We were not actually in danger of sinking as the main pump would have kicked in, but the boat is now damp over winter in a way that it would not have been and time has been spent fixing that rather than things I would rather have been fixing, and we have to have the floors up which is not ideal for moving around by walking over the ballast (particularly during a night-time trip to the heads where there is a serious risk of stubbed toes!)

 

The relevance of this is that if I was doing what Tony is proposing I would also add a catch pot under the stern gland, where the water is unlikely to contain any debris, and plumb that with a pipe part way up the container, running down to the catch pot under the steps which contained the second bilge pump. That way, a leak on the stern gland would be noticeable because the catch pot would contain water up to the level of the drain pipe, and I would have a second level of protection because it would be dealt with by the secondary pump, unless that failed in which case the primary pump would deal with it, and there would be a lot less mess to deal with if it starts to weep.

 

Alec

Edited January 14, 2023 by agg221

[Tony Brooks]

Just now, Tony1 said:

 

Thanks Tracy, I'll have a look, but I dont recall seeing anything like an expansion bottle in the vicinity of the immersion heater. 

 

I do know the main water supply from the water pump doesn't have an accumulator (its something I've been thinking about), but I'll get some photos of the immersion tank later, and perhaps see if you can understand the setup of it enough to tell. 

 

 

 

Any accumulator or expansion bottles could be located almost anywhere in the boat where there is plumbing. The accumulator near the pump and the expansion vessel near the calorifier is just common practice and not written in stone. I doubt a photo of the immersion heater tank without the associated pipe work will help much but we may be able to see the colour of the pipe on the PRV, if the PRV is shown.

[magnetman]

I like a bit of oil in the engine bilges. Keeps them from rusting. 

 

On my inspection launch canal boat there is a high bulkhead but the boat builder still opted to fit a cabin bilge pump. This was very useful when some scumbag broke in and among other things stole the shurflo water pump. Contents of water tank ended up under floor at the stern. Switch on the dedicated bilge pump (unused in a decade until then). 

 

Quite good to have extra pumps but I dislike cutting new holes in boats. 

Edited January 14, 2023 by magnetman

[Tracy D'arth]

14 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

I have just found out they historically Norfolk measurements were often different to the rest of the country, both area and weight

The Stockport gill is half a pint instead of the usual quarter pint. Be aware if buying Robinson's Old Tom in Stockport!

[Tony1]

2 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

Any accumulator or expansion bottles could be located almost anywhere in the boat where there is plumbing. The accumulator near the pump and the expansion vessel near the calorifier is just common practice and not written in stone. I doubt a photo of the immersion heater tank without the associated pipe work will help much but we may be able to see the colour of the pipe on the PRV, if the PRV is shown.

 

Hi Tony, here are some pics of the general area around the white pipe I mentioned, including some showing the white pipes that come across from the Eberspacher unit, and one of the immersion/calorifier, showing the piping which is labelled- including one pipe labelled Bilge, which I suspect is the one coming out to the engine bay, and occasionally dripping. 

If some preventive fixing is need to reduce the risk of damaging the calorifier, I want to get that done as soon as reasonably possible- although if it can wait two months, I will be nearer to Nantwich and will have more options for professionals who can do the work. 

 

I don't think there is an accumulator tank or similar in the hot water system, I've had a look around the likely places over the months, and not seen anything looking like a small tank- it mainly seems to be just the calorifier and the piping. 

 

ETA- there is a black hose about an inch diameter you can see coming from the bottom of the Eberspacher and hanging into the funnel I put there. I've never seen it dripping, but I assumed It was an overspill of some sort to put it in there just in case. 

 

Edited January 14, 2023 by Tony1

[ditchcrawler]

31 minutes ago, Tony1 said:

 

Hi Tony, here are some pics of the general area around the white pipe I mentioned, including some showing the white pipes that come across from the Eberspacher unit, and one of the immersion/calorifier, showing the piping which is labelled- including one pipe labelled Bilge, which I suspect is the one coming out to the engine bay, and occasionally dripping. 

If some preventive fixing is need to reduce the risk of damaging the calorifier, I want to get that done as soon as reasonably possible- although if it can wait two months, I will be nearer to Nantwich and will have more options for professionals who can do the work. 

 

I don't think there is an accumulator tank or similar in the hot water system, I've had a look around the likely places over the months, and not seen anything looking like a small tank- it mainly seems to be just the calorifier and the piping. 

 

ETA- there is a black hose about an inch diameter you can see coming from the bottom of the Eberspacher and hanging into the funnel I put there. I've never seen it dripping, but I assumed It was an overspill of some sort to put it in there just in case. 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

24 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

 

 

Good spot. 

 

It even says (labelled) that it runs to the bilge.

 

What is the 'black knob' on the top pipe labelled "Hot Out",  there is another 'arrow' behind it ?

[Tony1]

Just now, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

Good spot. 

 

It even says (labelled) that it runs to the bilge.

 

What is the 'black knob' on the top pipe labelled "Hot Out",  there is another 'arrow' behind it ?

Good point, I'll get a pic of the wording of that from above 

[Tony Brooks]

This seems to open up another an of worms. I assume the calorifier is horizontal and both the photo and the 13 amp socket are the right way up.

 

I can see a pair of grey and a pair of white pipes positioned horizontally, one above an done below the immersion heater. I think these are the engine heating coil and the central heating heating coll as expected.

 

The long brass thing at the top seems, by looking at images on the Surecal website, to be a thermostatic mixing valve with the hot outlet behind it and using the braided hose to supply cold water to the mixing valve cold inlet.

 

If you look at the images on https://www.surejust.co.uk/surecal       you will see the PRV with a red knob, I think I can just see a small part f the red knob behind the pipes. What I can't see is any PRV vent hose and the stain on the floor suggest there might not be one.

 

The central heating boiler seems to be mounted on the side of an internal compartments. if this is a semi-trad or if that compartment is a battery box then the black hose coming out of it is probably only a drain, so a bit like the step problem.

 

The smaller whit hose on the other side seems to be connected to another interior compartment unless it is the housing for the steps. If so  it is eh drain you are concerned about.

 

You minimize potential damage to the calorifier by either fitting an expansion vessel into a hot pipe (preferred option) or ensuring there is no NRV between the calorifier and cold inlet pipe and fitting an accumulator in the cold pipe. This is not ideal but will work by using spare expansion space in the unit to accommodate water expelled from the calorifier when heated. (I did mine like that and it lasted 20 years).

8 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

Good spot. 

 

It even says (labelled) that it runs to the bilge.

 

What is the 'black knob' on the top pipe labelled "Hot Out",  there is another 'arrow' behind it ?

 

Thermostatic mixing valve.

[Alan de Enfield]

I'm not sure I'd like - NO I definitely don't like a 230v AC socket that close to water pipes.

 

Far to much chance of a 'push fit pipe' coming apart, or the  PRV squirting water around.

[ditchcrawler]

40 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

Good spot. 

 

It even says (labelled) that it runs to the bilge.

 

What is the 'black knob' on the top pipe labelled "Hot Out",  there is another 'arrow' behind it ?

I would say its the mixer so you don't get scalding water out

[Tony1]

40 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

This seems to open up another an of worms. I assume the calorifier is horizontal and both the photo and the 13 amp socket are the right way up.

 

I can see a pair of grey and a pair of white pipes positioned horizontally, one above an done below the immersion heater. I think these are the engine heating coil and the central heating heating coll as expected.

 

The long brass thing at the top seems, by looking at images on the Surecal website, to be a thermostatic mixing valve with the hot outlet behind it and using the braided hose to supply cold water to the mixing valve cold inlet.

 

If you look at the images on https://www.surejust.co.uk/surecal       you will see the PRV with a red knob, I think I can just see a small part f the red knob behind the pipes. What I can't see is any PRV vent hose and the stain on the floor suggest there might not be one.

 

The central heating boiler seems to be mounted on the side of an internal compartments. if this is a semi-trad or if that compartment is a battery box then the black hose coming out of it is probably only a drain, so a bit like the step problem.

 

The smaller whit hose on the other side seems to be connected to another interior compartment unless it is the housing for the steps. If so  it is eh drain you are concerned about.

 

You minimize potential damage to the calorifier by either fitting an expansion vessel into a hot pipe (preferred option) or ensuring there is no NRV between the calorifier and cold inlet pipe and fitting an accumulator in the cold pipe. This is not ideal but will work by using spare expansion space in the unit to accommodate water expelled from the calorifier when heated. (I did mine like that and it lasted 20 years).

 

Thanks Tony- here are a few more pics of the calorifier (sited under the bed), that might help to shed some light on the pipes setup.

 

The CH boiler is in the engine bay, on the same side as the entry steps- on the floor below the eberspacher you can see my 10 litre water catchment jug with its funnel. 

The white pipe that sometimes drips is on the other side of the engine bay, underneath the deck locker.

 

The pipes coming out the calorifier are pointing aft towards the engine bay. 

The grey pipes then turn and go forwards towards the taps/sinks etc, and the three white pipes go into the engine bay. 

 

Once again thanks every much to you and the other folks for your advice- I will contact some boat fixer chaps who are good with plumbing, and see if I can get a few quotes.

I'd rather get an expansion vessel fitted when I'm off the Llangollen, and minimise any stresses (and potential risk) to the calorifier. 

 

If its just a straight fitting of a new thing into the hot water pipe using pushfit tubes etc, I'd consider having a go myself, but I might get air into the pipes, or make some other cockup, so I'm a bit hesitant.

 

 

Edited January 14, 2023 by Tony1

[ditchcrawler]

Have you found anything that looks like this it could be blue or even white

 

[Tony1]

1 minute ago, ditchcrawler said:

Have you found anything that looks like this it could be blue or even white

 

 

Thanks Brian- no , I've previously looked in all the cupboards, under the bed and in the engine bay, there wasnt anything like that about. I will have another check anyway, just in case

 

[Tony Brooks]

Two f the white pipes will run to the engine, one of the pairs horizontally opposite to each other. The other pair will run to where they join the central heating pipework.

 

 

 

The pipe marked A is probably the PRV vent pipe, so where does it go to.  It is likely to drip whenever the calorifier is heated.

[Tony1]

2 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

Two f the white pipes will run to the engine, one of the pairs horizontally opposite to each other. The other pair will run to where they join the central heating pipework.

 

 

 

The pipe marked A is probably the PRV vent pipe, so where does it go to.  It is likely to drip whenever the calorifier is heated.

 

 

All three of those white pipes go out to the engine. 

I think two of them are connected to the eberspacher and the third is the drain pipe. 

 

Would this do the job:

https://www.screwfix.com/p/redring-expansion-vessel-2ltr/3235v

 

There are screwfix branches all over the place so I could get hold of one of these fairly soon, plus any connectors that it might need.

Do you know what pipe it would insert into?

 

 

 

 

 

[Tony Brooks]

3 minutes ago, Tony1 said:

 

 

All three of those white pipes go out to the engine. 

I think two of them are connected to the eberspacher and the third is the drain pipe. 

 

Would this do the job:

https://www.screwfix.com/p/redring-expansion-vessel-2ltr/3235v

 

There are screwfix branches all over the place so I could get hold of one of these fairly soon, plus any connectors that it might need.

Do you know what pipe it would insert into?

 

 

 

 

 

 

I don't think so, it probably has no internal corrosion projection because it relies on corrosion inhibitor in the boiler water. Screwfix do supply potable expansion vessels.

 

 

[Tony1]

13 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

I don't think so, it probably has no internal corrosion projection because it relies on corrosion inhibitor in the boiler water. Screwfix do supply potable expansion vessels.

 

 

 

Ebay has cheaper versions by Redring, and I can get one in 3 days. Is this the correct type?

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/144853672444?hash=item21b9f3a1fc:g:z-wAAOSw6bViy2O4&amdata=enc%3AAQAHAAAAwONdnyUc9nSiGQT0bEFBnu0oSnwTzjwyhFGkbitm4NHawgBtXLBBDMVRKCF35AmEdbCIYSMRaTGWUmuypq15Ef0Ih4SsPYgHmBZzSCRdmEsAMzG%2Fqep5k7GFxUMW3lVtkbsG6aF6ginFcyxSQBuiYV0s6EwQguWlqZ0c2%2Fucc2h%2FFDoEk0PuoQLrhUrLYrbcoUZ8ms%2BKOBUQkmRUugKguy63lcMaufLZ5EyGnD5o9xjWPY9xqBvWDFcFRNsuIRaJ5g%3D%3D|tkp%3ABk9SR8jUqpC2YQ

 

Am I right in thinking this gadget is inserted into the pipe using some sort of T junction? 

I'd need a fitting kit as well, I would guess, to hold it secure on the wall. 

There are a few boaters not too far away who might be familiar with this sort of job, and might help me to fit this kind of thing. 

 

 

 

[magnetman]

You will need a wall plate tee for it 

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/122981629279

 

Of the correct size 

 

 

And PTFE tape for the thread. 

Edited January 14, 2023 by magnetman

[Tony Brooks]

13 minutes ago, Tony1 said:

 

Ebay has cheaper versions by Redring, and I can get one in 3 days. Is this the correct type?

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/144853672444?hash=item21b9f3a1fc:g:z-wAAOSw6bViy2O4&amdata=enc%3AAQAHAAAAwONdnyUc9nSiGQT0bEFBnu0oSnwTzjwyhFGkbitm4NHawgBtXLBBDMVRKCF35AmEdbCIYSMRaTGWUmuypq15Ef0Ih4SsPYgHmBZzSCRdmEsAMzG%2Fqep5k7GFxUMW3lVtkbsG6aF6ginFcyxSQBuiYV0s6EwQguWlqZ0c2%2Fucc2h%2FFDoEk0PuoQLrhUrLYrbcoUZ8ms%2BKOBUQkmRUugKguy63lcMaufLZ5EyGnD5o9xjWPY9xqBvWDFcFRNsuIRaJ5g%3D%3D|tkp%3ABk9SR8jUqpC2YQ

 

Am I right in thinking this gadget is inserted into the pipe using some sort of T junction? 

I'd need a fitting kit as well, I would guess, to hold it secure on the wall. 

There are a few boaters not too far away who might be familiar with this sort of job, and might help me to fit this kind of thing. 

 

 

 

 

Fit using the piece using Magnetman linked to. The data in the link does NOT say POTABLE so is probably not suitable. It is also NOT by Redwing so a typical Ebay con. Search for "potable expansion vessel" on Ebay and make sure the  data says "potable".

 

If you are using compression fittings into plastic pipe make sure that you use metal pipe inserts. The plastic inserts often squash down when the pipe gets hot and then leak.

[Tony1]

52 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

Fit using the piece using Magnetman linked to. The data in the link does NOT say POTABLE so is probably not suitable. It is also NOT by Redwing so a typical Ebay con. Search for "potable expansion vessel" on Ebay and make sure the  data says "potable".

 

If you are using compression fittings into plastic pipe make sure that you use metal pipe inserts. The plastic inserts often squash down when the pipe gets hot and then leak.

 

Thanks a lot Tony, much appreciated. 

I might just get the screwfix one to be sure its half decent quality, ebay can be a minefield at times. 

 

I must say it is a bit disappointing to see that boat builders are selling boats without one of these expansion vessels built in. For a saving of maybe £50 it seems like you are creating a situation with unnecessary stress on the calorifier, that could potentially shorten its lifespan significantly- and would cost hundreds to put right. 

 

 

[cuthound]

2 hours ago, ditchcrawler said:

I would say its the mixer so you don't get scalding water out

 

Definitely, and they effectively increase the capacity of the calorifier as the water comes out at a useable temperature, rather than having to be mixed with cooler water once the hot water is alrady out of the calorifier.

[magnetman]

6 minutes ago, Tony1 said:

 

Thanks a lot Tony, much appreciated. 

I might just get the screwfix one to be sure its half decent quality, ebay can be a minefield at times. 

 

I must say it is a bit disappointing to see that boat builders are selling boats without one of these expansion vessels built in. For a saving of maybe £50 it seems like you are creating a situation with unnecessary stress on the calorifier, that could potentially shorten its lifespan significantly- and would cost hundreds to put right. 

 

 

Have you checked everywhere ? Quite often this item (accumulator/expansion vessel) will be in the same place as the water pump rather than beside the calorifier. 

 

You probably have checked but it seems worth asking. 

Edited January 14, 2023 by magnetman